Hip Pocket Builders' Forum

Outdoor Free Flight Forum => Power => Topic started by: I hate trees on May 10, 2010, 11:42:46 AM



Title: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: I hate trees on May 10, 2010, 11:42:46 AM
Hello All,

Just came across a drawing of Bill Winter's All American pylon power model in the 1950 Aeromodeller Annual. It looks like it could be a good model as being 1950 would qualify for 18 secs engine run in UK events. I wonder if anyone has built one and how they go? Also, I believe the original construction article was in the June 1950 Air Trails magazine. Has anyone got that mag they could copy me the article?
Cheers,
Adam



Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: Volar libremente on May 10, 2010, 08:46:08 PM
I have published this model, the annual aeromodeller drawing and also the plane, belonging to Argentina Aeromodelling Magazine

The note is in Spanish, which I suppose is a translation of Air trails and is signed by winter look here:

http://aeromodelismovolarlibremente.blogspot.com/2009/05/all-american.html (http://aeromodelismovolarlibremente.blogspot.com/2009/05/all-american.html)

Unfortunately I do not have the note you are looking for. Anyway I hope it is helpful

regards


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: applehoney on May 10, 2010, 11:18:12 PM
As I recall the magazine of so many years ago ... Winter took measurements of a number of popular power models from various parts of the USA, averaged them out and thus drew up the "All American"

I have no idea if the outcome was successful.... I did think the fuselage was kinda heavily built.


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: DaddyO on May 11, 2010, 04:44:46 AM
Hi Adam

Get in touch with John Thompson over on the SAM 1066 website (he's the Chairman). He's built one (and most other power jobs of the period!) and he'll be able to fill you in with the details... ;)

[email protected] (email) or http://www.sam1066.org (website)

Cheers and good luck
Paul


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: I hate trees on May 16, 2010, 03:53:53 PM
Thanks for your comments guys, really interesting website Volar Libremente.

I have spoken to John Thompson, who said that its a good model and he's going to send me the article etc, so I'm keen to build it once I get the info.

Apparently John's model would climb almost out of sight with an OS max in it, but eventually succumbed as that was a bit too much power. Later he rebuilt it with an Elfin 2.49 and it was a good model and nice and safe. I've got an Elfin 2.49 so that may be the way to go.


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: I hate trees on October 01, 2010, 03:03:45 PM
Not been much action on the "power" section of Hip pocket recently, so I thought I'd treat you to a couple of pics of my All American!

It's nearly finished, it's going to weigh around 16 1/2 oz. The Elfin is still being run in so the model will be ready to fly in a week or so.

In the meantime I have some other power models calling to me to be built.


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: glidermaster on October 01, 2010, 06:12:55 PM
Nice work Mr. Trees!

You're right, not much action in the Power models section, but when it comes it's good!

John


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: binbag on October 23, 2010, 08:38:52 AM
Fantastic Model - looks wonderful. I noticed a couple of things. The fuel shutoff looks like one of the Mike Woodhouse versions. Is that the case?

Also what did you use for covering, looks a very impressive finish. Being new to power I am have trepidations as to what covering and fuel proofing/dope to use.

Thanks
Ralph


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: I hate trees on October 25, 2010, 10:17:13 AM
Glad you like the All American, Ralph.

You're right, it is a Woodhouse fuel cut off. They work well, but you have to watch that you don't accidentally knock it closed and then wonder why the engine won't start... The model is covered with heavyweight Esaki. Its easy to use and is strong, I wish they did it in black though. I'd recommend it for any vintage or classic power model where you need rigidity from the covering. Tissue over mylar is another option, which is probably a bit lighter but then you have to cover twice.

I fuelproofed the model with Aerokote. I mixed the matt and the gloss to give a satin finish. Aerokote thins with Cellulose thinners, I applied very sparingly to tail and wings and a little more to the fuselage. Diesel models don't need it so much and it is heavy.

I'm still waiting for a calm day to try this model out.
Adam


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: binbag on October 25, 2010, 03:04:00 PM
Thanks Adam;

Just a quick question, and sorry if I appear dumb. Did you dope the tissue with normal shrinking dope. Would love to see the model in full flight.

Cheers
Ralph


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: crashcaley on October 25, 2010, 05:14:11 PM
Adam, I don't know a thing about power models, but I do know a good looking model when I see one. Beautiful work, especially the covering. I hope it climbs way up for you.

Caley


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: gossie on October 25, 2010, 10:22:58 PM
Looks great. Great colours too.

