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Author Topic: Dave Clarksons SLOP formula  (Read 4282 times)
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Sandgroper
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« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2012, 09:57:25 PM »

Lucky chap a Thursday comp wheres my passport,due to high winds we haven`t flown for months,the heat and flies I can manage but cant do anything about wind speed.


Phil

 
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gossie
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« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2012, 10:40:46 PM »

Lucky chap a Thursday comp wheres my passport,due to high winds we haven`t flown for months,the heat and flies I can manage but cant do anything about wind speed.


Phil

 

It's not much different either up here 'groper.......wind wind wind, and rain to go with it.  It's before Christmas since I went for a proper fly.
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Sandgroper
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« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2012, 11:36:06 PM »

Hi Dean,

yes the crank measures up at 5.5mm dia and 0.8mm pitch-although thats a near perfect match for UNEF 7/32-32 .
The head and backplate screws are 2.7mm dia and 0.6mm pitch,lucky the engine is new and everything is in good nick although I change over all the screws in my OS engines to hex heads if possible.Not a bad idea to convert to US type threads if needed-smaller toolkit

Phil
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Sandgroper
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« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2012, 11:50:07 PM »

Lucky chap a Thursday comp wheres my passport,due to high winds we haven`t flown for months,the heat and flies I can manage but cant do anything about wind speed.


Phil

 

It's not much different either up here 'groper.......wind wind wind, and rain to go with it.  It's before Christmas since I went for a proper fly.
l
 G`day Howard,my brother Trevor says hi,lets hope our bid for the controline WC`s is successful should be fun.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 12:05:20 AM by Sandgroper » Logged
gossie
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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2012, 12:31:07 AM »

Lucky chap a Thursday comp wheres my passport,due to high winds we haven`t flown for months,the heat and flies I can manage but cant do anything about wind speed.


Phil

 

It's not much different either up here 'groper.......wind wind wind, and rain to go with it.  It's before Christmas since I went for a proper fly.
l
 G`day Howard,my brother Trevor says hi,lets hope our bid for the controline WC`s is successful should be fun.

Ah Trevor.  Yep, I remember Trevor from the Nats a while back.   Say HI back from me please.  Good luck on the CL WC bid.
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flydean1
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« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2012, 09:23:19 AM »

Phil,

I realize I forgot to clarify the "lawn dart" term.  As I apply it, the model stops in a near vertical pitch attitude, then after a brief tail slide, pitches down plummeting earthward.  Usually a too-aft CG and not enough decalage.  When I built Free Flight models as a kid, I would never add weight anywhere, but would hand-glide and shim the stab for a good glide.  Well, due to poor building skills, they were invaribly tail heavy, resulting in too little difference in incidence between the wing and stab.  I also did not understand the dynamics of the spiral climb, therefore, no opposite direction roll.  All contributed to a non-existent transition and a looooong dive to the ground.  They would usually recover, but once the phugoid oscillations stopped, they had lost over half the altitude gained on climb.

Hope the weather allows some flying.

Here, I am finally unpacking the workshop and model stuff.  Probably a month away from doing some work in the shop.  First order of business will be to patch up the Zeek from it's excursion into a tree about 4 miles from the AMA site in Muncie.  Next a new fuselage for my T-Bird 666.  Then, finish my Super Pearl 542.
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RalphS
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« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2012, 05:50:54 AM »

I saw Dave Clarkson and Richard Wykes yesterday evening.  Richard passed me an A4 sized drawing by Dave that he used for the 1996 Free Flight Forum and is essentially the same as the drawing in #5 although that had been redrawn by someone else for publication.  Dave said that Graham lent him the model for measuring and so the drawing is accurate.  The drawing in #5 is small and for some reason the dimensions have been shown in inches and mm whereas Dave drew it in metric.  I can see that the rib spacing in #5 is shown as 3" and an indecipherable mm dimension.  Dave's drawing gives the rib spacing as 80mm.  Dave commented that Graham used as much left sidethrust as 5 degrees. The original airframe was kept by one of Graham's sons and hasn't been seen.

This doesn't add much but it is nice to see Graham's efforts still being appreciated.   
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Sandgroper
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« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2012, 06:13:04 AM »

Thanks for that Spadge,
when I build one I will use my PAW19 instead of a glow to keep the setup the same,it looks like it will have a nice glide,at the moment I am like Dean with a few projects on the board,the SLOW 525 is next,then the Super Zeus and the Kiwi A.

