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Events and Competitions (All Model Categories) => Event Announcements => Topic started by: Laurence Marks on July 14, 2021, 04:36:11 PM



Title: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Laurence Marks on July 14, 2021, 04:36:11 PM
Dear all

Some of you may have known that we were quietly planning to run a 2021 Dreaming Spires event in September.  The council have a rule that all events need to have a covid compliant event plan and risk assessment, whatever the status at the time of the event.

The "open to the public" nature of Port Meadow means that running a covid compliant event is impossible.

So we've decided to call the event off.  We'll have another go in 2022.

Laurence



Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Squirrelnet on July 14, 2021, 04:37:55 PM
Thanks Laurence  thanks for letting us know


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Russ Lister on July 14, 2021, 06:08:33 PM
Sorry to hear this, Laurence ... it really is a long road out of this situation.


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: billdennis747 on July 15, 2021, 03:29:41 AM
Sorry to hear this, Laurence ... it really is a long road out of this situation.
If fifteen blokes wandering around a vast open space in a breeze,  as a member of the public wanders past with a dog is not allowed, that road is going to be very long indeed.


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: vintagemike on July 15, 2021, 04:12:43 AM
Perhaps you can hold it at Wembley stadium instead!


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Russ Lister on July 15, 2021, 05:13:19 AM
Perhaps you can hold it at Wembley stadium instead!

If you wave money about then 'the powers' seem to be able to say "yes' .... otherwise the default response seems to be set to "no".
This was happening before covid. ..... back in 2008 I had a conversation about my proposed shed at the local council office that turned into a game where they wouldn't say yes to anything.


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Pete Fardell on July 15, 2021, 07:31:00 AM
If councils’ default answer is “no” then maybe we need to ask different questions. Eg. “Please can you give us consent to cancel our free flight meeting?”

Seriously though, thanks Laurence and all at Oxford MAC for your continued efforts to get things going again. Whenever we eventually get back, it will be brilliant!


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: PeeTee on July 15, 2021, 07:35:12 AM
Pete, don't you mean "if we ever get back"   ::) ::)


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Russ Lister on July 15, 2021, 09:35:22 AM
If councils’ default answer is “no” then maybe we need to ask different questions. Eg. “Please can you give us consent to cancel our free flight meeting?”


You could try it, but I think they would refuse to answer that one .... a bit like the Fonz in Happy Days.  ::)

As Pete says, it will be great when you can organise something   :)


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: kkphantom on July 15, 2021, 10:12:02 AM
At least that solves my problem as to whether I should attend Dreaming Spires or Flying Aces at Peterborough. Mind you Peterborough is in a public open space so I won't get too excited...
Gary


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Russ Lister on July 15, 2021, 10:17:15 AM
Hopefully the Peterborough event is going ahead .... the last time that the marvellous Brians will be organising it.
 They work closely with the Nene Park Trust (the right organisation I think?)


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Pete Fardell on July 15, 2021, 12:20:07 PM
At least that solves my problem as to whether I should attend Dreaming Spires or Flying Aces at Peterborough.
I was planning on attending both as they didn’t clash anyway did they? DS would’ve been on a Thursday.


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: kkphantom on July 15, 2021, 01:02:53 PM
They are only a few days apart Pete, over ten days in a narrowboat though!
Gary


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: TheLurker on July 15, 2021, 02:16:32 PM
Oh I say! What's a chap supposed to do for free cake and a proper length 1/8" bungee now?  :)

That is a shame, I was looking forward to it, I even had permission to take the day off work.  Better luck next year.


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Squirrelnet on July 15, 2021, 02:53:30 PM
Quote
Oh I say! What's a chap supposed to do for free cake and a proper length 1/8" bungee now?  Smiley

Well if free cake is what you're after Ivan Taylor is running a suitable free flight scale soiree at North Luffenham the weekend before in which Albert Ball cake will be on offer for all participants... not sure about the length or indeed of the presence of a bungie though.

Fingers crossed 2022 competitions at Port Meadow will be possible as its such a nice site and such a nice club (OK slight bias there  ;))


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: SP250 on July 16, 2021, 08:22:07 AM
Slightly off topic - but still on FF scale flying.

