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Events and Competitions (All Model Categories) => Event Announcements => Topic started by: billdennis747 on August 14, 2019, 06:35:06 AM



Title: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 14, 2019, 06:35:06 AM
Not long now, so a reminder that the closing date for entries is Friday16th August, received at the office.
 I have foolishly entered 3 classes but only have two hands this year, so:
WANTED... FF Scale assistant (need not be glamorous). Duties:
-carrying stuff to and from flightline Sat and Sun evening
-holding rubber model for winding
-protecting models from tramplers
-retrieval/collection and bagging of bits
-if a model goes rogue on takeoff and heads for mine in the pits, you will be expected to dive in front of it.
Apply on the day, please

Should be a good one this year; at least 3 expected from the Antipodes
Bill


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Yak 52 on August 14, 2019, 06:53:10 AM
What is the competiton date and venue please Bill?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 14, 2019, 07:13:10 AM
24, 25, 26 August Barkston Heath, with the FF scale on Sat and Sun evening 6pm, when the wind will have dropped to a mere whisper


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: 3view on August 15, 2019, 12:17:46 PM
I too need a helper, so if you fail to make the cut to becoming Bills assistant you could always try me?

Your duties would include all of the above as well as operating the motor cut-out device for a large electric model.

Only entered 2 classes...………. what a lightweight!

Steve


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: kkphantom on August 16, 2019, 04:33:23 AM
Is there a programme of some sort? I have trouble finding anything on the BMFA website. What order do the classes fly in, or is it a bit of a free for all? Is kit scale held at these nats or just super scale? Sorry for all the questions, my first nats and of course I've left everything til the last minute.
Gary


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on August 16, 2019, 04:42:03 AM
Coincidentally, this was recently posted on Facebook.
This is a low resolution download


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on August 16, 2019, 04:44:05 AM
Free flight scale after 6pm on Saturday and Sunday as stated bottom left in the program.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 16, 2019, 04:51:06 AM
OK, the August Nats is totally different to the May Nats. The entire airfield is taken up with control line and radio activity and there is no chance of FF flying in the daytime. There are ropes everywhere.
The FF scale events are therefore on Sat and Sun evenings at 6pm when the RC 'stops' and we get 'permission' to fly. It is just the three 'superscale' (so-called) events. The static judging takes place during the day on Saturday in the RC scale tent and you are free to look in.
The May Nats is where we have the flying only and kit scale events.
You may wonder why we fly these events in August - one of the many reasons is that there is simply not the time to fit it all in.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 16, 2019, 05:22:44 AM
“You may wonder why we fly these events in August...”
 Also, in August, there are already some expert RC scale chappies on hand to judge the free flight for us.

Having been to the August nats already, the first time I went to the May nats I could hardly believe it was the same place. All the noise, tents, cars, and loud sweaty fat blokes had been replaced by acres of grass and a few curlews. That said, I do love the August event too. Totally different feel to any other scale FF event, but wonderful.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 16, 2019, 05:49:48 AM
“You may wonder why we fly these events in August...”
 Also, in August, there are already some expert RC scale chappies on hand to judge the free flight for us.
In truth, that's the other main reason.
Also, over the last 50 years, the weather is better in August.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: kkphantom on August 16, 2019, 08:36:17 AM
I think I'll give these nats a miss then...the May nats sounds more like my scene and presently I only have my almost completed Aristocrat to fly and I really want to go to the Peterborough flying aces the weekend after the August do.
Have to keep the hire cars down to a minimum!
Gary


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on August 16, 2019, 10:18:59 AM
Everybody should come to the Peterborough Flying Aces! .... well before I was in the PMFC it was my favourite event outdoors. I'm "on duty" judging so can't enter the events but I still love to watch what goes on.
I do really enjoy spectating at the RC and Scale Nats though. It's the best opportunity for buying supplies and the scale area is great for spectators ... as are other areas.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 16, 2019, 11:40:35 AM
I think I'll give these nats a miss then...
Don’t be put off by anything I said. As Russ points out it’s a superb opportunity to stock up on supplies without any postage costs, the whole power nats circus is something to behold and the evening FF contest, once all the RC flyers have stopped, is often a quite magical occasion. Never mind the car hire cost- go to Barkston and Peterborough!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: kkphantom on August 16, 2019, 01:32:09 PM
£140.00 for long weekend hire or £41 for the following weekend. Nah, Peterborough it is...when I add up bus fares to and from hire car company, hire car, petrol, camping fees for two, entry fees and a bit of a spend, I doubt I'd get out of the nats for much less than £300.00.
I'll be taking our boat  towards Leicestershire next year so maybe then.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on August 16, 2019, 02:39:08 PM
I’m from Leicester myself ... i spend time on the dry side of the waterways sometimes.
Foxton Locks are a favourite.  :)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on August 18, 2019, 10:02:12 AM
" All the noise, tents, cars, and loud sweaty fat blokes"  ....... yes my feelings exactly - bit like a boot sale too..... but that said the FF scale events are magical and worth the trip alone so take it easy and get there mid after noon......?  Dare I ask - is the chuck and duck event happening this year?  Or has sense prevailed?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: SP250 on August 18, 2019, 03:53:06 PM
David

The "chuck and duck" is being held at the same time as the FF scale competition (after 6.00pm when all RC flying stops). 
It will be held in the same place as the showline flying is done during the day.
Rather more policing and crowd control/positioning, with a specific launch box, than previous years I believe.

If you are going - introduce yourself during the daytime before the FF starts.

John M


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 20, 2019, 03:04:59 PM
The forecast is looking promising - two evenings of 'gentle breeze' so fingers crossed that all models reach their potential.
Flat calm tonight so I sneaked onto a cut field for a bit of guerilla trimming. I guess I'm as ready as I ever am these days...


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 20, 2019, 03:43:06 PM
Nice work Bill. I hoped to do the same but by the time I got back it was too late. Hope to do a glide check at least before Saturday . Yep fingers crossed for the weather and good luck with 3 classes  8)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on August 20, 2019, 04:02:07 PM
Good luck to all taking part ... I hope nothing changes with that forecast  :)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on August 20, 2019, 05:12:48 PM
Have sent you a pm John....


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 22, 2019, 02:28:03 PM
The entries are interesting - a disappointing 5 and 6 in rubber and CO2/electric but an astonishing 13 in IC, including no fewer than 7 new models. It goes to show how things are cyclical


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 22, 2019, 02:51:59 PM
Quote
an astonishing 13 in IC, including no fewer than 7 new models.

 ;D ;D That's great, I'll bring a spare battery for my camera !!!!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on August 24, 2019, 06:03:02 PM
A great evening of free flight scale .... a pleasure to watch  :)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 24, 2019, 06:31:40 PM
A great evening of free flight scale .... a pleasure to watch  :)
Yes and the same again tomorrow.
Very interesting flights from the three gyro -stabilised low wing models


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 24, 2019, 06:35:30 PM
A few snaps from the judging tent...
Lovely variety on the tables.
The Avro Baby is Mike Kelsey’s, the Wildebeest is Stan Mauger’s and the Typhoon is Steve Glass’s.
 
Also, a ‘spot the plane’ sunset shot towards the end of the evening. Looking forward to doing it all again tomorrow!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: TheLurker on August 25, 2019, 03:19:21 AM
Nice pics. Ta.  
The (what looks like) leading edge wear showing the red dope undercoat on the Wildebeest wing is a nice touch.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on August 25, 2019, 04:28:17 AM
Thanks- obviously superb weather and more today.  I wish I could be there as the models themselves are clearly worth a look.  So nice to see that FF scale is alive and well.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: cvasecuk on August 25, 2019, 04:43:44 AM
Wish I was there too.
Ron in deepest Cornwall!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: dputt7 on August 25, 2019, 04:57:58 AM
  Thanks for the photos Pete, really appreciate these reports, envious of your many events and great conditions.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Rich Moore on August 25, 2019, 01:54:06 PM
Missed another one. May be next year.  :(


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 26, 2019, 06:06:30 AM
Yup, still waiting to see your Nieuport again, Rich!

Couple more pics from yesterday. Sunny a and a bit breezier than Saturday but still very nice.

Free flight scoreboard after Day 1. (As you can see, I was going for the coveted ‘Biggest discrepancy between flight score and static’ award. ;D). Don’t know the Sunday scores yet.

Also, just in case anyone’s interested, the RC board after Day 2. They fly again today of course.

Chris’s Tomtit cruising overhead. Great to see it with air beneath its wings. Lovely model.

Couple of Bill’s models and the Hewitt Fokker. All flew well, naturally.

Finally, a self indulgent shot of my Comte after its last flight. Managed a full six qualifying flights with no alarms or damage, so a very enjoyable couple of evenings for me.

(Got one vid of Steve Glass’s Chippie too. Coming in a minute.)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 26, 2019, 06:11:42 AM
Steve Glass’s Chipmunk. His own gyro system is installed. Lovely take off and a dream of a glide too. Pretty impressive!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THDlmSBAqh4


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on August 26, 2019, 07:43:53 AM
Bar the weird spiral descent of one Steve's models, the gyro stabilised models were wonderful to watch.
I really enjoyed watching your Comte ... I took a couple of videos into the sun .... they are more akin to a dubious UFO sighting video on YouTube though!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 26, 2019, 01:50:58 PM
Another hugely enjoyable Nats, many thanks to the organisers for a smooth running event.

Great to see so many new models and excited to see so many in the IC class - you know you're having fun when you have to clean the castor oil off your glasses  ;)

I tried to get a shot of every model but I have failed !! just noticed I missed Ivan's Zero ... anyway here's the first of my pics

First up Stan Maugers lovely Vickers Wilderbeast, a complex design beautifully built

pic 3  Bill's Caprioni looking the part

Pic 4-5 Bill's RE8 - a very impressive model

Pic 6 Andrew Hewitts Fokker EIV I love the cockpit detail, with the original construction visible inside









Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 26, 2019, 02:01:36 PM
Pic 1 - Judges Paul and Doug static judging Andy's Fokker

Pic 2 - A smaller Fokker from Gareth Tilston

Pic 3 -  Ricky's Auster AOP 9, now with new nose

Pic 4 - Steve Glass's DH Chipmunk, Pete has already posted a video of this flying

Pic 5 6  - Ivan Taylor's TSR 2, I'm not sure what he does to make these designs fly as well as they do?



Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on August 26, 2019, 02:09:09 PM
Completely missed Bill's RE8! ...great looking model  :)
Once again  inspiring stuff this year. Thanks for posting, Chris (including any photos that I might have jumped in ahead of!)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 26, 2019, 02:42:05 PM
Pic 1 - 3 Bryan Lea's Spartan Arrow. This is lovely model, the metal work around the cowling is very impressive with a hinged side panel. Not yet in a flying state but hopefully next year ????

pic 4 - Ivan's Mitsubishi Claude

Pic 5 - My own Hawker Tomtit. It's still work in progress with this one when it comes to flying but after an unsuccessful Saturday evening I managed a couple of qualifying flights on the breezier Sunday evening. It's showing real promise so delighted with that and with all the useful advice on hand by fellow competitors at events like this I now know where I'm going with it.

Pic 6 - Mike Kelsey's very nice Avro Baby. Still early days in trimming for Mike too but another model that is showing great promise



Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 26, 2019, 02:52:45 PM
Pic 1 Paul Briggs SE5a in an older Shuttleworth colour scheme

Pic 2 Ricky Bould's Comper Swift, a beautiful flyer as well

Pic 3 Ian Lever's Auster Aop 9 from the R Moulton plan...it performed in a manner in keeping with the original AM article which said it was capable of aerobatics

pic 4 Steve's Chipmonk

pic 5 The Smith's asses Paul Briggs SE5a

Pic 6 Briggsy caught in the act of Judging !!!!! ( Steve Glass's Hawker Typhoon )


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 26, 2019, 03:07:47 PM
Pic 1 Pete Fardell's beautifully flying Comte Gentlemen. Missed all the flights but I hear it flew with its usual grace and poise

Pic 2 Derek Knights Auster

Pic 3 - Derek's hugely impressive Tiger Moth, every time I look at the this model I think it should be at least twice the size it actually is !! such is the level of detail

Pic 4 - Mike Smith's HP 0/400. It struggled a bit early on in the flying but I saw some nice flights later on

Pic 5 6 - Mike's Sopwith Snipe a fantastic model , though this it was a bit down on power for the flying rounds, hopefully new horse power will be found for next year



Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 26, 2019, 03:12:58 PM
And finally  .....

Pilots on parade ...

Quite a mixture here, not as many recruits from the Dave Banks pilots school as I expected



Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Merlinboy on August 26, 2019, 03:37:54 PM
Thanks to Chris and Pete for the excellent photographs.

What an amazing weekend; great weather, great company, great models and great flying!

Thanks to all the organisers and competitors for making it one to remember and a special shout-out to Ricky and Stan for travelling half way around the world to join us and for being such great company!

Paul.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 26, 2019, 03:40:44 PM
It was a good one wasn't it Merlin boy

And finally... ( really this time )

There's a short video here of the flights I managed to film while trying to sort out my own Tomtit

https://youtu.be/BA_IoQRlTmI (https://youtu.be/BA_IoQRlTmI)




Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Merlinboy on August 26, 2019, 03:55:12 PM
It certainly was Chris.

Kudos for your Hawker Tomtit too; a lovely model that was beginning to show its potential in the later flying rounds. A real contender for next year for sure!

Regards,

Paul


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DHnut on August 27, 2019, 01:21:52 AM
Thank you all for being so welcoming. Once again the weather was with us.
Stan and I had a memorable weekend that will be treasured. Ivan's TSR2 showing impressive stability and Steven's Chipmunk coupled with Ian's AOP9 aerobatics were all highlights. Thank you to all the organisers and judges.
Ricky


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 27, 2019, 02:18:33 AM
Always a pleasure to have you both here Ricky - long may it continue.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Jack Plane on August 27, 2019, 04:40:10 AM
Thanks Chris for the photos and videos - brought it alive for those of us who weren't there - and well done to all!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 27, 2019, 05:51:26 AM
Thanks Jon

Anyone know the final score ? I couldn't make it on Monday


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 27, 2019, 06:59:07 AM
There were no scores posted but if I recall the first placings:

IC 1 Bill       RE8
    2 Steve   Chipmunk
    3 Andrew  EIV

Rubber  1 Ivan  Zero
             2 Bill Jungmann
             3 Derek  (? not sure)  Auster

CO2/ electric     1 Derek    Tiger
                        2 Ivan (not certain)  TSR2
                        3 Bill   Caproni

When the scores are available I´ll try and post


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: cvasecuk on August 27, 2019, 07:31:54 AM
Does anyone have a video of Ivan's TSR2?
Ron


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 27, 2019, 07:44:40 AM
Thanks Bill and congratulations on winning the IC class and for placing in all 3 classes.  ;D ;D

Ron I missed the TSR2 but hopefully someone got it


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: SP250 on August 27, 2019, 11:56:12 AM
Bill

Correction/confirmation to your posted final positions above.

Derek Knight was indeed third in Rubber with the Auster.
But it was Mike Smith second in CO2 Electric with the HP 0/400 not Ivan with the TSR2.

I will post all the scores on the scale website as soon as I have them electronically.
Please bear in mind that they will be PROVISIONAL until posted up and stated as final/official/checked etc.

A big thanks to Paul Hoey, the scorer, after Gordon Warburton's retirement, for taking on a thankless task. 
Paul was new to the job, working in hot, adverse conditions for 3 days, (one laptop had to be put in the freezer for 30 minutes so it would boot up after a thermal shut down).  The excel programmes were new for FF and still being tweaked for RC.  CL wasn't done so had to be calculated manually.  So please bear with us for the delay, as Chris Allen is not home for a week and all the score sheets have to be checked for input errors etc. before any results can be called official.

Regards John M


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 27, 2019, 04:23:16 PM
Great photos, Chris- thanks. And thanks for the provisional results Bill, and John and team for all your hard work.
I think I was fairly close to Derek even with my poxy static score, which gives me encouragement. Just need to build a similar HWM to the Comte but to a higher standard and with better documentation, and I might scrape a podium position one of these years.

Anyway- one more (not very sharp) pic from me: Mike Smith’s second placed electric HP 0/400 in action.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Tim Horne on August 27, 2019, 07:05:29 PM
I managed to get to the Nats on Saturday for the first time in about ten years and had a great evening. Very hot weather! Superb models and some great flights (and good company too :)).

Here is what I managed to get on camera. Some photos first. These were taken as everyone was arriving and models were being fettled and fueled.

Pete Fardell and his Comte AC-4 "Gentleman"
Stephen Glass (3-view) Typhoon and Chipmunk.
Paul Briggs SE5a.
Ivan Taylor and his fleet. "Claude" TSR2 and Zero. Andrew Hewitt and Eindekker behind.
Mike Smith with HP 0/400 and Sopwith Snipe.
Bill Dennis and Bucker Jungmann, Caproni and RE8.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Tim Horne on August 27, 2019, 07:16:20 PM
Chris Brainwood (Squirrelnet) and Tomtit. Lovely model!
Gareth Tilston with E111 Eindekker.
Ricky Bould's (DHnut) Auster and Comper. Sorry I didn't get them on video Ricky :(.
Stan Mauger's Vickers Vildebeest. Superb.
A view of the watching crowd. There seemed to be plenty of spectators to me but I don't have recent experience to compare it to.

That's all my photos.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Tim Horne on August 27, 2019, 07:32:54 PM
I took some video too. These are of variable quality (I mean the filming. Judge for yourselves the quality of the flying ;)).
I missed a lot of take offs. Too many things happening at the same time to catch it all! The first vid is of Ivan's hugely impressive TSR2 which I mostly missed filming completely or missed the launch! I have included it even though it's only part of the flight as it's so good to watch.

Ivan Taylor's TSR2 https://youtu.be/VMz8FEKBGus (https://youtu.be/VMz8FEKBGus)
Bill Dennis Caproni Ca100 https://youtu.be/FDmMjmT5Sio (https://youtu.be/FDmMjmT5Sio)
Stephen Glass Hawker Typhoon. https://youtu.be/7OH-19NOdus (https://youtu.be/7OH-19NOdus)
Bill Dennis Bucker Jungmann https://youtu.be/LGL6ced_0QI (https://youtu.be/LGL6ced_0QI)
Pete Fardell's Comte AC-4, second flight. https://youtu.be/RiY0f6YoZ2A (https://youtu.be/RiY0f6YoZ2A)
Pete's Comte again, 3rd flight. https://youtu.be/QBSdnsP41j4 (https://youtu.be/QBSdnsP41j4)
Ivan Taylor's Zero. https://youtu.be/zOB06Bx-F3w (https://youtu.be/zOB06Bx-F3w)
Ivan Taylor's Zero, Into the Sun! https://youtu.be/gWS9AfHsK0g (https://youtu.be/gWS9AfHsK0g) This was the last vid I got as my camera battery ran out; but for me it sums up a perfect end to a summer evenings flying :).

Tim


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 27, 2019, 07:44:01 PM
Great stuff, Tim! Thanks very much for photographing and filming. I agree your last video is particularly joyous: Ivan’s Zero flying like the mean hunting machine it is with Ian Lever’s plucky Auster suddenly entering stage right and blithely practising a few loops!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 28, 2019, 03:41:52 AM
That last one! It´s a shame you can´t frame videos, but I couldn´t help thinking it looks like it´s heading for Brazil


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on August 28, 2019, 04:03:59 AM
Thanks Tim ... the videos particularly captured the atmosphere of the evening. :)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: marcin_pl on August 28, 2019, 04:15:02 AM
What happened to Typhoon at the end of the flight? It suddenly entered a spin after a very smooth flight? The film is not sharp and unclear in this moment.

Marcin


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 28, 2019, 04:18:04 AM
What happened to Typhoon at the end of the flight? It suddenly entered a spin after a very smooth flight? The film is not sharp and unclear in this moment.

