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Control Line Forum => Racing => Topic started by: gossie on June 09, 2008, 11:03:37 PM



Title: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on June 09, 2008, 11:03:37 PM
Some pics of Vintage Team Racers I took a couple of weeks ago when I went to the HUNTER region south of here to the annual MUSWELLBROOK weekend.
All types of models are flown, but this time very little FF as it was very windy.

The PLUTO class A racers are mine with a real Oliver in the red one, and a very well tuned and fast CS Ollie in the blue one. Never got to fly them---far too windy, but fired up the engines-----seems I made the most noise. LOL.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: GrahamC on June 10, 2008, 08:20:00 PM
Cool, thanks for sharing.

I have always liked the look of the vintage team racers. There is no control line racing let alone sport control line around the area I live but I do dabble from time to time and most of my sport control line fliers tend to have the look of the vintage team racers.

cheers, Graham


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: greggles47 on June 13, 2008, 09:25:34 PM
Graham,

I have a bit of a collection of 1/2A VTR models in digital form. If you are interested in any let me know & I'll email them to you. Then it's a simple matter to blow them up to actual size.

They would also make pretty good sport models. With a 1.5 diesel you wouldn't need a muffler in most places. You could also use them as trainiers as generally their flying characteristics are just lovely. You would only need to slow it down a bit for beginners.

Regards

Greg


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: GrahamC on June 16, 2008, 09:58:56 AM
Hey Greg,

Thanks for the offer. Yes please - [email protected]

I figure if I fly some control line stuff often enough I might just someone else interested in having a go especially if I have simple trainer on hand and can get them flying in short order.

cheers, Graham in Ottawa Canada


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: greggles47 on June 17, 2008, 08:01:30 PM
Graham,

I've sent the Wharfedale to you but unfortunately my email a/c has just dropped its bundle yet again!!

I'll keep on till I've given you a bunch. Hope I can get them through tonight.

regards

Greg


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: Mike Taylor on June 18, 2008, 01:08:37 AM
It might be nice to place these in the 'Builder's Plan Gallery'...


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: GrahamC on June 18, 2008, 08:20:11 PM
Graham,

I've sent the Wharfedale to you but unfortunately my email a/c has just dropped its bundle yet again!!

I'll keep on till I've given you a bunch. Hope I can get them through tonight.

hey Greg,

I think I got them all. I have been able to receive email just fine but I think my ISP has upgraded something and now I get an error when I try to send email. I guess I will have to try and sort that out and it looks pretty simple - upgrade my very old email program.

Now that I have all these neat plans I will have to print them out and see which one speaks to me and build at least one.

cheers, Graham


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on December 18, 2008, 07:23:46 PM
Here are the two old Class B racers I have. They were both built mid 90s of last century when I got a bit keen on it for a while.

The red one is a SORCERER from a 1953 AEROMODELLER magazine and has a replica CS McCoy rear rotor 29 in it. Built to the plan including the wing that comes off.
I have been told these engines are/were not very good, but when I got this one I pulled it all apart to clean it up inside with my Dremel, including raising the exhaust a little, and knocking out 1/2 the vertical posts.....timing was very mild. Washed it out well and ran it in in the model.
Only ever did one race with it in the late '90s that we won.....(just a local CL club event), and it one flicked started on the two heats and the final, and ran hard on a 25% nitro mix. 25% castor and 50% methanol total. From memory 42? laps.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on December 18, 2008, 07:36:04 PM
The other old Class B racer I have is PRONTO with an OS29 plain bearing in it built in the late 90s.
Pronto was designed in 1956 by a close friend the late Adrian Bellamy.
Dennis Whitely built it and pitted it with Adrian flying it at our 1956/1957 Australian Nationals.... they won hands down and set a new record for the class at the time using an OS29.
I did see Dennis close to 20 years ago when I lived in Melbourne and he still has the original model and engine.
The model has an asymmetric wing as a stunt model does, and when mine was flown it often came in on the lines under take off and landing, hence the extra weight and tab on the right hand wing.
It's never flown 'in anger'. The motor in fact is still very tight.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: applehoney on December 19, 2008, 04:23:31 PM
Interesting to see the 'Sorcerer' again. Used to race against Norman's original model back in the 50's, as well as the 'Sorcerer's Apprentice' in Class A ... though that was a different design, not a scaled-down version.

Pete Wright's 'Wrangler' was another good opponent


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on December 19, 2008, 06:37:56 PM
I've never built or flown a team racer - bar the Mini-Goodyear racers I flew for fun. I have always liked the look and names of these models though.
A friend has lent me 'Aircraft Speed and Vintage Team Racing' by Gordon Rae - great book, full of 3 views.
I have enjoyed looking up some of the great models that you have posted here!

Link for the book if you haven't seen it:
https://shop.traplet.com/product.aspx?c=11 (https://shop.traplet.com/product.aspx?c=11)


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on December 19, 2008, 08:48:29 PM
Well tell us more please Jim......what were you flying or pitting?

The A Sorcerer is a bit of an ugly IMHO.....have the plan in the old mag. along with Jaberwocky. Both interesting.....but?
I do like Wrangler very much though, but have never had a plan. I saw one 3 or 4 years ago with a Dooling29 in it. Was not flying at the time, and the owner said the plan was in a U.S. magazine.