The cutoff date for entries for the revised scale FF nationals has been extended to July 29th.  Was supposed to close yesterday.
Whilst they are being held at Buckminster, which is not as FF friendly as Barkston, please support them by entering and if not, please don't whinge that there are no events to fly at as the STC have worked long and hard and jumped through a lot of hoops to make a scale nationals event happen at all.

Entry form available from Mike Smith or on the STC website or from Chris Allen.

Regards John M


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: modelmad on July 18, 2021, 10:56:41 AM
Find it strange that 36500 people can be packed into the british grand prix this week-end but a couple of dozen people on a open common is considered to be to high a risk to take.

Long flights & happy landings, Simon.


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: vintagemike on July 19, 2021, 04:43:31 AM
Hence my earlier comment about Wembley stadium


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: billdennis747 on July 19, 2021, 05:31:11 AM
Find it strange that 36500 people can be packed into the british grand prix this week-end
I think it was 140,000 and scarcely a mask in sight. Same with the golf. It's infuriating, but these are 'grown up' activities aren't they.
Anyway it's OW 'Scale' weekend next.


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: oldgit on July 19, 2021, 03:19:59 PM
could it have anything to do with no spectators, Silverstone was bust, off to the PM to get permission to hold it without masks etc.
ps sorry about the cynical thoughts

Roger


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: DavidJP on July 20, 2021, 04:19:48 AM
Authorities like local government have a guaranteed income and are not accountable.  They do not, as is the case with a commercial institution for example, have to be cost efficient or make a profit.  Were they so required then in the majority would be in receivership.

Many who work for local government adhere vigorously to the lead swingers charter and are experts in work avoidance.  This enables them to lead a relatively stress free existence.  So as has been rightly said if asked for a “permission” to hold an activity invariably the answer is no.  This avoids making any form of decision that might incur an element of responsibility or involve thought and heaven forbid effort. 

This is said from the experience of many years of working with local government.  And it got worse as time passed.

I do admire the ability though to be able to write a letter of some length that says absolutely nothing about anything, particularly the question that may have been asked and their ability to hold meetings that clearly are no more than an acceptable alternative to work.


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Jez Wilkins on July 20, 2021, 07:12:48 AM
Authorities like local government have a guaranteed income and are not accountable.  They do not, as is the case with a commercial institution for example, have to be cost efficient or make a profit.  Were they so required then in the majority would be in receivership.

Many who work for local government adhere vigorously to the lead swingers charter and are experts in work avoidance.  This enables them to lead a relatively stress free existence.  So as has been rightly said if asked for a “permission” to hold an activity invariably the answer is no.  This avoids making any form of decision that might incur an element of responsibility or involve thought and heaven forbid effort. 

This is said from the experience of many years of working with local government.  And it got worse as time passed.

I do admire the ability though to be able to write a letter of some length that says absolutely nothing about anything, particularly the question that may have been asked and their ability to hold meetings that clearly are no more than an acceptable alternative to work.

Hi David JP.

I have reported your post to the HPA Moderators - first time that I have done so in all the years that I have been on this site.  Never read such a load of old codswallop!!  And yes - I do have some 'inside knowledge'.:)  Also, this is an Aeromodelling forum - what has your post to do with Aeromodelling?

Cheers,

Jez Wilkins


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Russ Lister on July 20, 2021, 08:31:03 AM
Jez,
It is an opinion.... just like yours .... and we are talking about flying model aeroplanes.
I have very little experience with local authorities in this way, but sadly my experiences were quite negative for the most part. Just the experience I have had .... your experiences might be different?


