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Author Topic: FAC pnut rules  (Read 685 times)
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BG
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« on: December 13, 2011, 09:35:59 PM »

Hi All,
So I have some questions re FAC pnut rules and rules in general:
1. Does the 9 inch fuselage length apply in the FAC? If not this pretty much excludes a lot of interesting subjects.
2. Is the tissue covering only rule still in place or are they allowing plastic coverings these days?

B
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2011, 11:53:59 PM »


1. Does the 9 inch fuselage length apply in the FAC? If not this pretty much excludes a lot of interesting subjects.


Also looking for confirmation on this as to whether it's "fuselage" length, fuselage + empenage, or overall length?  Same rules for both peanut & pistachio?

Thanks,
 Cool
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2011, 05:31:06 AM »

I must have misread it as I thought it was Max 13" wingspan or Max 9" overall length  Huh
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2011, 07:55:37 AM »

Hi All,
So I have some questions re FAC pnut rules and rules in general:
1. Does the 9 inch fuselage length apply in the FAC? If not this pretty much excludes a lot of interesting subjects.
2. Is the tissue covering only rule still in place or are they allowing plastic coverings these days?

B

You can read the actual FAC rules at http://flyingacesclub.com/
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BG
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2011, 03:22:54 PM »

Hi Al,
I have read the rules on the FAC site and they do not specify a fuselage length rule only a 13inch span rule. I guess this means that it has to be 13 inch span to be an FAC pnut but this seems like an odd position given that one of the fathers of the Pnut designed a few Pnuts to the 9 inch fuselage length rule and given that the 9 inch rule has been more or less universally accepted for over 20 years now.

On tissue I see it mentioned here and there but do not recall reading a rule that expressly forbids other materials across the board. In fact i only recall condenser paper and gampi being mentioned as forbidden for certain classes.

BG
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2011, 05:44:10 PM »

From the FAC rulebook posted on the link above:

Section 2 - Primary Rules All Events
paragraph L. - All models must be covered with Japanese tissue or equivalent. Condenser paper is prohibited as a covering material.

Section 3 - FAC Scale Events
paragraph C. - Scale-judged rubber powered events are classified by wing span as follows:
   1.   Peanut Scale shall not exceed 13 inches.

Even GHQ-Peanut limits wingspan to 13"

If I recall (remembering back 20 years?) the 9" fuselage limit is an AMA rule, not an FAC rule.  I can say, with confidence, that FAC did NOT had a 9 inch fuselage length  20 years ago.

The "good subjects" are not eliminated from competition in the FAC; they are just not permitted in the PEANUT category.  They would need to fly Scale, if the wingspan exceeded 13".

--george
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BG
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2011, 11:51:54 PM »

Thanks for clearing that up George...

Still wondering what Jap equivalents might include?? No plastic films of any kind I guess (bummer)  Huh

B
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2011, 06:49:04 AM »

What about tissue over mylar?  It's STILL tissue covered - just more weather proof.

Bernard: Japanese tissue or equiv. = Easy Built tissue, Hallmark, and if it means JAPANESE TISSUE, that would INCLUDE Gampi and Tengujo (unless specifically prohibited?  I remember seeing something about this somewhere.).
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2011, 08:32:24 AM »

I believe Gampi is OK in FAC. It's condenser paper that's shunned.

But even if Gampi was OK, why would you want to use it? It's very expensive, doesn't shrink as consistantly as Esaki, doesn't come in colors and on a peanut might save you .1g at most.

It's useless for outdoor as ultra-light is not desirable (unless you like your model fluttering in the wind like a leaf) and would only come into play for indoor FAC and then, only if you are already building world beater light structures. If not, you're better off building a lighter structure than trying to squeeze a milligram out of the covering.
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BG
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2011, 01:23:55 PM »

Hi All,
Gampi: never used it an not particularly interested. I am going with Tengu which has gentle shrinkage properties and is half the weight of Esaki. Here in very dry Alberta ESAKI continues to lose water for a long time after you finish your model. I have several older models that have warped beyond repair since we moved to Alberta. I am therefore very interested in covering materials that are not affected by the very dry conditions we have in winter.Plastic is a logical choice.