I can remember reading some years ago about the Gordon Rae book that a lot of the information was very 'one sided'.  Rae from memory got a big serve.
I do like his Riveter though.... but have never seen one... or the book that I would like to take a look at one day.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: applehoney on December 20, 2008, 02:55:44 PM
Quote
what were you flying or pitting?

Mostly pitting. I built 'A' and 'B' racers for Elfin 2.59 and McCoy.19RR but both were shortlived.

Earliest was pitting for Don Walker (Enfield) - polished black airplane with ST.15 Jubilee - a novelty for diesel-dominated Class A. Did well, fast but lost out on lappage. Checked a couple years ago but he doesn't still have the engine, sadly. Don then turned to 'B' with the first versions of his line of elegant racers that did so well, eventually winning the Nats 'Davies Trophy' in later years and I pitted for those, also for Class A for Rob Dudley - Enfield. This back in days of 3-man teams; dropped out when 2-man became the norm. Racing interfered too much with F/F activities for me.

The Jubilee model was in the early racing days when things were simple. We could walk down the runway at Fairlop, meet another person with a racer, unroll the lines and fly together for a while just for the fun of it .. then move off and find another to do it over with again... Good times, long past.... :(


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: whipandflick on September 28, 2011, 03:33:21 AM
I have all the Vintage 1/2A Team Race plans on A3 which I redrew to meet current BMFA / VTRSIG rules. I have email Forum Admin asking where to send these (hard copy) drawings for someone to kindly upload them onto the Plans Gallery.(I notice that some of my drawings are already posted).

I will also include the Phfft, Nike, and several other class A drawings that I have re-drawn.

With regards to Class B, I think that Gordon Rae in his book has more than covered this area of designs

Roger M Reese


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on September 28, 2011, 01:30:03 PM
I have all the Vintage 1/2A Team Race plans on A3 which I redrew to meet current BMFA / VTRSIG rules. ...
---
I will also include the Phfft, Nike, and several other class A drawings that I have re-drawn.
Getting those preserved would be great!

Your plans are on paper only, not made on a computer?

You'd need a scanner that can take the paper size. In a pinch, getting the plan scanned in a couple of parts may do but that means more correcting afterwards, on the computer. If you don't have access to a good scanner, print shops can probably help but they don't do it for free.

You seem to be in UK, so might find helping hands at the Barton MFC forum: http://controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/portal.php . Their forum has participants all over the world and some of them visit Hip Pocket Aeronautics and other sites that collect plans too.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: PeeTee on September 28, 2011, 01:45:16 PM
Perttime

Roger Reese is the doyen of VTR - certainly 1/2A in Britain, and his re-dran plans have been published in a number of magazines (well at least Model Flyer from memory). It was the MF plan that caused me to dip my hand into my pocket and buy a CS repro Tiger Cub. Sadly FF pursuits have diverted me from going further, but there may come a time....especially if my ex-Goodyear flying chum gets to talk to me ;)

Peter


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on September 28, 2011, 04:02:26 PM
Roger Reese is the doyen of VTR - certainly 1/2A in Britain, and his re-dran plans have been published in a number of magazines
Ahh, I though Roger Reese might be "a somebody" having produced all those plans. I didn't recognize the name as I'm not really in those circles.

Anyway, I hope that a way to keep those plans alive is worked out. I'm afraid I cannot be much help, except if posting existing PDF files is all that is needed.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: C/L Gee Bee on October 18, 2011, 07:44:40 PM
Hello, fellow Team Racers!
Mike Lauerman here, Central Valley, California. (USA)
A mate from Down Under introed me to this great site, so much to read and see!

I read this thread, and was pleasantly surprised to learn there are still some B-Team Racer plans to be had.
I have a few, with a couple under way. (my mate Rob from O-Z sent me a much-used plan I had searched for endlessly: The Galaxy.
Other friend John Hollowell sent me one of "The Joker", with the news that it was actually modified from the original Galaxy plan.
London's Tom Jolley helped me with a Merco .29, which will 'authenticate' a Brit design, the 'Double Dice'.

Always looking for other plans, specifically a little-known one, "The Tempest".
Thanks for so many interesting posts & pics, I'll be on here now that I'm retired and building!

Mike in Atwater


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on October 18, 2011, 10:10:36 PM
Ah yes, real class B Team Racers.    Be very afraid of Hallowell though.   He'll lead you astray.   His go far too fast.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: whipandflick on October 19, 2011, 05:56:03 AM
Well the plans (1/2A and some A) are with administration. Hoping they will be 'put' in the "Builders Plan Gallery soon. All the drawings are VTRSIG approved (UK that is)
I have also included the Ballistic and if anyone wants the profile Humpty Go Kart I also have the original drawing. With regards to Vintage Class B, my advice is to buy Gordon Rae's superb book (printed and marketed by Traplet) it has all the 'outline' drawings of almost all the published and kitted designs up to 1957 (when racers looked like planes). If contacted I understand he will copy and post a 'real size' drawing.