Marcin
Battery failure. The model is untrimmed and unstable - the gyro keeps it flying, until it doesn´t.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: cvasecuk on August 28, 2019, 04:53:54 AM
Thank you Tim. I am very envious of you all being able to witness a wonderful display of free flight scale modelling in such lovely conditions.
Ron


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Prosper on August 28, 2019, 07:21:38 AM
Thanks everyone for posting and uploading the photos and videos of this event - I've just been wallowing in them. Oh - I nearly forgot - thanks to those who made and flew the models which made the pics and clips possible :D.  There are some absolutely lovely models there.

Stephen.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on August 28, 2019, 09:31:05 AM
Looking through a book of aircraft I regularly look at, I found myself including subjects that could be gyro stabilised ... is this stabilisation something that will be allowed to continue ... either included in normal competition, or in a separate class?
There is something quite entrancing about that "someone in the cockpit" feel they give.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Jez Wilkins on August 28, 2019, 09:51:34 AM
... is this stabilisation something that will be allowed to continue ... either included in normal competition, or in a separate class?

I think that there were some posts recently, in another thread on here (can't remember where though - maybe somebody else knows) that it was a bit of a 'watching brief' at present, to see how matters develop?

Thanks to all for the pictures and video links - the true spirit of aeromodelling. :)

Cheers,

Jez Wilkins 


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: SP250 on August 28, 2019, 10:07:12 AM
Russ

We had a vast amount of discussion on the STC about gyros in the RC classes and last year was the first for them to be allowed. 
A 1.0 vs 9.0 K factor penalty was applied to the scoring if you used a 3 axis gyro.  This proved to be far too harsh. 
This year there is a 50% penalty (5 to 9) and it seems about right.  Although it is a work in progress and further tweeks may be needed.

The situation in FF is that currently there are no penalties on the K factors.  However in future there may need to be to "level the playing field".
As it is emerging technology in FF I do not see that they (gyros) would be banned in the future or penalised beyond use. 
In a nut shell, it is current RC tech and here to stay, so should be embraced with a suitable leveller for those not using one. 

Also as a heads up, I have also (personally not at STC) had a discussion over the use of a quad electronics board and their ability to "return to home" and circle above launch point to be used by some clever person so that the FF model will be circling in the same spot all flight long and eliminate the long downwind retreival for those with older legs.  I assume that the model will just head into wind longer and turn faster when going downwind to keep the circle centered on the launch point.  Watch this space I suspect for someone clever at electronics to give it a go.  This is really only an extension of the FF electric motor profiler which many people already use.

John M


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on August 28, 2019, 11:00:43 AM
Jez,
Yes, I think I have seen some of the discussion ( I suffer from information overload with what I have read and where!)
I was wondering if any further thoughts had been put forward in the light of performances at the Nats.
Jon,
Thanks for the update on the current situation.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on August 31, 2019, 05:12:33 AM
I wonder if condoning the use of “emerging technology” is the thin end of the wedge if it is on the basis of it is only an extension of what we use already because when you think about it just about every is such an extension.  I am not sure then where you draw the line.

Free Flight scale was easily defined at one time and so easily understood. Because there was little or no technology anyway and none capable of the things of today.   At what point do you say that is free flight and that is not.  Introducing penalties  is I think not the way to do it but separate classes would not be practical. Again then probably down to good sense and understanding. And we seem rather good at that.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: SP250 on August 31, 2019, 06:16:24 AM
David

In essence a 3 axis gyro is only an electronic version of pendulum control which started probably in the 40's / 50's.
Some people don't want it because they don't understand electronics - but some people can't build bespoke mechanical pendulum set up which works either.

The use of a 2.4gHz RC Tx and RX with an ESC to cut off power to an electric motor (or and IC engine with a servo) is just a straight forward easy to apply solution to having a complicated mechanical device on board to cut the electrons to the motor.  Simple, straight forward and anyone can do it.

So I don't understand the intransigence of some competitors to the technology advance in using readily available items for an easy life. 
There are always pioneers and then the majority foliow suit when the stuff is widely available' as happened with motor profilers from Atomic Workshop and K&P with indoor electric powered models.

John M


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: TheLurker on August 31, 2019, 06:44:19 AM
Quote from: DavidJP
I am not sure then where you draw the line.
I don't think we can, nor should we. If we do we risk turning aeromodelling into a fossil hobby and for a hobby that has always embraced new technologies that would be rather sad. 

From what I've seen the controlled adoption of newer technologies into competition models is the only sane thing to do and, as you say, refining class definitions will prevent unbalanced competition.

I think cost may be the biggest concern. It doesn't affect non-competing types like me, but if you need expensive* technology just to be competitive then there is a risk that you reduce number of people who can afford to enter competitions and given that lack of entries to competitions is a recurring topic I can't see this being a welcome development.

Lurk.

*"Expensive" is a subjective measure.  My "horrendously expensive" is another's "dirt cheap".


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on August 31, 2019, 09:16:04 AM
Yes.  I hope my ravings came across as simply “thoughts”.  I am not a competitor of any note and am not entitled to grind any axe.  I use things like Atomic Workshop boards etc. Bowden for example used radio.  As did most of that generation - a “natural” thing to do.

I suppose my concern is that by embracing technological developments we do not lose the concept of “free flight”.  Have I got it right though.

An electronically controlled cut for the power source is not going to enhance the flight.  It is simply a more efficient and reliable method.

I am not conversant with electronic pendulum systems and don’t know therefore if I could make one. I did make a bare mechanical pendulum system years ago but it only “worked” to stabilise the model after a fashion but that could have been down to me.  Is there a simple drawing or explanation please of how to make an electronic pendulum system please. I might have a go.  I take it that this system is solely on board and stabilises the model with no remote “interference”?

So that enhances the flight but is really just like down or side thrust but a little more sophisticated - it is continually making adjustments but at its own command.

Now as Lurk says cost could be a concern and result in a form of elitism.  Certainly I think this has happened in FAI where apparently to be competitive you need to spend thousands on models ready to go from Ukraine.  So should the builder of the model rule include the electronic aids?  Hmmm. Could get complicated!  I certainly could not make from scratch a board of the type sold by Atomic Workshop.  Don’t have the soldering skills for a start.  But those boards are probably comfortably within everyone’s budget.  So what about a ceiling for the price of a bought component?  Honesty will play a large part of course.  But it does anyway.

Presently the FF Scale community seems a friendly and sensible crowd.  I am a little concerned though that fragmentation does not start occurring due to the relaxation or acceptance of devices that might be regarded as “not quite cricket”.

How essential are these devices.  We see many models flying beautifully in all senses without any electronic aids.

Well I suppose these aids assist the producing of models that otherwise would not be attempted because they will otherwise not fly!  Now if the competitor with such model gets a bonus for the type of model but has not built the “device” which helps it to fly well so suffers a penalty is that not reasonably fair?  If he has entered a challenging model with a home built “aid” he does not suffer a penalty.  He benefits from being skilful which is the name of the game anyway.

I am not sure I agree with your claim Lurk that we should not draw a line. That can apply to aeromodeling generally but  not I think to FF Scale.  For it to retain the ”image” it has to be free flight.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Bryanair on August 31, 2019, 11:16:21 AM
The PROVISIONAL Results have been posted for all scale classes (RC, FF & CL) flown at last weekend’s August Nationals.

Look here https://bmfa.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=3280&language=en-GB&PortalId=0&TabId=1584


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 31, 2019, 12:17:59 PM
The PROVISIONAL Results have been posted for all scale classes (RC, FF & CL) flown at last weekend’s August Nationals.

Look here https://bmfa.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=3280&language=en-GB&PortalId=0&TabId=1584
Thanks Bryan. I guess that, as an actual competitor at the Nats, my individual email alerting me to the results ( a week after the event)  has got stuck in the pipes.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Bryanair on August 31, 2019, 12:32:22 PM
Bill

You need to subscribe to receive email news updates.

https://scale.bmfa.org/provisional-nationals-scale-results


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 31, 2019, 01:01:39 PM
Thanks Brian. I didn´t know that but my point was, I shouldn´t have to


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 31, 2019, 01:24:40 PM
The situation in FF is that currently there are no penalties on the K factors.  However in future there may need to be to "level the playing field".
Now we´ve seen them, it is clear that the playing field cannot be levelled


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 31, 2019, 01:28:37 PM
In essence a 3 axis gyro is only an electronic version of pendulum control which started probably in the 40's / 50's.
Except that it works, in all conditions


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 31, 2019, 01:35:07 PM
So I don't understand the intransigence of some competitors to the technology advance in using readily available items for an easy life.  
There are always pioneers and then the majority foliow suit when the stuff is widely available' as happened with motor profilers from Atomic Workshop and K&P with indoor electric powered models.
I haven´t seen any intransigence prior to the Nats; just a concern that our activity which has continued with ups and downs for 70 years and is currently healthy, is under very real threat. Nobody flies FF scale for an easy life.
There is no comparison between a timer and s stability device


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 31, 2019, 02:11:37 PM
Quote
There is no comparison between a timer and s stability device

I agree with you on this Bill, I think the successful use of Gyros has be very clearly demonstrated to be a game changer. It's really not like pendulum control or other mechanical stabilisers or timers.

 Personally I would like to see some form of points penalty which attempts to level the playing field a bit. We can't roll back the clock and nor should we but I would like to see traditional FF scale models continuing to be competitive and the use of gyros limited to previously un-trimmable designs. How you police that I'm less sure of. I have to say, as well, the work put in by some to make gyros work is inspiring and the results stunning. I wouldn't want to take anything away from that or stop it's progress

BUT as I have said before without some form of scoring system to take the advantage into account the logical conclusion of this is a Piper Cub with 3 axis gyro and throttle control, and a GPS board capable of taking off and landing back at the pilots feet. It could probably even fly a pattern with an inverted pass over the judges head.

In my ideal world the two can exist side by side but it needs some thought and some sort of points benefits for flying without gyro assistance.