I've 'navel gazed' at it in the old Aeromodeller Annual here, and sometimes wondered if anybody ever built it. The exercise is a bit like the Dynamo rubber model by Norman Marcus that was just a drawing/plan in the late 40s. Dynamo has been done though....... saw a pic of one in an '80s Aeromodeller mag.

Guess the power is a radial Elfin 2.49 by the look of the front...... or did I miss seeing that earlier? Should go well. Keep us posted please.

Diesel engined models are not too much of a problem with fuel proofing....... even a few coats of dope may do the job.


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: I hate trees on October 26, 2010, 05:24:18 AM
Thanks for your kind comments guys.

Yes Ralph, its just standard shrinking dope. I thin it about 50%, you want it thin enough so it will brush easily. I bought a nice flat artist's brush for doping, about 1" wide. Remember to hold down the wings with weights or pins, I do one panel at a time, about 3 coats should be enough. The flying surfaces will take a few days to settle down after doping.

Gossie, yes it does have a radial Elfin 2.49 in place now. Unlike the Marcus Dynamite, which was never actually built, in the All American article in the Air Trails there is a picture of a young lady holding the model, so it was built at the time. The Dynamite is the model to beat in Mini Vintage contests over here in the UK so that design found success four or five decades after Norman designed it! Hopefully it will be the same for the All American!

I'll let you all know how it goes once I've had a chance to try it.


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: binbag on October 26, 2010, 11:50:16 AM
Hi Adam;

Thanks for the information - again I'm sorry of its a bit 'Janet and John" - did you fuel proof, aerokote, over any of the doped and tissued areas, or did you just dope the wood structure.
Cheers
Ralph

p.s. I made contact with John Thompson and he pointed out that Roy Collins 'an old F1c flyer' (John's words not mine) lives about two miles away form me. I think I might make a phone call!


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: applehoney on October 26, 2010, 12:32:14 PM
If it's the Roy Collins I'm thinking of .. he's not old. He was flying at Fairlop not sixty years ago ..... ;D


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: I hate trees on October 26, 2010, 03:43:40 PM
Hi Ralph,
I doped the whole model and then I fuel-proofed the whole model. The area which needs the most fuel proofing is around the engine so I brushed it on a bit thicker in that area and was a bit more sparing on the rear of the fuselage. On the wings I put a bit more on the underside of the centre panel of the wing which gets the most exhaust oil thrown on it and the other centre. The tips are not fuel proofed, the stab has a light coat. On a diesel model its really to minimise the fuel soakage into the covering.

I hope its clear now? Remember, I'm no expert, I'm just doing what seems right when it comes to power models, based on a non proofed wing getting very oily and soaked very quickly.

Any further questions feel free to ask, someone here will know the answer.

Adam


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: gossie on October 26, 2010, 04:50:35 PM
If it's the Roy Collins I'm thinking of .. he's not old. He was flying at Fairlop not sixty years ago ..... ;D

How right you are.
Met up with Roy Collins AND Norman Marcus not long ago at the '85 WC in Yugoslavia. Norman came in in his leathers on his motorcycle.............both were like teenagers. 8)


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: Tmat on October 26, 2010, 05:05:39 PM
I met Roy in Livno too in '85. It was my first W/C and I WAS a teenager!

Tony


Title: Re: Bill Winter's "All American" power model 1950
Post by: I hate trees on November 16, 2010, 12:35:27 PM
It was a lovely day for a bit of trimming today with hardly any wind, so I finally got to give the All American a go up on Epsom downs.

From a hand launch the glide looked just about perfect. The first power flights were very safe. The model needed a little more right rudder to kick it into a groove, but it looked fine. I didn't try to get a really strong engine run as that was the first time I had run the engine in the model. On the test board the engine would start on its running settings, but I needed to open the needle way open in order to get it to suck with the installation in the model. This isnt too much of a hardship, but its a shame I can't just start it on the running settings and bung it. Now I have to wind the needle in again once its going.

The engine itself probably needs a bit more running in, as any hint of over compression and it tightens up, so I was having to fly it a little undercompressed. I'm going to put the engine back on the board and give it a bit more running. If we get another really good trimming day again soon I may borrow my dad's elfin, that goes very well.

The model looked like it was going to be very steady and probably could take a bit more power, the glide looked good as well, so it was worth the wait.

One problem is the undercarriage leg, despite being 12 gauge wire, bent back on dt and the wheel went through the bottom of the fuselage. I'm not going to bother trying to straighten this up, I may just make a recess in the fus for the wheel to go in when it dts down.

I also had my Dixielander with me and that went great with an OS15 in it so I'm basking in the afterglow of a good day's power flying :) :)