RMR


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on October 19, 2011, 12:43:05 PM
Yesssss  :D

the plans are appearing in the gallery. There's a few nice ones I'd never heard about. Now I'm going for a better look...  ;D


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: Daithi on October 19, 2011, 12:48:30 PM
Hmmm 1/2 A - I really should get a new needle valve assembly and a prop driver collet for my old ED Fury


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on October 20, 2011, 06:51:30 AM
Well the plans (1/2A and some A) are with administration. Hoping they will be 'put' in the "Builders Plan Gallery soon....
...

RMR
I count 13 plans now.

Is it OK to post your plans on other sites where there's interest in designs from those days?

My thinking is that storage in multiple locations makes catastrophic losses less likely.

Pertti M


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: whipandflick on October 21, 2011, 11:19:28 AM
I am in the process of sorting more approved designs for Classes 1/2A, A and B. Many were submitted whilst I was Secretary of the Vintage Team Race Special Interest Group and have been kept 'on file' In some instances these drawings were the original designers plans and are signed, providing authenticity.

As there are few Class B models shown in the gallery, I shall start be sorting my copies and will be sending them to the 'administrator' for 'uploading' on the gallery.

Double Dice
Blue Star
Firebrand
Panko 13

With regards to forwarding my drawings to 'others' I would take it as a compliment, if you were to make them more widely available.

RMR


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on October 21, 2011, 01:19:33 PM
....
With regards to forwarding my drawings to 'others' I would take it as a compliment, if you were to make them more widely available.

RMR
I think I'll do just that :)

I will start with what is posted so far and post them at rcgroups.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on October 28, 2011, 06:39:07 PM
I just stumbled upon a Spanish forum thread on old team racers.
http://www.rcmodelistas.es/foro/aviones-vuelo-circular-f51/anos-dorados-carreras-t1044.html

If you are interested enough to view this thread, you should really take a look at that one...

Two samples:


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on October 28, 2011, 07:39:23 PM
A very good "stumbe" Perttime.    Some lovely old racers there.  And those old ones have so much class.   :)


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on October 30, 2011, 09:34:57 AM
The Roger Reese plans that I posted in the rcgroups "Vintage & Old-Timer Plans" thread have been viewed a lot. Of course that is no guarantee that anyone will build anything. That thread is huge, and the best way to find anything there is probably through http://www.outerzone.co.uk/vinplandex/index.asp .

I just started a "Control Line Team Racer plans and pictures" thread in the C/L section of rcgroups. So far, the collection there consists of Roger Reese plans, a few other plans, and some photos I've found elsewhere. I'll post material at least from 60s and 70s there too. (Why there? Because I can mix large files and text there quite well.)


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on November 04, 2011, 01:45:40 PM
I've been pestering people on a Finnish forum for pictures and information on what people here have done in Team Racing. I have some "results", although these are not really old enough to call "Vintage".

- two racers in my town, before I was born: on the left Oliver Tiger 2,5 cc, on the right K&B Torpedo .29 power
- picture from 1978
- B Class, with rear induction/side exhaust Super Tigre 29
- B Class 2006, MVVS with mini pipe.
- Dalesman built by Pentti Nore, in late 50s early 60s
- Karbunkle IX (by Nore) Helsinki 1968

The last two are from 1971 "Criterium of Europe" winner Pentti Nore.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: wreckbender on November 04, 2011, 06:29:00 PM
I like the last black and white picture, nice mood in that, and a beautiful looking aeroplane.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on November 05, 2011, 05:43:42 AM
I like the last black and white picture, nice mood in that, and a beautiful looking aeroplane.
Totally agree!

I have a faint recollection that the library here might have a modeling book with a tiny drawing of that model, or something much like it...

I've mentioned, that I'm posting TR material elsewhere. Here's the link: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1530258
I don't really want to flood Hippocket with that amount of files. The plans I've posted there are in the gallery here too.

Here's a couple of 1965 photos from Ireland. The model is by Gerry Hands:


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: Vernon Hunt on November 05, 2011, 08:59:17 AM

   Perttime,

       I as a young man (1957) loved C/L racing. Your plans on this and other sites has got me very interested in building a racer. I have put a couple of designs on paper, and I purchased some supplies to begin building. I even found my original spinners, crutches, and control line accesories. So I thank you for researching and posting all the great stuff!!

   Vern Hunt     Modeller


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on November 05, 2011, 10:22:38 AM
Your plans on this and other sites has got me very interested in building a racer.
I'm not much of a builder myself, at the moment... To be clear, no plan or picture that I've posted is "mine": just things that others have made available. Right now I feel an urge to preserve that material.
.......................

Pentti Nore has just posted more of his F2C photos and some words, too. I'll translate.

"""""""""
Karbunkles came in different shapes and sizes, and with different engines (ETA, MVVS, Rossi, Nelson, Cipolla, Russians). The name remained the same: only the serial number changed. I built 29 of them from 1964 to 1991. They participated in races 122 times, including 49 wins. I am attaching photos of a few.

Aeromodeller originally published a drawing of a Karbunkle and only the name let me recognize it as my airplane. So, we made a drawing for the "Ilmailu" magazine and Aeromodeller put a version of that one on their pages.

"""""""""

A sample of the photos. "Not for commercial use by print publications, etc."