Just my two pennies worth







Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: no1dieselman on August 31, 2019, 03:18:35 PM
I had to go back and read it a few times before it sunk in. Gyros, whatever next. This is free flight after all it is supposed to be difficult and the skill is to chose the model and trim it for successful flight. Now some are saying bunging in a gyro is fair because it's progress. Come on lads don't poison everything. I would ban them in rc  as well. If you judge flight performance it should be the pilots skill that makes the difference, not the gyro set up.
I think electronic stabilised and programmed flight should be a seperate class, it is the only fair way to do it.
Doug


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: ZK-AUD on August 31, 2019, 03:19:57 PM
I didn't see any pictures or details of Derek Knight's Auster.  I'm guessing it's nice.  Size, details, performance anyone?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on August 31, 2019, 03:32:43 PM
Sorry I seemed to missed it off my upload...here it is

Derek's  Auster scored well in the flying, though I missed seeing myself. It was 3rd in the rubber class


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 31, 2019, 03:36:42 PM
Thanks for the results link. Top flight score in rubber will do me nicely thank you!

On the other issue, I'm frankly astonished that there is to be no seperate scoring provision made for models using gyros. Don't get me wrong- I loved watching Steve Glass's flights, and also Ivan's, and look forward to seeing many other previously tricky/impossible subjects in action in the years to come. But Steve's beautiful Typhoon simply fell out of the sky as soon as the gyro battery failed didn't it? Maybe I'm missing something here though as I know next to nothing about either the technology or history of it. It won't affect me directly till people start using them in scale rubber models I suppose.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Yak 52 on August 31, 2019, 03:39:44 PM
...performance anyone?...

Hi Mike, I was chatting to Derek about it today and he said it goes well in calm weather but he decided not to bother flying it today - admittedly in 18mph gusting 28mph!

Jon


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on August 31, 2019, 03:45:15 PM
Mike, it´s the (very) old Aeromodeller plan


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DHnut on August 31, 2019, 04:49:35 PM
We in NZ have been discussing this and the correction of the electric parameters in the F4A rules. The thinking is that any new players will have an inclination towards electric power, and use electronic pendulums are now a fact of life, offering some positives in that it allows the building of models with known stability deficiencies. Surely anything that encourages new comers must be good
We already use bonuses for multi engine models so we see no reason that some form of loading could not be used to manage this development. By their very nature these are not going to be easy models to trim initially and this has been already shown.   
The availability of components will occur from the drone world as it already has and at an affordable price so those concerns are met. The availability traditional materials may become more difficult. 
Let us embrace change because ignoring it will not help.
Ricky


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on August 31, 2019, 05:50:54 PM
I had not realised gyros had been used in FF models.  Again I don’t have a full understanding by any means of how they work or what they can do in a FF scale model.  I have though flown those little indoor helicopters which without a gyro would be uncontrollable almost. So I would be cautious about them.  In drones gyros would appear essential are they not?

I don’t think Ricky it is a case of ignoring change - it is how we accommodate it to keep the field level.  And I would I think be opposed to doing away with the well established FF culture just to attract newcomers.  Let them do something else.

I do not really care about radio now but in principle if flying is part of the contest (as it should be) then how can an aid to help one fly better be allowed.  Possibly only in the case of the full size aircraft being similarly equipped.  But that would need some studying.



Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DHnut on September 01, 2019, 03:04:01 AM
David as usual an insightful comment. The challenge we have is that is that these new capabilities open up new possibilities but the current FAI rules are not clear on what is allowable. They are currently struggling with the whole gyro ( stablising device ) issue in R/C. The models at the Nationals were only single axis and still required trimming so there was no fundamental change in the process. What I found encouraging was the variety of entrants, the best in many years
What seems to have changed is the approach that sets boundaries but leaves the decision to the modeller as to what they do. I have made kit scale models and elected to paint them knowing I will be penalized but still entered. The current rules have tended to favour certain catagories of model but that appears to have started to change for the better with the use of the electronic pendulum. None of those flying were easy subjects to trim. The only other option would be to start to change tail surfaces to get stable flight but incur a static penalty as a result.
What is pleasing these changes are being discussed together with the means of managing them.
Ricky


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 01, 2019, 03:26:22 AM
The models at the Nationals were only single axis and still required trimming so there was no fundamental change in the process.
 None of those flying were easy subjects to trim.
They are easy to trim. In fact Steve told me they are completely untrimmed, with a cg nowhere near. The gyro fixes everything. Last year, Ivan´s Claude crashed because it was out of trim fore and aft - nothing to do with the gyro ailerons.
The Typhoon is dual axis.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 01, 2019, 03:34:58 AM
The current rules have tended to favour certain catagories of model but that appears to have started to change for the better with the use of the electronic pendulum.
It is fairer to say that free flight favours certain categories of model. Our rules are remarkably open compared to others, which have an abundance of bonuses and whatever is the opposite of bonus. You build what you want and take your chances. That´s been the attraction of FF scale to me, up until now, anyway.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on September 01, 2019, 04:57:43 AM
The current rules have tended to favour certain catagories of model but that appears to have started to change for the better with the use of the electronic pendulum.
It is fairer to say that free flight favours certain categories of model. Our rules are remarkably open compared to others, which have an abundance of bonuses and whatever is the opposite of bonus. You build what you want and take your chances. That´s been the attraction of FF scale to me, up until now, anyway.

I think I go with that.  Although it might take a while to evolve I would be very disappointed to see an erosion of FF Scale as we know it.  I would have thought the bonuses and whatever is the opposite (penalty?) adequately covered the situation.  Yes like you Ricky I would paint a kit scale model simply because that is the way I am.  And take my chances with the rules which I consider both remarkably clear and fair.  I think also over recent years we have seen quite a change in the models now presented in free flight scale - for the better- dihedral being the most obvious. Tail surfaces have been made more scale as well and many models now appear that at one time were considered untouchable.  All without electronic gizmos.  So ingenuity rather than technology can overcome? But that is not to say we discard technology - we accommodate  it fairly.

Possibly I am wrong but my concept of FF Scale is that it exploits the overall skill of the modeller. The ability to produce an accurate well built realistic looking well  correctly flying model.  So if skill is to play a significant  part the use of certain aids that are not conceived and made by the modeller should be taken into account.  My other fixation is that the “winner” should be the “best” not the one with the fattest wallet.  Just old fashioned I guess?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: RalphS on September 01, 2019, 05:21:38 AM
I can't see what the problem is.  Just have another class for stabilised FF.  This would apply to pendulum, floating rudder and electronic - so no blurring there.

It would introduce a complete range of new models (and perhaps modellers) rather than the need to keep modelling the same old biplanes or YHWMs. 

I have seen the fantastic effect of gyros in the tiny (about 20" span) r/c P51 and Suhkoi, etc., ready made foam models that handle so well they seem to fly on rails in the windiest conditions.

Good luck to Steve Glass and others who are capable of adapting new technology.

 



Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: vintagemike on September 01, 2019, 05:25:19 AM
Just a thought, isn't it called Free Flight Scale? ie free flight with no artificial means of control?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 01, 2019, 05:40:02 AM
I was talking about this with my dad at the nats because he now fits gyros on his big rc scale biplanes. In RC I think they take a big points hit on their take off and landing scores, but for him it’s worth it because it makes flying feasible on much windier days. He says it’s a bit like flying in near ideal conditions all the time. I think most of the biplane flyers were using them. (Sorry, that’s probably just muddying the waters as far as FF is concerned!)



Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on September 01, 2019, 06:10:21 AM
"I can't see what the problem is.  Just have another class for stabilised FF.  This would apply to pendulum, floating rudder and electronic - so no blurring there."

I think the only problem Ralph is the "admin" and judging - not enough "bodies"!

Pete, I think your point, rather muddying the waters, explains why gyros are rightly penalised.  Old bi - planes would not have had gyros, but relied on the skill of the pilot against the conditions.  I recognise though you cannot have scale wind!  And it also illustrates the flexibility of the rules - by all means use a gyro but you will be penalised.  For my part I would be likely to go that route.  My model would be for use outside competition as well so if it meant I could fly with less risk because of my lack of ability then fine!   


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: cvasecuk on September 01, 2019, 06:18:09 AM
I attended the FF Indoor Scale Nats this year for the first time. The flight realism between the rubber and electric classes was very marked. Once you have a battery on board there are innumerable aids available. Perhaps the Electric Class should include any model that has electronic flight assisting gizmos??!! I would not include motor cut in this as it does not change the flight profile.
Ron


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 01, 2019, 06:22:38 AM
I can't see what the problem is.  Just have another class for stabilised FF.  This would apply to pendulum, floating rudder and electronic

I agree Ralph, although just for gyro models - the others either don´t work or are certainly not reliable. The problem is there aren´t enough models to sustain such a class. Maybe a solution for the time being, until all these hordes of people attracted by gyros materialise, is to have them in the FF class but just separate out the results at the end. Same number of judges needed.
Trying to find a way of ´levelling the playing field´is futile.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on September 01, 2019, 07:09:06 AM
Quote
Maybe a solution for the time being, until all these hordes of people attracted by gyros materialise, is to have them in the FF class but just separate out the results at the end. Same number of judges needed

Sounds like a sensible and practical solution


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on September 01, 2019, 07:17:22 AM
Bill, you say levelling the playing field is futile.  Is this just in the case of gyros?  It seems to me that otherwise the levelling method we have is OK but of course not perfect.

Obviously I don’t have the benefit of your experience so could you elaborate a little please?  And when you say separate  out the results at the end that is when all gyro equipped models are end up  judged against each other alone and not with the “others”?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Mike Thomas on September 01, 2019, 07:34:17 AM
I have just tried looking to the FAI for a definition of free flight, but couldn't find one which was absolute. For instance, the basic definition appears to be (paraphrased) a "form of flight with no external interference after launch". Thus on-board gyros would be acceptable for free flight models. I had always understood however, that for the FAI in particular and for national associations generally, a free flight model must not employ any closed loop on-board system. On that basis, I imagine, gyros would not be acceptable, and neither would a pendulum system. Yet there is a class of model, magnet steered glider (F1E), which is a free flight class operating on a closed loop guidance system.

In other words, I don't think that at the moment, there is a fundamentally coherent and absolute definition of free flight. Any such definition would of its nature be quite independent of what current or future technology may offer and would provide the basis for the rules by which the various classes operate.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 01, 2019, 08:34:18 AM
Bill, you say levelling the playing field is futile.  Is this just in the case of gyros?  It seems to me that otherwise the levelling method we have is OK but of course not perfect.