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Squirrelnet on July 20, 2021, 08:57:17 AM
Council's do seem to like lots of bureaucracy and can sometimes drive you mad but just to clarify they didn't actually say NO

As Laurence's first post says - the Events dept of the Council are asking for both an events management plan and a Covid risk assessment both, no doubt due to the uncertainty and the ever changing Covid rules . These will present insurmountable difficulties as it is a public space and practically impossible to run the event under such conditions so the decision was taken by the club that it was untenable

Hats off to Laurence and the club for persevering as it was originally going to be in June but in the end it is I fear a victim of the current times

Hopefully they will have less obstacles next year and Dreaming Spires will return in 2022  ;D





Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Russ Lister on July 20, 2021, 09:25:35 AM
Indeed, hats off to anyone organising any event in our hobby ... I know that I couldn't do it.


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Indoorflyer on July 20, 2021, 11:32:54 AM
Wow.  Feels just like Facebook!


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: DavidJP on July 20, 2021, 12:09:03 PM
Oh gosh Indoor I did not mean to sink to those depths,  honestly!

I rather thought my post would go without much comment if any.  For what it is worth Jez I am not upset or offended by your comments.  That is your view and you are entitled to it. Thankfully we have not yet got to a stage where one cannot express an opinion on this type of thing.

I echo the comments about the difficulties of organising an event.  Clearly on this occasion the local authority have a box that must be ticked and that is sacrosanct. No flexibility. The club has taken the only decision open to them in the circumstances. 

It is a reflection of our society today.  For many years, living in London, I was able to enjoy attempting to fly my models in local parks and other open spaces - even at weekends in the playing field of a High School on occasions without let or hindrance.  It was not unusual in the parks for a Park Keeper, in his brown three piece suit and trilby hat to come across and show an interest.  Events often took place on Wimbledon Common.

But things change.  We, the people are responsible, nothing else and so beaurocracy in its various guises has evolved to suite.  I think it is sad because having been there I have witnessed the transition and do not like it.  Covid is blamed for many things unjustly and on occasions to advantage.  This form of control has been with us for quite a while and will continue to thrive.

It is a first for me Jez - I have not to my knowledge been reported to a moderator on a site such as this.

So I continue to fly my models now in some isolation - just with a few friends - largely undisturbed - and am content. Visiting events and seeing how some very able people do it was always very enjoyable, always friendly and never disturbing anyone.  But all good things sadly come to an end.  I often wonder what Col. Bowden would make of it - but you know somehow I don’t think it would have happened.


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: TheLurker on July 21, 2021, 01:17:29 PM
The thing about Wembley & other stadium based events is that they are in controlled spaces and you can, at least in theory, track everyone present and stand a reasonable chance of being able to provide a plan to reduce contagion by controlling movement and separation as well as following up those who may be infected after the event is over.  If the space isn't controlled you simply can't do that.  Any old anonymous Typhoid Mary could wander through and infect everyone present and given that, there's no way that OMFC can ever present a plan to mitigate the risk of infection on the wilds of Portmeadow.  As far as the council's response goes,  I think they're in a, "damned if they do, damned if they don't" position and I'm glad I don't have that job.

Speaking *entirely* for myself I would happily and far rather attend something like Dreaming Spires in a wide open space with a few dozen people than go anywhere near a plague factory like Wembley or Wimbledon.   Never mind.  To borrow and bend phrase from a more sacred occasion , "Next year on Portmeadow.  

Cheers,
Lurk


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Jez Wilkins on July 21, 2021, 07:10:13 PM
Council's do seem to like lots of bureaucracy and can sometimes drive you mad but just to clarify they didn't actually say NO

As Laurence's first post says - the Events dept of the Council are asking for both an events management plan and a Covid risk assessment both, no doubt due to the uncertainty and the ever changing Covid rules . These will present insurmountable difficulties as it is a public space and practically impossible to run the event under such conditions so the decision was taken by the club that it was untenable

Hats off to Laurence and the club for persevering as it was originally going to be in June but in the end it is I fear a victim of the current times

Hopefully they will have less obstacles next year and Dreaming Spires will return in 2022  ;D