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: Daithi on November 05, 2011, 12:27:06 PM
I have absolutely no recollection of the '65 photo but that does look very much like a (lot) younger me (on the left wearing glasses)  :D

In 1965 the Irish Nats were held at Casement Airfield (Baldonnel) and some of the events were interrupted by a Fokker Dr1 coming in to land (they were filming the Blue Max at the time and all the aircraft were based there)


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on November 05, 2011, 01:42:18 PM
I have absolutely no recollection of the '65 photo but that does look very much like a (lot) younger me (on the left wearing glasses)  :D
...
Hey, it is good to see stories appearing around the pictures.

I got that picture from a "Classic FAI Newsletter" distributed at http://web.me.com/flyingkiw1/Classic_FAI_Teamrace_Site/Welcome.html

They got it in an email from Joe Devenish, now living in Brazil. Here's a small part of the message:

With the launch of your Classic Newsletter and the interest in great looking models from that era.....I came across this photo taken in Dublin in 1965.

I keep in touch with a few old team race friends from my early flying days. Gerry Hand (white shirt) is both the pilot and builder. It was a great model, Eta 15 powered with a superb finish - design influenced no doubt by the Soviet models at the '63 Criterium!

...
..."


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on November 06, 2011, 04:22:20 PM
Hey wreckbender, or other Swedes!

Browsing my files, I found screenshots of a good looking Swedish FAI rules team racer. I must have taken them from the Lina newsletter that used to be available online. The design is called "Jaså" and must be from the 1950s. I think it is designed by Nils Björk who was the pilot for Kjell Rosenlund (Miss FAI, European Champions in 1961)

The plan shows a built up wing but mentions that a wing out of 10mm sheet would be easier to build. Then, a non-symmetrical airfoil should be used (flat bottom or semi-symmetrical?). The plan parts that I have are missing half a wing (not really a problem). Correct scaling could be worked out from span and length numbers.

Does anyone know more about this one?


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: JohnOSullivan on November 08, 2011, 08:01:44 PM
I have absolutely no recollection of the '65 photo but that does look very much like a (lot) younger me (on the left wearing glasses)  :D

In 1965 the Irish Nats were held at Casement Airfield (Baldonnel) and some of the events were interrupted by a Fokker Dr1 coming in to land (they were filming the Blue Max at the time and all the aircraft were based there)

 
I flew in the 1965 Nationals in Baldonnel and recall that Fokker coming in to land. It had been flown from France and on the way had encountered rain which streaked the paint scheme. In the hanger, the guys were building a Pfalz D7 and a Fokker DVII and were finishing them. The lozenge camoflague (sp?) patterns were drawn in pencil and individual colours were numbered on the aircraft and the painters were painting by number. I lucked out and was given a gallon of clear dope by one of the "artists". There were three Tiger Moths with German WWI markings flying also. I had photos of all these aircraft, but lost them in a house fire 7 years ago.  Also lost a picture of my then girlfriend with Peter Bedell's stunt model.
 The full size aircraft were there as part of the filming of that great classic the "Blue Max".
 I still have some C/L shots of that meet and the photo Perttime posted is one of mine of Con Carroll pitting Gerry Hand's model.
If you were around then Oisin, it is likely that I know you - who are you?- Don't be shy!


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: JohnOSullivan on November 08, 2011, 08:05:56 PM
I have absolutely no recollection of the '65 photo but that does look very much like a (lot) younger me (on the left wearing glasses)  :D

In 1965 the Irish Nats were held at Casement Airfield (Baldonnel) and some of the events were interrupted by a Fokker Dr1 coming in to land (they were filming the Blue Max at the time and all the aircraft were based there)

In that photo, the guy on the left wearing glasses is Paul Brennan and the guy on the right at the back is Peter Bedell. Peter and Paul were the top Irish TR team of that era.
John


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: Daithi on November 09, 2011, 09:33:10 AM
Well he's a ringer for me :lol:

Dave Boyd (Belfast MFC) - I had a tiny Sopwith Triplane at that Nats (or was it the all white PR Spit that I had managed to nick the fuel tubing in and couldn't get the engine to run?)

You forgot to mention the Rapide with the camouflaged outboard wings and if I recall a Caudron Luciole ;) Also the SE5 that the painter had gone crazy on and started lozenge camouflaging that too :D

I ended up chatting in German with a couple of the 'Technical Advisers' (a pair of Luftstreitkrafte veterans) and did ask them why the Pattee Crosses on the D VII - they just looked at me and said something like "Don't blame us - we DID tell them it should have been a Greek Cross but they just ignored us"

beir buadh 's beannacht - Daithi


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: wreckbender on November 09, 2011, 03:36:21 PM
Hey wreckbender, or other Swedes!

Browsing my files, I found screenshots of a good looking Swedish FAI rules team racer. I must have taken them from the Lina newsletter that used to be available online. The design is called "Jaså" and must be from the 1950s. I think it is designed by Nils Björk who was the pilot for Kjell Rosenlund (Miss FAI, European Champions in 1961)

The plan shows a built up wing but mentions that a wing out of 10mm sheet would be easier to build. Then, a non-symmetrical airfoil should be used (flat bottom or semi-symmetrical?). The plan parts that I have are missing half a wing (not really a problem). Correct scaling could be worked out from span and length numbers.

Does anyone know more about this one?
Sorry, Perttime, I´m not so familiar with T/R planes, I´m sort of a stunt guy :) always been (Kungsbacka, Alf Eskilsson). But I will check with other people, when I can.
 Best. Michael Palm


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: whipandflick on November 11, 2011, 06:52:53 AM
I do like the plan JASA recently posted.