Obviously I don’t have the benefit of your experience so could you elaborate a little please?  And when you say separate  out the results at the end that is when all gyro equipped models are end up  judged against each other alone and not with the “others”?
David, the gyro models scored best flights at the Nats, as they are bound to. If levelling the field, which people bandy about, means a penalty to make things fair, where would you set it? And would you increase it in windy weather?
Yes, fly all together with same judges but have two results lists - gyro and FF.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 01, 2019, 08:49:54 AM
Just to further lever the lid on the can of worms ... does this technology now make a free flight helicopter a viable proposition? Personally, not a development I would be too keen about.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 01, 2019, 08:53:41 AM
Though the sight of a Chinook beating up the flight line ..... wokka, wokka,  wokka........


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Prosper on September 01, 2019, 09:17:59 AM
Quote
So if skill is to play a significant part the use of certain aids that are not conceived and made by the modeller should be taken into account.
Aaand, the winner iiiiiiis: Han Cheng from Taiwan Micro-Electronics (Novelties Division) LLC, for his brilliant microchip! Well done Mr. Han!

Quote
This would apply to pendulum, floating rudder and electronic
They're very different things, Ralph, as Bill points out. I'm not sure that a floating rudder is a 'thing' at all, come to that. If models with added (overscale) dihedral belong in the same class as ones with scale dihedral then I would have thought that that same class could accommodate a floating rudder or two.

Quote
Just a thought, isn't it called Free Flight Scale? ie free flight with no artificial means of control?
This seems to me another wheredjadrawtheline problem. All our models obey the laws of physics. A trim tab fits in the field of fluid mechanics; a gyro fits in the field of er. . .gyroscopical whizzy stuff. None of these aids can be affected by the user once the model is launched.

I was aware (via HPA) of what Steve Glass has achieved, but it didn't sink in until - as I understand it - I read that his Typhoon came down out of control because it isn't trimmed. I'm not sure that it can be right to say that it's not stable: I would guess it has a decent amount of natural stability (if trimmed), from general experience and having built a much smaller Tempest with pendulum ailerons. However, the apparent fact that these gyros are good enough not only to amplify the model's natural stability but to substitute for fixed trim as well is extraordinary. Scary. My entry for next year's FF Nats is to be a 1/8th scale model of my comfy chair. All documentation will show it to be extremely scale and I expect it to fly well. I can verify that the prototype has flown at least once (those removals men, tsk tsk). As soon as I can work out how to imitate the fancy curlicued gold thread in the damask fabric I'll be off.

Okay, satire aside, and adding what others have said about GPS, although "none of these aids can be affected. . ."etc, this really needs thinking about. Can it reely be called free flight? When I  launch a model I always think I'm setting it free. The pendulum-aileron models I've made can't be counted upon to fly a particular pattern at all - they normally turn left, my preference, but can opt for right instead. If I knew, even without controlling it via radio, laser, mind-waves or what have you, that a model is going to climb over there, circle round, do a roll, flash its landing lights and come right back to a stabilised approach and landing despite the gusty wind, I don't see how that can be "free".

Stephen.



Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 01, 2019, 09:28:59 AM
Maybe a solution for the time being, until all these hordes of people attracted by gyros materialise, is to have them in the FF class but just separate out the results at the end. Same number of judges needed.
In practical terms, why is this better than just having the gyro flyers in a separate class tacked on to the end (or beginning) of each ordinary free flight round?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 01, 2019, 09:29:26 AM
It has to be man carrying  Stephen .... were you sat in your comfy chair at the time it flew? ....  ;)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 01, 2019, 11:20:50 AM
Maybe a solution for the time being, until all these hordes of people attracted by gyros materialise, is to have them in the FF class but just separate out the results at the end. Same number of judges needed.
In practical terms, why is this better than just having the gyro flyers in a separate class tacked on to the end (or beginning) of each ordinary free flight round?
It isn´t but it just looks less silly than having a contest for two people, which you can´t have anyway


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 01, 2019, 11:27:47 AM
Good point. (Mind you, they had a few contests for one people at Peterborough yesterday!)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 01, 2019, 11:29:38 AM
I read that his Typhoon came down out of control because it isn't trimmed. I'm not sure that it can be right to say that it's not stable: I would guess it has a decent amount of natural stability (if trimmed), from general experience and having built a much smaller Tempest with pendulum ailerons.
It came down because the battery failed the gyro and the model then realised that it hadn´t been trimmed. That´s the point ´you can bypass the entire trimming process that people like Andrew Hewitt (Eindekker/zero dihedral/minuscule tail surfaces) have to apply


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Prosper on September 01, 2019, 04:49:57 PM
Quite, Bill, I understand that. I watched the end of the video clip (Squirrelnet? Sorry - forgotten already)  of Steve Glass' Typhoon frame by frame and knew that something was up: I guessed that pitch was involved and that when the battery failed it left the ailerons and elevators in extreme positions. That's because the idea that the model wasn't trimmed never entered my mind. There's no way a trimmed model could have departed so abruptly with neutral controls. Hence my admiration for what Steve Glass has shown to be possible but my disquiet at the implications (flying comfy chairs, forget the Eindekkers). It looked to me as if the Typhoon survived the 'arrival' but had it been trimmed I expect it would just have lazily rolled off into a wingtip-first landing.

Stephen.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 02, 2019, 02:04:34 AM
Hence my admiration for what Steve Glass has shown to be possible but my disquiet at the implications
Stephen, that´s the dilemma in a nutshell.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on September 02, 2019, 05:24:02 AM
Thank you Bill - now I understand - I honestly had not considered gyros in FF scale models were permitted because I had not thought about it.  And it seemed a step too far for free flight.  But now it is becoming clear.  Yes a can of worms and all that. The single contest with separate results seems the most practical solution presently.

Stephen, Mr Han Cheng would surely be considered a professional?  And his chip would not belong to him - but the Company for which he worked.

You will have to register your armchair with the CAA remember.  Bound to be over 250gms with the gold thread?

However your serious comment about explaining the dilemma is masterly.  All pretty clear now.  But just one thing.  So you trim your gyro equipped model to fly as best it can and use the gyro to further help sustain a stable flight.  If the battery goes will it not override the "trim" settings  and possibly set them in extreme positions - like I recall happening with radio failure.  Yes, this is all pretty admirable and I envy Steve's ability.  It will I am sure open up a new field but I am not convinced it is truly free flight in the true sense.  But then no one it seems (sensibly) is claiming it is are they?

I think the radio control arena is a different matter -  not even sure gyros should be permitted even with penalties - but of course that is likely to reduce entires?   


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DHnut on September 02, 2019, 05:53:46 AM
As you say David that is a classic failure mode for radio and does not indicate the model is not trimmed. In the case of the Typhoon the small tail would probably mean it was marginal at best the shallow dihedral would add to the lack of stability. To me watching the Chipmunk flight was magic with a good sit of the aircraft in the air no excessive dihedral and a realistic flight speed. 
Surely ignoring these developments is not going to be productive as they are now a fact of life and a workable  solution should be found. If a rule does not work then change it and improve it.  The danger of a new class is that it dilutes already low numbers. The times are  a changing!
I can see radio DT becoming the norm for safety reasons in FF electric and even in power to save a model.
We still have the builder of the model rule and that should never change.
Ricky


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: LASTWOODSMAN on September 02, 2019, 06:19:58 AM
     What is the "builder of the model rule" that should never change?   Also, could somebody please explain how (with pics please ), how theses "gyros" etc. work, and how much they cost  and how much weight they add?   I also thought these flights were Free Flight rubber powered ...   ???

LASTWOODSMAN
Richard  


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: ChrisH on September 02, 2019, 06:40:08 AM
Is application of the 'Builder of the Model Rule' an answer to 'new technology' issues?

Doesn't the entrant still have to provide a written declaration confirming they have built the model themselves, and identifying any component used that has been provided by others?

If 'gyro' control has been achieved using a lead pendulum and bent piano wire, by the builder alone, then allow it.   If the builder has achieved the same result by clever construction from individual electronic components, then surely that is a modern equivalent of the old and established wire pendulum.....but if you bought the device take the penalty.

If electric motor control has been made by the modeller from individual components (think Peterboro timer, or Tomy timer and contacts perhaps) allow it.   If a bought in timer (say Atomic Workshop or K&P) take the penalty.

If you carved the pilot yourself score the points....If you install a pilot beautifully modelled by Dave Hanks instead, take a penalty.


Personally I think the same principal should apply to 3D printed parts and printed tissue.   If the modeller actually built the 3D or 2D cad file, themselves, then they should score the points, but if bought in from others then take a penalty.   I am not sure what the general consensus was on printed parts or covering?

I guess, if the principal were acceptable, the task for rule makers would be to identify the permissible boundaries, and appropriate penalties when exceeded?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on September 02, 2019, 07:00:49 AM
Chris

I think the builder of model rule has always been there dating back to the days when commercially bought models were not available, it was always an aeromodelling competition to biuld and fly model aircraft

I think you are missing the point with the gyro . Its not a matter of wether you made it yourself its more to do with how it operates.

The previous stabilisation devices and cut off timers all aid the flying of a trimmed model. The gyro effective flies the plane for you in a similar manner to fitting a tiny pilot. The model does not need to be trimmed in the conventional sense as the gyro will fly round any issues for you. Clearly the implications of this in a discipline that is very much focused on the aerodynamic trimming of model is huge


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: RalphS on September 02, 2019, 10:02:35 AM

I think you are missing the point with the gyro . Its not a matter of wether you made it yourself its more to do with how it operates.

The previous stabilisation devices and cut off timers all aid the flying of a trimmed model. The gyro effective flies the plane for you in a similar manner to fitting a tiny pilot. The model does not need to be trimmed in the conventional sense as the gyro will fly round any issues for you. Clearly the implications of this in a discipline that is very much focused on the aerodynamic trimming of model is huge

I suspect there is still trimming to do otherwise the model would set off in a straight line until the motive power ran out.  I think Steve could let us into his approach. 