Also, I am of the opinion that light is right and try to get my OT endurance ships as well as scale models to be as light as I can manage. To this end I use the highest quality and lightest wood I can find (thanks Allen Cool) and also try to build/design my structures to maximize strength and durability while minimizing weight (this means that to me many designs appear over engineered). If I have gone to great lengths to build a light "clever" framework I also want to ensure that I use a well thought out approach to covering. Since covering adds about 10 to 20% of the final weight I see a lighter covering approach as potentially beneficial. For example: If I can build a 6-8 gram Lacey with plastic film covering it is going to standup to humidity changes, last longer and also perform far better than my old 15 gram Esaki covered Peck Poly Lacey. How can this be seen as a bad thing?

my 2 cents
b



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Alan Cohen
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2011, 04:58:09 PM »

Have you used this Tengu yet, Bernard? Is this that webby looking stuff that Hiromi sells like this...?

Esaki weighs about .85g/100"sq or 13.1g/m2. How much does Tengu weigh? I can't imagine it weighs half, or 6.5g/m2.
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2011, 05:39:01 PM »

Nope mine does not look like that....I do have some stuff like that though (with lower fibre count however) which is super light (3.5g/m2) but it would need to be used in conjunction with a film. I plan to dope it over indoor film so that it has something to adhere to and seal against. My hope is that the combo will result in a covering that is ultra light but also stiff.

My tengu (I have the 8.5g and 5.5g weights) is more like very fine white model span. It has a definite warp and weft. Here again my plan is to try it over an indoor film (I have done this successfully on a Senator using light silk) to see if I can achieve a light stiff covering. Will also experiment with it sans film to see the difference in weight etc.

B

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Alan Cohen
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2011, 06:09:39 PM »

I certainly don't want to discourage building light. It's what I love best about this hobby. And I have definately gone to great lengths to build light.

But let's say for an average peanut you have about 65"sq to cover both sides of the wing and another 35"sq for the fuse and tail. So about 100"sq covers the model. That means you have .85g total of Esaki. If Tengu is 8.5g/m2 then it's 35% lighter than Esaki. Based on .85g of Esaki for the model you would be saving .3g in total, or 3% weight savings on a 10g peanut. Add in the weight of the indoor covering and I don't see what you are gaining on such a small model.

In my world that is not enough to give up the wonderful properties of Esaki tissue. It's the structural rigidilty that you get when you attach Esaki to every rib and crosspiece that allows building as light as possible. It's the strength of the tissue that allows using really light wood. Covering that would shrink less would not offer as much of this enhanced structural stiffness I fear. Maybe I'm wrong. Keep us posted.
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2011, 06:21:39 PM »

About four years ago, Thom Greenhalge, the designer of the "Majestyk" P-30 series ( there are TWO), offered some 'OLD WORLD' JAP/ESAKI tissue for sale at the low price of 50 cents/sheet. I think this tissue originally came in 'tablet form'. I bought 50 (fifty) sheets. Shipping was $5. The stuff is beautiful. I may even use it on a Model one of these days Wink
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BG
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2011, 07:35:24 PM »

Allen for a pnut you are correct....fairly minimal amount of tissue so minimal amount of weight gained (though every bit counts). For Pnuts I am more concerned with the tendency of my Esaki to warp the framework over time. In Calgary where the air is super dry this has happened to several of my models (they were fine before they were moved to Calgary air). So The gentler shrinkage associated with Tengu might work better for me here(??).

However, what about using Tengu with Film on a gollywock? So I added up the square cm and I get about 4000 square cm of tissue on a golly. A square meter has 10,000 cm2 so at 13.1g/m2 a Golly needs 5.2 grams of tissue. Add glue and dope and you get another 5 grams or so (my models seem to weigh 10g more after covering plus dope). So with Tengu the glue plus dope will be the same but I would use only ~2.5g of tissue. But it might not be as resilient (though the film adds waterproofing and lube protection which are worthwhile benefits in themselves).

Result of this analysis: Use less/lighter glue for attaching tissue! and the Tengu only saves 2.5 g (not nothing but not a hell of a lot either).

more test to come!
B
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