However, I am not able to see any date on the plan nor scale. I see it is powered by an Oliver, so determining dimensions should not be too difficult.

Keep them coming !


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: Daithi on November 11, 2011, 08:15:13 AM
Down the the bottom right is a box with stuff in Swedish but it says
span 70 cm
length 39cm


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: whipandflick on November 11, 2011, 08:34:27 AM
At 700mm span, is it a Class B model ? Can anyone shed any light on the date the model was made the motor used? A date for the plan?


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on November 11, 2011, 08:38:14 AM
I do like the plan JASA recently posted.

However, I am not able to see any date on the plan nor scale. I see it is powered by an Oliver, so determining dimensions should not be too difficult.
It says it is designed for FAI rules and the pictured engine is Oliver Tiger Mk III. I have understood Mk III came pretty late in the 50s. The built up wing makes me think it cannot be too "recent": people should have got smart enough to build solid wings. Just guessing.

It does give the dimensions but the software I have is not very good for getting things sized precisely. Or, I haven't figured out how...


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: whipandflick on November 11, 2011, 08:52:37 AM
If it is to FAI it is most probably outside the cut off date of December 1957 to qualify for UK Vintage Class B. It does, however qualify for Barton Classic, but any design including 'own' is allowed. Check Barton Model Flying Club for further information.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: Daithi on November 11, 2011, 05:14:20 PM
FAI (F2C) rules don't specify span - they specify area but at 6.3 dM2 it's half of the requirement and the tank is also probably too large for the modern rules
 
   a)    Maximum swept volume of motor(s) : 2,5 cm3
The maximum exhaust outlet area is 60 mm2 at the cylinder liner projected exhaust outlet or crankcase exhaust outlet. If a silencer is used the measurement is taken at the exhaust outlet of the silencer. The piston face at the exhaust outlet shall not be visible from the exterior of the model aircraft when side or front exhaust engines are used.
     b)    Minimum total projected surface area (St) : 12 dm2
     c)    Total maximum weight : 500g
     d)      Minimum dimensions of the fuselage at the pilot's location: height: 100 mm; width: 50 mm; cross-sectional area: 39 cm2 - (wing fillets shall not be included in the fuselage cross-sectional area).
     e)    The model aircraft must carry a scale pilot head with minimum dimensions: height: 20 mm; length: 14 mm; width: 14 mm.
     f)    Minimum diameter of the wheel(s): 25 mm. The use of metal wheels is forbidden.
     g)    Maximum fuel permitted: 7 cm3. Only one tank is allowed, to contain fuel and oil for lubrication.
     h)    The model aircraft must fly in the anti-clockwise direction.
     i)    The motor(s) must be entirely enclosed including the cylinder head and the body of the carburettor (except the opening of the induction throat). The fairing or additional extensions to the motor shall be permitted to be exposed as long as they conform to the natural shape of the fuselage and do not mar the semi-scale appearance of the model aircraft. The only parts permitted to protrude from the fuselage are those to be manipulated during the operations of starting the motor, regulating the mixture, plugs, advance control, compression control, needle valves, tank fillers, etc. If a silencer is used, it may be fixed outside the fuselage.
     j)    Openings for the entry and exit of air, exhaust, etc. may be provided for proper functioning of the motor(s).
     k)    A cockpit or cabin with transparent windshield giving direct visibility forward must be provided to house the scale model aircraft pilot head which shall be clearly and fully visible.
     l)    The landing gear must be arranged to permit normal take-of and landing. It may be retractable during flight but must return to its extended position before landing.
     m)    The model aircraft must remain in a correct state according to 4.3.4 (a) - (n) throughout the full race, otherwise it will be disqualified.
     n)    Fuel tank, tubing and any associated filling valves or shut-off units must be accessible and capable of being measured accurately in order to check the total capacity as a unit. If the organisers do not consider the system to be accessible or accurately measurable, then the team will be disqualified.
     o)    The model aircraft must be equipped with an effective engine-stopping device for enabling the pilot to terminate the engine run before the fuel tank is completely empty.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on November 12, 2011, 04:33:30 AM
FAI rules have not been quite constant over the years. At least they started with 10cc tanks. According to a December 1956 Aeromodeller article on the "Time Traveller", the larger area FAI spec models were winning against British SMAE spec airplanes, using SMAE line and tank dimensions.

edit...

AHA!

""""""""
The very first International Control Line contest to include team racing was the 1954 meeting held August 20 at the Hague, Netherlands --- indoors!

The British T/R team had to compete to the provisional rules established by the FLA, which were quite different from the SMAE rules and much more like the current FAI specification. They called for 125 sq. in. wing area (8.0 sq. dm.), a 10cc tank and 120 laps, equal to 10 km as a length for all races.
...
...
1958 introduced the present total area rule (186 sq.in, 12 sq.dm.)

""""""""
http://www.go-cl.se/trh/trh_ps-1.html

The Jaså drawing says 8.0 dm2 total area. That suggests the design was done before 1958.



Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: whipandflick on November 14, 2011, 04:15:48 AM
Very interesting reading. Was surprised to see Dick Edmonds fuel formula=

Paraffin     45%
Ether        35%
Castor      20%
IPN            3%

Think that makes 103% ?