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DHnut on September 02, 2019, 10:11:19 AM
Chris H
           I think you have summed it up very well, as this allows the modeller to make the call as what approach they take knowing the penalty. It will encourage experimentation and trying new types.
Ricky


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Prosper on September 02, 2019, 06:09:00 PM
Well that's the fascinating question, Ralph. A gyro maintains a fixed position relative to space; a pendulum seeks the centre of the Earth (in one axis only). If I have a pendulum aileron setup I have to trim the model physically in roll by introducing aileron bias. With a gyro as the master, connected to the control surfaces via electronics as well as mechanics, perhaps you can simply twiddle a potentiometer. "I commmand the gyro, fixed to the Universe, to provide a rate 2 turn to the left", something like that. I'm still amazed to think that such a gyro system can overcome the need for basic trimming. However, Steve's Typhoon is big. Smaller models have lower Reynold's Numbers, making them inherently less stable, so a smaller 'Gyro Typhoon' would need to be trimmed in the classical manner, otherwise to obtain static stability the gyro might have to induce such a large elevator (for example) correction that a)the tailplane would stall or b)there would be no physical travel left to manage dynamic excursions from level pitch.

Quote from: RalphS
I think Steve could let us into his approach.
Perhaps Steve is busy mending his Typhoon. . .or perhaps he's taken aback by the fuss we're making. Anyway what he's done is awe-inspiring.

Stephen.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on September 03, 2019, 07:36:18 AM
Perhaps if FF Scale was defined then we would not be discussing the issue.  But rightly or wrongly we have opted to permit gyros, among  other things to encourage progress.  One can always argue that this or that device is or is not permitted or whatever reason.  So if we are to be lenient then Bil’s suggestion seems the answer.

I thought I knew but am now not sure. What is the difference between an electronic pendulum and a gyro.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Yak 52 on September 03, 2019, 08:12:21 AM
I thought I knew but am now not sure. What is the difference between an electronic pendulum and a gyro.

Pendulums don't point down all the time - the are affected by the G forces in a turn.

Whereas a gyro takes it's reference from the horizontal at all times.

(I think...)

The problem we (well I) have is not fully understanding the level of complexity and assistance provided by each device. At some point a 'gyro' progresses from augmenting stability to a full autopilot.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: RalphS on September 03, 2019, 09:08:59 AM
A clubmate has a small r/c P51 with gyro assist.  When the Tx and Rx is switched on with the model held in the hand, any movement of hand or body (even just walking) causes the servos to react - trying to keep the model on the heading from the Tx controls.  The servos are "twitching" virtually all the time.  To someone with a normal r/c model this would indicate something wrong with the Rx or servos and be quite worrying.

I assume that Steve has something to simulate a Tx/Rx combo to provide the servo/s with the appropriate signals so the gyro can interpret any movement of the model and provide a correcting signal.  I would just put a Rx in the model and fly it with radio control as I believe that Steve can do.   The little gizmos that allow brushless motors to run through an ESC in FF models work in a similar way I suppose.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DHnut on September 03, 2019, 09:14:55 AM
Jon,
       You have raised the very point I have been struggling with. My thought is that a 3 axis stabilization is an autopilot, but single axis is stabilization, because the model still has to trimmed to fly in a stable manner for the other axis. Two axis is debatable! The gyro takes its correction signal from the level of disturbance from its set reference plane.
Ricky


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: SP250 on September 03, 2019, 09:23:14 AM
There are a lot of assumptions going on here and a lot of thoughts from people who don't compete too, some of which are wide of the mark, some of which are accurate.

Just to add my take on the gyro subject - I am not sure that Steve Glass' Typhoon had a battery failure - he didn't confirm it was the battery when asked.

Consider that when it was flying with the power on, that the gyro (which I understand is on two axes aileron and elevator) is keeping all in a steady state and cruising around in circles nicely.
When the motive power stops (not battery failure) then the model starts to decend and no matter how small, the wing / fuselage takes on a lower angle of attack and the gyro feeds in up elevator.  What happens next with the slower speed is the gyro keeps feeding in up elevator as the model slows further and dives more until it departs in a stall to a flick into a spiral dive.  So more trimming / setting up work needed on the pitch axis with the gyro to stop that happening.

Allowing gyros is not as simple as many think (there are many different types and capabilities) and still requires a good deal of understanding and a different approach to FF trimming.

If it means that some people don't like it and are vocal against the new tech, then that is the way of the world. 
If it means that some currently pure RC flyers like the idea and we get 5, 10 or more new competitors in FF scale than that can only be a good thing.  A number of people have had a word with me about starting in FF scale who have never been anywhere near FF except when they were kids with KK rubber scale models 30/40 years ago

As said before on many occasions, if you want your views to be discussed over whether gyros should be allowed, allowed with penalties, or not allowed at all, then email Andy Sephton and those views will be discussed in STC meetings, where the merits and demerits will be compared and new rules may or may not be created and adopted for the new rule book each year. 

If you don't like the decision coming out of the STC, then volunteer to sit on the committee and give up some 4 or 5 Saturdays each year and make your opinions count because you will now have a vote at that meeting.
By all means keep debating it on here, but it won't get heard at STC - where the decisions are made on behalf of all competitors and for the best way forward and to good of the sport.

John M


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 03, 2019, 10:16:01 AM
Allowing gyros is not as simple as many think (there are many different types and capabilities) and still requires a good deal of understanding and a different approach to FF trimming.
Au contraire, allowing gyros is as simple as the STC doing nothing.
I gather  using gyros is pretty simple. At least that´s what people who have actually used them tell me.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Indoorflyer on September 03, 2019, 10:29:27 AM
An autopilot not only keeps an aircraft "stabilized" or in equilibrium, but it also navigates the aircraft along a specific trajectory. An aircraft could be in stabilized flight, circling and climbing while drifting downwind. An "autopilot" would keep it circling over the field. The autopilot would make the necessary corrections adjusting bank angle and pitch to keep the plane at a set altitude, orbiting within the confines of the flying field.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 03, 2019, 10:30:18 AM

If it means that some currently pure RC flyers like the idea and we get 5, 10 or more new competitors in FF scale than that can only be a good thing.  A number of people have had a word with me about starting in FF scale who have never been anywhere near FF except when they were kids with KK rubber scale models 30/40 years ago
That would be remarkable indeed. If two, 5, 10 new competitors arrive, flying models all in identical  patterns but 10 pack it in because it is no longer the hobby they joined, is that a good thing?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 03, 2019, 03:56:51 PM
I would quite like to send my views to the STC as suggested, but I haven't entirely decided what they are yet. That's where this kind of forum discussion helps. I'd particularly like to know what the people who've actually used gyros in competition (Steve Glass, Ivan, anyone else?) think should happen regarding the way their own models are flight judged. I do want to keep seeing Steve's gyro equipped models flying at contests because they are just brilliant to watch, but whist I doubt the presence of a few gyro equipped models would ever stop me competing (assuming they find their way into rubber models too) I'd ideally prefer not to have to set my own limited trimming skills directly against them.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Jack Plane on September 03, 2019, 04:16:27 PM

I would quite like to send my views to the STC as suggested, but I haven't entirely decided what they are yet. That's where this kind of forum discussion helps...


I agree with this.

I also have my own initial views, but I'm not an outdoor FF scale competitor so I won't put on my waders!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on September 03, 2019, 04:22:45 PM
I agree too the forum is very helpful in these matters

Steve outlined his method a while ago on here which my be a useful reminder about the technology. The results speak for themselves

https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=23024.0 (https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=23024.0)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 03, 2019, 07:22:06 PM
I agree too but in a similar way to Jack Plane, I can only give an opinion from the perspective of a fan of outdoor scale.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on September 04, 2019, 06:33:59 AM
Hmmmm...... I am not a competitor - I am not knowledgeable in electronics - I am not au fait with how these things work - I am not really qualified I do not think to put a case to the STC nor sit on such committee.  I admire the ability of people who do understand electronics and can use gyros for example.  In the same way I also admire someone who can build trim and fly a FF Scale model in the old fashioned way.   Were I to enter a contest one day - which I keep intending to do- I would do so in the spirit of it all - accept the rules which are clear and reasonable and take my chances without protest.   How can I do anything else.  If I don't like the game I should not play.

It is however natural for people want to use this forum for example to discuss things - particularly if they are keen on free flight scale.  The depth of their feelings and to some degree "qualifications" should determine how far they take things.  My view is those who participate are sensible enough to behave accordingly.  I have seen no sign of a tantrum - no frenzied remainers etc. throwing toys out the pram.

As I understand it non scale dihedral is penalised - so then should any other method of combating the affect of instability by non scale dihedral or other circumstances arising due to the size of the model in relation to the full size version - and also the absence of a pilot controlling things.  A "fighter" aeroplane (full size) will be unstable by design to perform as required in use.  But it has a pilot to help keep it in the air.  So is a set of electronics in an otherwise FF scale model a substitute for a pilot? And thus allowed?   So you see there can be endless views put forward to justify ones view.  Either way.

So far then it comes back to Bill's suggestion as being certainly a compromise for the moment.   I hope this will ensure that people will not walk away from FF Scale.  Appeasement might attract new entrants but not sure - certainly if they find that use of electronic gizmos can count against them.

Maybe I am a dinosaur (good happy with that I think)  but to me FF Scale model aircraft should be as near as possible to imitating the original in all respects but retaining the concept of free flight as it has been known and largely loved for most of my life anyway.  Why? Because of "tradition". People can nonetheless play with technology as it comes along and thus "progress" - or not as they are so inclined.  If they want to enter the established FF Scale competition circuit they can do so but if the model they enter is dependant upon "gizmos" to perform as it does then penalties apply.  And is that not already accepted?

Perhaps by this discussion things have got too distorted and complex.  Give Bill's idea a chance to show one way of the other. That way we don't start re- writing the rules - just a tweak?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: 3view on September 04, 2019, 04:03:43 PM
Just got back from our holidays.  After the nats, we had a few days in York and then boozy few days in Masham in North Yorkshire visiting the Theakston and Black Sheep breweries.





Oh dear, I don't know what to say?