Thanks, Squirrelnet, for the post, clarification and reference back to the first post in this thread, which makes it clear that it was a club decision that the meeting was untenable.  No [U.K.] Council can pass its own laws and everything that they do stems from legislation passed by Government.  I no longer work in the Public Sector - but you can bet that every change in our lives over the past sixteen months or so (the 'Lockdowns' and the various 'easings' - including the one this Monday just gone) - will have had a legislative basis.  Back in November 2020, I was sent, by an Aeromodelling friend, a .pdf copy of a Statutory Instrument - as there were discussions in his club as to whether or not they could legally be flying on the club field.  I cannot attach a .pdf file here - and whilst a 'link' to the Regulations - which are secondary legislation (but are law - or, at least, were at the time that they came into force) still exists https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1200/contents (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1200/contents) - the regulations have been revoked - so there is nothing for you to read.  Suffice to state that the .pdf version that I received ran to 32 pages and, if I remember correctly, also required require reference to other Regulations, or maybe to Acts, to get definitions of some of the phrases used.

You mention opinion/experiences Russ - mine are based on more that two decades of working in the Public Sector, always dealing face-to-face with the public - so not what I would describe as even 'middle management' level - let alone any higher. In all that time (and I have given this significant thought, since my last post) I can only recall two people (both male) who I would describe as 'lead swingers' (one older, a former compositor/typesetter) and one younger (fresh out of college?) who were often to be found 'larking around' in the office - when they should have been working.  Neither lasted very long. They were both recruited due to the 'significant' expansion in staff, required to administer a change from a well-established, property based local taxation system (General Rates) to a new, person based, local taxation system (Community Charge).  Remember that? :)  Everybody else that I ever came across/worked with/worked for was hard-working and dedicated to providing the best service that they could (often in quite difficult circumstances and not of their own making) to the public at large.  

Sort of back on topic.  Is 'Dreaming Spires' a free flight only event, or is any control line flown?  If control line is flown, how are you proposing to ensure compliance with the 30 metre distance from 'uninvolved people'', required for operations under the BMFA's 'Article 16' Authorisation - given that Port Meadow is an 'open space'?

Cheers,

Jez Wilkins

Edited, to update information relating to the 'link' to the Regulations.             

        






Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Squirrelnet on July 22, 2021, 02:45:07 AM
Dreaming Spires is a Free Flight Gala with classes for duration and scale models


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: DavidJP on July 22, 2021, 04:56:24 AM
Hear what you say Jez.  If ever you feel like a re run of things try asking for details of the BMFA insurance - I have had some very extraordinary correspondence on that just recently! 

I don’t know when your “20 years” was - my experience started probably mid sixties.  Then there were people in local government who new a thing or two.  For example Building Control, etc. And some aspects of finance but by the eighties they had all disappeared. As a couple of recent examples - being told in writing that the imposing of charges for parking related matters was not economically viable so regulations would not be enforced.  How come virtually every other council in England is out of step?  And I enquired when sone vegetation would be cut back as it was a danger due to it obstructing visibility splays at junctions.  A rambling reply advising that all number “authorities” were responsible  for this work - county - local - town councils etc. but they could not tell me which authority the junction in question came under.

It would not have happened in the old days!

As it is off topic apart from the first paragraph this post will self destruct in 24 hours.


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: Jez Wilkins on July 22, 2021, 07:55:20 AM
Dreaming Spires is a Free Flight Gala with classes for duration and scale models

Thanks for clarifying, Squirrelnet.

Hear what you say Jez.  If ever you feel like a re run of things try asking for details of the BMFA insurance - I have had some very extraordinary correspondence on that just recently! 

As it is off topic apart from the first paragraph this post will self destruct in 24 hours.

As you state, DavidJP off-topic and I don't know how you arrange for a post to 'self destruct in 24 hours' - but if it is possible to do this, a full response from me would make no sense to a later reader, without embedding the whole quote, including the off-topic bits.

A separate thread about BMFA insurance would, obviously, be aeromodelling related, if you felt inclined to start one.

Cheers,

Jez Wilkins   


Title: Re: Dreaming Spires Free Flight Rally 2021
Post by: DavidJP on July 22, 2021, 09:47:11 AM
I am done with this now Jez, as I think the discussion will become tedious and achieve nothing.  I’m merely expressed an opinion. You countered which a I accept you were entitled to do.  So I yield.  

Sorry, I can’t divulge anything on the insurance.