There again John Oliver always suggested

Paraffin    50%
Ether       30%
Castor     20%
IPN           2%

Any more suggestions ?


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: Tapio Linkosalo on November 14, 2011, 06:43:03 AM
It sez:
Quote
Paraffin     45%
Ether        35%
Castor      20%
... to which 3% IPN  is added.

So it is 0.97*45% paraffin, 0.97*35% ether and 0.97*20% castor, but those figures would be more ugly to present...


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: whipandflick on November 14, 2011, 06:55:51 AM
Yes I agree. I always ran my Olivers (Tiger and Cub) on 20% Castor (1st Pressing) whilst other were using synthetic. I suspect that as low as 7 -10% was being used, but old cast iron piston and liners whether hard chromed or not would not survive a real 'lean' run.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: JohnOSullivan on November 15, 2011, 06:31:09 PM
Well he's a ringer for me :lol:

Dave Boyd (Belfast MFC) - I had a tiny Sopwith Triplane at that Nats (or was it the all white PR Spit that I had managed to nick the fuel tubing in and couldn't get the engine to run?)

You forgot to mention the Rapide with the camouflaged outboard wings and if I recall a Caudron Luciole ;) Also the SE5 that the painter had gone crazy on and started lozenge camouflaging that too :D

I ended up chatting in German with a couple of the 'Technical Advisers' (a pair of Luftstreitkrafte veterans) and did ask them why the Pattee Crosses on the D VII - they just looked at me and said something like "Don't blame us - we DID tell them it should have been a Greek Cross but they just ignored us"

beir buadh 's beannacht - Daithi

As it happens, I just came across the MACI newsletter from August 1965. You are listed as flying a Spitfire in the Scale Nationals.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: whipandflick on November 16, 2011, 02:43:36 AM
No - not me !

I competed in Vintage Team Racing and flew competitively in Class 1/2A, A and B. I was more successful flying Class B and made the UK National Finals twice with pitmen Phil Durkin and later with Denis Ward.

My main concern was revitalising the Class 1/2A and after the PAW 09 TBR was allowed as an acceptable motor in this class, I lost interest and started to draw the models to the current VTRSIG (Vintage Team Race Special Interest Group) rules and criteria. This included Class B models but to approximately 66% size.

With the help of Dick Hart I edited the Vintage Team Race News which was posted through out most of the Vintage Team Race fraternity. (I will be sending copy to the administrator for him to assess whether or not he wishes to copy and include data in the plan gallery).

Never flown scale other than my very stand off scale Vintage 1/2A model of the P40, plans included in the 'Builders Plan Gallery' and also covered as a plan feature in Model Flyer magazine article and plan - January 2001.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on November 16, 2011, 03:16:00 AM
I have downloaded five issues of Vintage T/R News on my computer, from http://mariofer.free.fr/VTRNEWS/ . Some of the files are larger than the Plans Gallery usually accepts. Otherwise, there shouldn't be a problem with putting them either with Racer plans or in the Written Articles section of the Gallery.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: whipandflick on November 16, 2011, 04:14:23 AM
The very early VTR News Letters were A4 folded (one maybe two pages) and had a very limited circulation. The last few were produced to a very high standard, colour with very professional layout (courtesy of Dick Hart. He of C/L Pulse Jet vintage speed fame)

I believe I am alone in having each and every one of the issues. Dick has the last few as adobe files. Will have to ask him to send them direct?


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: Daithi on November 16, 2011, 09:16:46 AM

As it happens, I just came across the MACI newsletter from August 1965. You are listed as flying a Spitfire in the Scale Nationals.

Entered maybe but not flown - when I fitted the top cowling block I managed to nick the fuel tubing and it's first flight was at the Nats - end result was we couldn't get the engine to run. It may have been the Leinster champs when I had the Sopwith (I remember the German guys wanting to play with it)

There's a faint bell ringing in the back of my mind - are you the one whose grandfather was on the other side in '16? (RFC) :D


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: JohnOSullivan on November 23, 2011, 05:16:16 PM

There's a faint bell ringing in the back of my mind - are you the one whose grandfather was on the other side in '16? (RFC) :D

No, all our crowd kept well away from conflicts.
You may be thinking of Johnnie Carroll, whose father flew SE5a in WWI.

John


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: perttime on November 26, 2011, 04:35:13 AM
One of the recent additions to the racer Plans Gallery had caught my attention before: VTRSIG 1/2A "JR's 6.5". I'm not sure if it is the design or the skilful builder, but somehow it manages to look so "muscular" for a small aircraft.

Here's a photo I must have found browsing the Barton Club forums:


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: whipandflick on November 29, 2011, 04:26:28 AM
The model above was conceived by John Ridley and is the reduce Walker / Tuthill No 13, hence J.R's 6.5. It was drawn at approximately 66% reduction to Vintage Class 1/2A criteria.

John still flies vintage team race with John Gibbs and Julio Isidro. He is and excellent builder and pitman. John is responsible for researching many old (pre 1957) designs which are now regularly used in team race circles (pun intended).



Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on July 18, 2016, 05:02:22 AM
SORCERER has had a refurbish by Yeppoon Fredo ready for Class B Team Race at Rocky Rally in September.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: old4570 on August 02, 2016, 09:55:09 PM
Regarding fuel ...

More kerosene , should give you more range ..
More either , better starting ...
Ignition improver  - What works for you ..

Oil ( Castor ) Is heavy .. and slows an engine down ...
I did an experiment a long time ago where I started with 30% castor and worked my way to 20% checking RPM ..
Yep .. Less oil = more RPM or power if you will ..

One way to cheat is to use synthetic oil , its lighter so should give more precious RPM ..
The other trick is to equip your model with a cut off ..
Use it to tune your motor , then disable for the race .. ( no cut offs in Vintage ) 


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on August 02, 2016, 10:35:47 PM
A good mix for diesels is 50% kero, 30% ether, 20% castor, then add 2% DII.

For just general flying 1/3 of each is fine.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: old4570 on August 02, 2016, 10:59:26 PM
yeah .. 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 ...

was good in the day when people had no access to measuring tools or ignition improver ..
Also when most flew FF and used larger propellers ( Larger prop = less compression to get a tune )

  Fuel formulas are ?? 

   The most critical component is the either , and generally 30% to 35% is the norm ( anywhere )
As for oil , it would depend very much on the engine ..
If you have a rare valuable antique engine that is made from questionable material then 30% oil would be a very good idea ..
For most sport engines , and this includes Supertigres , olivers , PAW and such , 25% castor is a great idea for general sport flying ..
I had several G15 diesel engines , and they were hard to tune on 20% castor .. A real PITA ...
So one day I thought , ok .. I will jack the oil to 25% and see what happens ..  My G15 Diesels ran like swiss watches ...
The G20 Diesels seem more tolerant towards 20% castor , same with Rossi Diesels .. 
But if you want them to last , 25% is not going to kill them , in fact they may live much much longer ..  ( If you care about that )
I cant remember any more what 5% Castor was worth ( RPM ) it may have been 500 to 1000 RPM

Ignition improver ...

Just depends where in the world you are and what you are permitted to use ?
Stuff from Henry Nelson , generally 1.5% , and I went as high as 2%
Amyl Nitrate , from say 2% to 4% Depending on engine and application ( If you can get your hands on it )
And as for the rest ??? Use enough to make a difference ..
If you cant get ignition improver , just run a larger prop ...

1.5cc , they ran 8x4 without ignition improver and 9x4 for FF
2.5cc , you may want to run about 9x4 , anything less than 8x4 will really hammer the engine ...

Either ---

Already mentioned 30 to 35% ( it does not matter that much ) But for racing you may want more kerosene for range ..
I remember trying 25% either with about 2% Dii ( nelson stuff ) to increase range , and the engine became a little tricky to start ..
30% Either seemed to be about the minimum for reliable starting ( Warm engine )
Some engines on 30% can be a real PITA to start when cold .. So 35% could be the go if this is the case for you .. 

Kero , whats left is the Kero content ..

Use the oil you need , ignition improver as needed , either as needed , and whats left is Kero content .. 
 


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on August 06, 2016, 07:58:01 PM
Ready to race again in September.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: greggles47 on August 16, 2016, 10:31:17 AM
A good mix for diesels is 50% kero, 30% ether, 20% castor, then add 2% DII.

For just general flying 1/3 of each is fine.


The famous "Olly Brew". The starting point for many Vintage A racers.

When I was racing them, the DII would be changed according to atmospheric conditions. As little as .1% had a noticable affect.














5


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on August 16, 2016, 05:47:44 PM
Yeppoon Fredo's Footprint just finished with brand spanking new Oliver Tiger just arrived from the UK.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: OZPAF on August 16, 2016, 06:08:53 PM
Nice models Gossie. Good luck with your Sorcerer.
I ran 40% Ether, 30% oil, 30% Kero many years ago in an old Mk 1 Bee. An old Skyhawk member gave me the formula.
It's still in running condition - 50yrs later - no repairs.
John


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: greggles47 on August 20, 2016, 06:02:16 AM
Today I had a fly of a Vin B bound for Rocky.

Not blistering quick, but fun to fly a B model again, even if not in anger.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: OZPAF on August 21, 2016, 08:45:38 PM
Sounds like fun.
John


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on August 22, 2016, 12:08:01 AM
Today I had a fly of a Vin B bound for Rocky.

Not blistering quick, but fun to fly a B model again, even if not in anger.

Do tell Greggles.........Model, engine and who's going to Rocky, but only if you wish on the last one.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: greggles47 on August 23, 2016, 07:05:37 AM
Enya 29 powered Starbomb. Loverly upright engine, flies great.
Was running on stunt fuel, so on a race brew and without the muffler could get up and boogie.

Don Keysecker is the owner builder making the long haul to Rocky.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on August 23, 2016, 05:42:40 PM
Enya 29 powered Starbomb. Loverly upright engine, flies great.
Was running on stunt fuel, so on a race brew and without the muffler could get up and boogie.

Don Keysecker is the owner builder making the long haul to Rocky.

I believe there is another Starbomb at Rocky, so NSW will not be alone.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: greggles47 on October 05, 2016, 01:20:14 AM
Enya 29 powered Starbomb. Loverly upright engine, flies great.
Was running on stunt fuel, so on a race brew and without the muffler could get up and boogie.