I only started this stabilisation nonsense so we could all fly the aeroplanes that really inspire and maybe to attract new blood?  Did you see the the RC scale flightline? The younger chaps were all flying jets and warbirds.

I would like to take some credit for the way the Chipmunk flew- you can't blame it all on the gyro.

The Typhoon might well have tip-stalled? after the motor suddenly cut? possibly from the rc cutoff going into failsafe?........Work in progress.

I don't like the idea of a tag-along event.  A suitably punitive penalty for using a gyro should be enough to stop gyro-users from darkening the podium steps.

Steve

P.S.

P.M. me if you are interested in exploring ff stabilisation

Steve

 

 


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 04, 2019, 04:27:14 PM
I agree Steve .... the number of subjects that stabilisation makes viable is too great to ignore.
Perhaps a sliding scale of penalties could be arrived at .... with a small penalty for "difficult" subjects? eg. Low wingers.
I certainly enjoyed watching your models at the Nats ... and I certainly wouldn't want to see them "outlawed"!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on September 04, 2019, 05:05:18 PM
I don't see any intention to outlaw models like Steve's????  Is it not no more than another method of stabilising a model that otherwise would be difficult to fly acceptably?  And so it needs looking at to assess what to do about it?  But that said some people have clearly mastered the art of getting models that years ago would not have been considered as a project, to fly acceptably without gyros? 


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 05, 2019, 02:46:52 AM
Many people are suggesting a points penalty. Could someone please tell me  why?
Bill


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 05, 2019, 03:44:19 AM
By all means keep debating it on here, but it won't get heard at STC - where the decisions are made on behalf of all competitors and for the best way forward and to good of the sport.

John M
As others have said, debating on here is the only way I know of comparing views. When the STC discuss this, the only views that should be considered are those of the sixteen or so blokes who flew at the Nationals, plus experienced flight judges. Very few of them come on here, but they have been asked to comment to the STC.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 05, 2019, 05:00:46 AM
I don't see any intention to outlaw models like Steve's???? 

Nor would I like to see any intention to outlaw them introduced in the future, David.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: cvasecuk on September 05, 2019, 05:31:29 AM
Bill, A points penalty system was proposed by Steve on 18th March 2018. I quote....

For free-flight scale competition I would like to see modern stabilisation allowed, however, with a negative bonus system in place.
Something like this..............
1 axis stabilised ............ -15% flight score deducted
2 axes stabilised ...........  -30%
3 axes stabilised...........  -45%
K factors remain unchanged.............. simple!
What are your thoughts?
Steve


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on September 05, 2019, 08:13:34 AM
A bit lost again - sorry!  Don't we have a form of  points penalty/handicap'negative bonus system already? 

Sorry Russ - did not mean to suggest you did - but it is a bit complicated for me and I wanted to be sure that no one had suggested outlawing "stabilised" models like Steve.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 05, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
No need to apologise, David .... we are in agreement!
No, wait a minute ..... Bostonians at dawn! ... or peanuts if you win the toss ;-)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on September 05, 2019, 09:45:57 AM
Quote
A bit lost again - sorry!  Don't we have a form of  points penalty/handicap'negative bonus system already? 

No, currently there is no penalty for using gyros


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 05, 2019, 11:50:38 AM
Bill, A points penalty system was proposed by Steve on 18th March 2018. I quote....

For free-flight scale competition I would like to see modern stabilisation allowed, however, with a negative bonus system in place.
Something like this..............
1 axis stabilised ............ -15% flight score deducted
2 axes stabilised ...........  -30%
3 axes stabilised...........  -45%
K factors remain unchanged.............. simple!
What are your thoughts?
Steve
Hello Ron. My thoughts are keeping me awake at night so I am trying to sort them out.
The first dichotomy seems to be between those who want penalties and those who do not because gyros represent the future. My question ´why penalties´has elicited no responses thus far but the only possible answer is that those asking for them acknowledge that gyro models have a significant advantage. Which they do.
The next question would be, at what level do you set the penalty and what do you want to achieve? Stop them winning? Make sure they come halfway down the results?On what basis do you assess this advantage and turn it into a %? I´ve seen proposals ranging from -5% to -45%. You can play with these using the results on the STC website and see where the gyro models would come: which FF entrants would be pushed down the list. Furthermore I suspect the % effect will vary with the weather conditions, so please let´s have no more talk about level playing fields. Any results featuring penalised gyro models would have even less credibility than the current free for all. It´s certainly a bigger problem than I can see my way through.

That´s why I think separate classes is the only honest way to go. However, I have sealed an envelope containing my prediction that nothing will be done and gyro models will continue to be allowed unpenalised.
Bill




Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 05, 2019, 11:57:12 AM
Why are they penalised in RC scale?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Indoorflyer on September 05, 2019, 12:06:00 PM
Having n-axis stabilization where n=1 to3, is a form of mechanical doping!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 05, 2019, 12:18:51 PM
Bill,
I was waiting for clarification on your own stance to have full understanding of your question.
If these models are to be ran in a separate class, then no penalties are required.
If included inside existing competition then something must be looked at to "appease" competitors that prefer to do things in the time honoured fashion.
My own view is that a separate class could have a great future.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 05, 2019, 12:37:21 PM
Why are they penalised in RC scale?
Pete, it´s a totally different scenario. In RC, gyros are used to smooth  out manouevres, not to make the model fly in the first place - the pilot does that. For years they were banned but at WC level, it was well known that cheats were using them, so we gave in. They are easily hidden on a big model
Only in one section of the flying schedule is there a penalty - smoothness of flight - and it is a very small part of the total


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 05, 2019, 01:24:39 PM
Having n-axis stabilization where n=1 to3, is a form of mechanical doping!
Indoor, that´s exactly what I was going to say but for the sake of everyone else who doesn´t understand, could you explain please (!!!)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Squirrelnet on September 05, 2019, 02:01:58 PM
Quote
My question ´why penalties´has elicited no responses thus far but the only possible answer is that those asking for them acknowledge that gyro models have a significant advantage.

 Well yes it is clear that gyro models have an advantage.

The very difficult, you may say impossible task, is to add a penalty to using them so that the advantage is reduced to the point where they have a near equal chance of winning. I can see that  anything but calm conditions would play even more to the favour of the gyro models so some account would have to be made for wind speed as well .  It is also worth noting that at present the gyros have been used on models that would be difficult to trim without them and that should be factored into any points system to favour their use on unstable designs

 Such systems of handicapping work well in simpler disciplines with less variables such as motorsport ( or any Top Gear Challenge on the telly) but I can see this may not be a sufficient answer for the complexity of free flight.

This is all unknown territory, we don't know how many modellers will adopt their use and what sort of model they will be fitted too. The danger I can see once the systems are finessed further and more readily available commercially is that it may become a way of buying your way to flight stability and destroying the need for the trimming skills we've all taken time and effort to learn and with it much of the love and enthusiasm for the hobby.  The role of points system would also to be to prevent this becoming an easy way to victory..

..so it's all sounding rather complicated. Running the class as normal and then splitting out the results suggested by Bill seems the simplest solution so far, particularly in the short term when the number of gyro users is small.

After the Nationals I think doing nothing is not an option

As an edit to this.

 It may be relevant that the most popular FF Scale discipline at present is Kit Scale - a return to traditional modelling and trimming skills. The hi tech approach may be a turn off for some... look at the current state of some of  the FF Duration classes


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 05, 2019, 03:54:47 PM
Why are they penalised in RC scale?
Pete, it´s a totally different scenario. In RC, gyros are used to smooth  out manouevres, not to make the model fly in the first place - the pilot does that.
Thanks- I'm sure that's true, although when I asked my dad if his model having a gyro meant he could fly more comfortably in conditions he'd previously have considered too windy, he said yes.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 05, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Why are they penalised in RC scale?
Pete, it´s a totally different scenario. In RC, gyros are used to smooth  out manouevres, not to make the model fly in the first place - the pilot does that.
Thanks- I'm sure that's true, although when I asked my dad if his model having a gyro meant he could fly more comfortably in conditions he'd previously have considered too windy, he said yes.

Yes, that´s the smoothness of flight. I´d love to know what Martin (one of our most experienced judges) thinks about all this.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 05, 2019, 05:16:45 PM
I shall ask him and report back. He didn’t judge at Barkston this year of course. He asked me what I thought about gyros though and, not having entirely decided, I thought I said something to the effect that I wasn’t really sure. Then Terry Manley sat down and Dad said, “What do you think of gyros in free flight scale, Terry? Pete reckons they should be illegal!”


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Indoorflyer on September 06, 2019, 12:41:40 AM
Having n-axis stabilization where n=1 to3, is a form of mechanical doping!
Indoor, that´s exactly what I was going to say but for the sake of everyone else who doesn´t understand, could you explain please (!!!)

I made my comment in the context of bicycle racing:  Two strong climbers are in a  race to the summit, one just pulling ahead in the final stretch. Later, it's "discovered" the winner actually had a small electric motor boost hidden in the bicycle frame.  The argument is: he had cheated, and won with an active, mechanical performance "enhancement."   Now what if it were also discovered that a good portion of the peloton  had employed motor boosts on their bikes as well? Makes the contribution of a motor  somewhat vague; apparently works better for some riders and their bikes than others.  Puts the second place guy in an interesting spot: he won the "noble" race, but not the event trophy!  The sanctioning body voids the result (everybody is a loser) and issues a new rule: no motors. (by now our second place guy has retired from cycle racing and moved on)  The first place guy starts a new company that builds motor assisted bicycles, for a newly formed, sanctioned category of racing!   Lots of new, young riders join the "e-bike" racing ranks...(Taking it to an extreme here, to make a point)

It all boils down to:  what should the coefficient of friction be, on that slippery slope?"   Reminds me of those word games where you replace one letter at a time, creating a succession of different words, until you have a completely different set of letters and a new end word...



Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 06, 2019, 01:55:11 AM
Having n-axis stabilization where n=1 to3, is a form of mechanical doping!
Indoor, that´s exactly what I was going to say but for the sake of everyone else who doesn´t understand, could you explain please (!!!)