Don Keysecker is the owner builder making the long haul to Rocky.

Don came back with the very good news that he won the Rocky Rally.

Last man standing apparently. Good news anyway.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: gossie on October 05, 2016, 04:33:42 AM
They won because they were prepared and knew what they were doing.    Well done to them.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: Ployd on October 08, 2016, 01:24:34 AM
Tada, the winning team. Don (owner/pilot, centre), Reg Towell (refueler/engine starter, right and Peter Lloyd (plug driver/model release). The only serious contender did one too many "touch and goes" resulting in an OS25 FXS doing a "shaft run"...much blue smoke!

For me, 4900Km round trip to participate.

Ployd in OZ


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: old4570 on January 17, 2017, 09:06:20 PM
Dii ,

 Yeah , I tried running 1.4 , 1.5 and I found it not to my liking at all ..
In fact I found tune ability to improve greatly once I hit 1.7% , and 1.7% became my standard Dii amount for all my fuels / engines ..
The highest I ever went was maybe 2.4% Dii , hmmmm . Interesting things happen north of 2% Dii  ( Very interesting )

 So depending on the weather , I would run 1.7% or 1.8%  Nelson Dii  ..
And for some reason , my genuine olive tigers really liked 2% Dii or even more .. 
We do what we do because it works for us , it does not matter what works for some one else . ( As long as what you are doing works for you )
If what you are doing is not working , then the obvious conclusion is your doing something wrong !

 I am simply amazed how many times I have been on the flying field and people just dont seem to grasp this simple concept .

Story time :

 Was some time in the late 80's and I had just arrived at the Moorabbin Field .
I sat in the car for a few minutes absorbing the atmosphere on the flying field ( It was good to watch people having fun ) .
When my eye spotted a group of people trying to start an engine ..

 I was intrigued as the engine did not want to start ( apparently ) ,
I walked over and watches as half a dozen people were trying to start a taipan diesel ..
After watching a while I mentioned that they should back off the compression ( engine was popping like it was over compressed )
Well , I wont go into detail ..  But after a minute or so I was offered the opportunity to start the engine ..
I turned the prop over and could feel the contra piston  ..............  Eeeeek ! 

 I turned the compression screw back 2 or 3 turns and gave the engine a flick to back the contra off ..
A few flicks more and the engine was running ... 
 I could actually hear the over compression as ???? was trying to start the engine .. And they just kept increasing the compression when they should have backed it off . ( Was a experienced modeler )

 So ends the tale .. 

 


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: Fourfingers on January 18, 2017, 07:57:27 AM
Talking of ignition improver ......
My newish MARZ 2.5 seemsto prefer 0% improver .... its a revver, alright, on fuel with additive - but on straight Sports mix it went berserk!  Frightened me to  death.
Any theories why this is, you bright guys out there?  Maybe in USSR when this moter was built, ignition improver was hard to come by?  Certainly some strange brews must have been used.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: old4570 on January 20, 2017, 08:09:19 AM
Interesting ...

 Dii is generally used ( Needed ) to lower compression ( stop pre - ignition ) on smaller racing props .. 
I usually found engines running on small props and no ignition improver ran very hard ..

 The Mars if memory serves is a 360 deg Port engine much like an ED Racer ( I had one 20 years ago but never ran it ) , and does not rev out as hard as a G20 per say ... 

 If one may ask the fuel formula and propeller used ...
I could see where a 9x4 might run better without ignition improver  , 8x4 ( ??? ) , 7x?   ( That would be a surprise )
Did you tacho ? 


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: Fourfingers on January 20, 2017, 01:11:16 PM
Hi Old ...(cant really call you that!)
Prop APC 8x4 ... fuel southernModelCraft sport 30 % oil, with or without improver.  B****** slipped in the stand and took half my hand off.
Whats a tacho?  Sure we ate them in San Fran '68 .... no, dont have one, sorry.  My ears tell me it was screaming ...17k?
Just been to the Oliver auction at Charterhouse... wow.  Met the family, lovely people, signed my catalogue too.
Acquired a Cub Schnuerle - possibly the last but one made by the legends from Ferndown.  Will sound great in a duo with my Tom Ridley one.
If I may be permitted one observation: auctioneer didnt do them as well as he could have - whacked the lots thro' too quickly.  Perhaps, what do I know?
Quality is evident long after the price is forgotten as Mr Royce, I believe, once famously said.
Would you believe his car didnt make reserve?  Morons.  Buyers that is.
Two fingers
"How many engines do you need?"  Mrs C.


Title: Re: Vintage Team Racing
Post by: old4570 on January 20, 2017, 06:14:16 PM
Hmmmmm !

 Tacho / Taco !!!!  

 Tachometer =  Electronic device to measure RPM ..
 Taco = Mexican food , now eaten world wide .

 Regarding Tacho ...
 One of the very first accessories I ever purchased for modelling , can't go without a tacho
Though I have never in my 53 years had a taco ..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GT-POWER-Professional-Motor-RPM-Tachometer-RC-Heli-Aircraft-Aircrafts-/182361444853?hash=item2a7596d1f5:g:6G4AAOSwux5YLsIP

Currently I have one of these , modified to run 2 x AA ( I hate those button cells )