I made my comment in the context of bicycle racing:  Two strong climbers are in a  race to the summit, one just pulling ahead in the final stretch. Later, it's "discovered" the winner actually had a small electric motor boost hidden in the bicycle frame.  The argument is: he had cheated, and won with an active, mechanical performance "enhancement."   Now what if it were also discovered that a good portion of the peloton  had employed motor boosts on their bikes as well? Makes the contribution of a motor  somewhat vague; apparently works better for some riders and their bikes than others.  Puts the second place guy in an interesting spot: he won the "noble" race, but not the event trophy!  The sanctioning body voids the result (everybody is a loser) and issues a new rule: no motors. (by now our second place guy has retired from cycle racing and moved on)  The first place guy starts a new company that builds motor assisted bicycles, for a newly formed, sanctioned category of racing!   Lots of new, young riders join the "e-bike" racing ranks...(Taking it to an extreme here, to make a point)

It all boils down to:  what should the coefficient of friction be, on that slippery slope?"   Reminds me of those word games where you replace one letter at a time, creating a succession of different words, until you have a completely different set of letters and a new end word...


Thanks!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 06, 2019, 01:58:33 AM
I shall ask him and report back. He didn’t judge at Barkston this year of course. He asked me what I thought about gyros though and, not having entirely decided, I thought I said something to the effect that I wasn’t really sure. Then Terry Manley sat down and Dad said, “What do you think of gyros in free flight scale, Terry? Pete reckons they should be illegal!”
I can hear Martin saying that; the master of the quiet wind-up!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Jack Plane on September 06, 2019, 02:00:43 AM
Well expressed Indoor - and Chris earlier too.

The problem as I see it is that a handicapping system (such as that sensibly expressed previously) would have to be equally artificial to compensate, but this would have to fine-tuned over a number of years and models to arrive at a satisfactory balance, and even then there'd be an unease.  If there were larger numbers of participants in the discipline generally, then this would be a quicker process.  Then again, if the numbers were there in the first place, the fairest solution would be to just split the class into two - much as electric/CO2 flying is separated from rubber in indoor scale - but I don't imagine they are.

All rules distort competitions in some ways or others.  This isn't a problem in say chess or motor-racing (here, despite the constant advance of technological edges, the vehicles are all essentially the same), but presents us aero-modellers with a dilemma as we have a terrific range of types of full-size aircraft to choose from.  Do we model subjects which interest us for personal reasons (romantic, aesthetic, technical, historic, etc), or do we just choose those which stand to gain best from the class rules as they are at any given point?



Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 06, 2019, 03:08:13 AM
 Do we model subjects which interest us for personal reasons (romantic, aesthetic, technical, historic, etc), or do we just choose those which stand to gain best from the class rules as they are at any given point?
I would guess most of us do the former. I am lucky in that the aircraft from periods that interest me generally have a reasonable chance.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on September 06, 2019, 07:59:24 AM
Now things have moved away fro the orignal concept (what to do about gyros in `FF Scale) if they are allowed in RC Scale then is it not wide open for a move away from the original skill of building and flying a model appropriately (i.e. how the original flew) to one where any "gizmo" is allowed to assist the pilot even though nothing of the kind appeared in the original full size?  My impression is that disregard of the builder rule is now overlooked or condoned? OK that seems what people want so the "purist" does not bother with it?  Does it matter?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Bryanair on September 06, 2019, 10:08:19 AM
 My impression is that disregard of the builder rule is now overlooked or condoned?
[/quote]

Not in Free Flight or R/C Scale as far as I know David.

All entrants have to sign a Competitor's Declaration Form stating which parts of the model they did not make.  The BMFA Scale rule book page 3 section 6.1.1.3 goes into detail about the builder of the model rule.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 06, 2019, 10:22:14 AM
My impression is that disregard of the builder rule is now overlooked or condoned? OK that seems what people want so the "purist" does not bother with it?  Does it matter?
No it isn´t, no they don´t, yes it does. See Bryan´s reply


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 06, 2019, 11:45:29 AM
But David, please feel free to tell my dad, who has installed a gyro in his latest biplane (and over the last 60 years has probably built and flown more self-designed RC scale models than anyone else currently competing) that he is “disregarding the builder rule.”  ;D


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: SP250 on September 06, 2019, 05:12:21 PM
DJP

Don't know where you got the idea that the BoM rule was disregarded or overlooked.

Certainly in all UK scale competitions, exept flying only, it is a requirement. 
F4H or standoff now allows ARTF's but you have to recover or repaint to be allowed. 
FAI international rules, changed this year, still require BoM in F4C, but now not in F4H which all the western countries did not want. 
Like having a world championship class for beginners - which is a complete nonsense, may as well have a flying only competition. 
Basically someone with deep pockets can now buy last years WC winner in F4C and give it to the top aerobatic/pattern flyer and he can win the WC at F4H - totally bonkers.

John M


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: OZPAF on September 06, 2019, 11:08:36 PM
I'm not a FF scale flyer but enjoy FF sport models . FF scale intrigues me because of the added difficulty of trimming the models - which as Chris and Bill have pointed out requires a better understanding of flight - the essence for me.

My personal opinion is that Gyro assisted FF models should have their own separate class - eventually with a separate FAI category as they are not FF models but are autonomously controlled models- no more FF than a similarly controlled RC model.

If stabilized models are accepted in FF scale then it would be theoretically possible to fly RC scale models in the class.

The next step for these models may be to incorporate a mini GPS receiver and flight computer so that a pre programmed flight path can be set up, with the model flying circuits over a set point - regardless of the wind. Hardly FF.

I hope common sense prevails

John





Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: DavidJP on September 07, 2019, 08:17:14 AM
Oh dear what a booboo.  Senior moment and all that for which I apologise and understand your rebukes. I had (honestly and truthfully) meant to say “at International level” or similar (cannot remember exactly). 

Well I didn’t really did I Pete but OK I will as my punishment for misleading you all.  Introduce me at next opportunity!

By the way one reason I have the notion of the BoM being disregarded at International level is a picture I saw years back of two contestants, looking  at what appeared to be a manual for the model.

Again my apologies!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 22, 2019, 07:15:57 AM
A month after the event and there are still no official results.  Is there a problem?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 22, 2019, 09:25:11 AM
I did prefer the old ScaleBMFA site ... updated by Gordon I understand? Give me an "old fashioned" "static" website against these mobile sites that jitter and jump about so nothing seems to be in the same place twice.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 22, 2019, 09:28:10 AM
.... having said that, one of my sites was last updated in 2005 ... so forgive my hypocrisy!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 22, 2019, 09:33:30 AM
I think the custodian of the web site does have an impact.
We have just lost Tony Beckett .... he maintained the PMFC website superbly. A sad loss as an nice person and aeromodeller ... not sure how he will be replaced as administrator of the website.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: SP250 on September 22, 2019, 09:54:48 AM
Russ

The old website was run and updated by Ian Pallister not Gordon Warburton. 
Certainly over the last 5 years or so, since I have been on the STC and agreed to take over website updates a year ago.

One reason for having the new site, was to reduce costs, as it is an off-shoot of the main BMFA one and the STC does not have to pay for a domain name or extra website hosting fees.  Many clubs take advantage of this offer as well.

Not quite sure I understand the reference to things jumping around - every thing has remained in the same place other than tidying up the downloads section and the results.  Please address any complaint regarding results to Jo Hallman, as all results now follow her directive of where and how they are displayed.

Cheers John M




Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 22, 2019, 11:29:57 AM
Jon,

I'm just expressing my preference for the older type of website.
Not a criticism of anyone ... more a compliment to Gordon and Ian. What's not to like about a website that was almost invariably updated within a day? The point I was making was that simple and efficient may not be as fancy as some of the modern sites, but the job gets done.
I'll have to demonstrate a jittery site next time I see you!


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 22, 2019, 11:35:35 AM
..  I understand the cost saving aspect BTW  :)



Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 22, 2019, 12:35:43 PM
Obviously the website is very clear to a sharp minded individual like me, but I think someone who was not quite so known for his quick thinking and was just browsing the website to see the scale nats results would easily be fooled into thinking they could just go to the 'Contests and Events' tab, then choose 'Contest Results- BMFA' and then go to 'scale', and then to '2019', without realising that after 'Contest Results- BMFA' they need to click on 'British National Championships' before they go to '2019' and onlythen go to 'scale'. Like I said, crystal clear to me, but some people do need spoon feeding.  :D


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 22, 2019, 01:02:46 PM
I think it's time for the old backstop .... I think it's my device. ::)
Even your very helpful spoon feeding didn't get me there, Pete.
I get folders that won't open.
My last proper job was Estimator, CAD Draughtsman AND IT Manager ... I estimate that I should have drawn the line before I took on IT ...... ::)


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 22, 2019, 01:08:22 PM
To be serious for a moment, could you post a link please ... I really cannot open any results  :(


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 22, 2019, 01:33:06 PM
Anyway, when you get there, the results are partial, and provisional. When they come through, I hope to see all six flights.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 22, 2019, 01:40:39 PM
I can’t open them on my phone either, only on my PC. I’m out at the mo but I’ll try posting a link when I’m home. As Bill says,  results for the ff scale are not full, but the main scores are there. Hopefully the other flight scores can be added soon. I think the delay issue is maybe related to the heat induced computer failure on day, which I know caused massive headaches for the poor people concerned. Maybe Gordon’s trusty system had a coat of heatproof dope or a rubber powered fan or something?


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 22, 2019, 01:59:25 PM
Thanks Pete ... I thought it might be a mobile issue even though mine is quite up to date.
It makes me realise how little time I spend on my desktop for modelling lately.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: billdennis747 on September 22, 2019, 02:37:47 PM
I think the delay issue is maybe related to the heat induced computer failure on day, which I know caused massive headaches for the poor people concerned
No, they were conducting a review of the scoring. Ivan's TSR2 had not been awarded a 10% twin-engine bonus and it needed recalculating. Evidently an involved job.


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 22, 2019, 02:57:43 PM
Thanks for clarifying, Bill. Anyway, here's a link which may or may not work on Russ's phone: https://bmfa.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=3280&language=en-GB&PortalId=0&TabId=281


Title: Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on September 22, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
Thanks Pete ... that worked  :)