Phil
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Sandgroper
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« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2012, 06:54:04 AM »

Phil,

I realize I forgot to clarify the "lawn dart" term.  As I apply it, the model stops in a near vertical pitch attitude, then after a brief tail slide, pitches down plummeting earthward.  Usually a too-aft CG and not enough decalage.  When I built Free Flight models as a kid, I would never add weight anywhere, but would hand-glide and shim the stab for a good glide.  Well, due to poor building skills, they were invaribly tail heavy, resulting in too little difference in incidence between the wing and stab.  I also did not understand the dynamics of the spiral climb, therefore, no opposite direction roll.  All contributed to a non-existent transition and a looooong dive to the ground.  They would usually recover, but once the phugoid oscillations stopped, they had lost over half the altitude gained on climb.

Hope the weather allows some flying.

Here, I am finally unpacking the workshop and model stuff.  Probably a month away from doing some work in the shop.  First order of business will be to patch up the Zeek from it's excursion into a tree about 4 miles from the AMA site in Muncie.  Next a new fuselage for my T-Bird 666.  Then, finish my Super Pearl 542.

Ta Dean that clears that up,I had one a few weeks ago with my F1Q Maverick trying to get a steeper straighter climb by reducing decalage-it worked took away some of the right turn and nice steep climb-motor cut while nearly vertical and plowed in from a 5 second run(would probably be fine on a longer run)the internal battery took out a bulkhead and split the fuse for 2 inches.I will stick to my safe but not so steep spirals in future.
I have Googled the Muncie site-very nice but may I suggest they cut down lots of trees between the grass bits and send them to the mill to make wood for clubrooms etc.
I left out the formers in my T Bird boom and it may not be as rigid as standard?1/16" balsa diagonals full lenght with a tube for the DT line may be better.

Phil
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 08:01:34 AM by Sandgroper » Logged
flydean1
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« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2012, 08:01:01 AM »

If you build the fuselage hollow, please don't forget the CF rods!!!

My 666 kept breaking despite the rods, and I am considering putting 1/64 ply tapering flitch plates on the exterior of the fuse aft of the pylon and forward of the stab.  This worked as a repair on my 525 which cracked it's fuselage sides (but not the CF rods) after a few years of heavy flying.  Probably should have used them from the start on the larger models.  Also, I had tipped the stab to over 50 degrees DT angle, and it came out of the sky like a brick.  I later found that most use 35 degrees on anything larger than a .23 model.
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Sandgroper
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« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2012, 08:30:04 AM »

Hi Dean.
Yes I put the carbon rods in full lenght the doublers are 3-4 inches past the pylon and I will limit the DT-mines about 35deg anyway.
If I build another I will use 3/16sq spruce spars top and bottom for the front spar with two 1/8sq turbulators and 3/16sq balsa t&b for the rear,I feel by making a wing too tough and heavy it can be counter productive at times and I am not restricted by NOS rules in Open Power.

On Dixielanders I converted a VHS tape to digital of our first SLOP contest in 1998 this morning,we only had three contestants-it was a club contest and had to trim Dixielander#1 on the day in 12-15 knot winds,the DT angle was a very steep and it came down very hard bouncing and broke the upper 1/8sq balsa spars,number two and three Dixielanders have 1/8sq spruce front spars with 1/16 full depth ply dihedral keepers two bays out and short 1/16 ply keepers at the tips.
The digital version will not upload to U tube so I may have to try another format.

Phil
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Sandgroper
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« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2012, 09:48:59 PM »

Hi all.
here is a 1998 photo of the three entrants after our first ever SLOP club  contest at Meckering.

Phil
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gossie
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« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2012, 11:15:29 PM »

Very clean looking power fliers.  Are you guys all ready for the Nats?
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Sandgroper
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« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2012, 12:51:15 AM »

 Hi Gossie,I  am ready but will have to fly the Dixies  in Open and Slop and the Starduster in F1Q/ 1/2A as I have not had a chance to trim the T Bird  due to high winds,normally at this time of the year we get strong easterlies in the morning turning around to a stiff sea breeze in the arvo with a lull of a couple of hours in between if we are lucky,due to cyclones etc this year is different.
Trevor is always ready for roundie roundies,I used to fly CL but I get vertigo at team race heights and last time I pitted I broke a CF prop in the webbing on my hand-missed catch & three stitches,so free style aerobatics is my limit now.Unfortunately Mike Bielby has now retired from flying due to ill health.
We have a couple of entrants coming over with Aussie diesels in SLOP so I hope we got enough entries.The 1.5`s should not be at a disadvantage we had a winner in the George Fuller event in 2010 with a AM10 Dixielander.I must email Peter L and see if he is coming over.

Off the thread a wee bit-I wonder if it takes a council to be sued for damages caused by flying sheet metal in Queensland before they put in decent building codes like we have up north-if it`s not ok you don`t get insurance,a mate of mine living in Exmouth had his whole house blown into next doors backyard and he didn`t get a cent because it wasn`t strapped or bolted down,he then moved to Queensland?I get tired of watching people whinging their house has blown away when they allow such poorly built cheap houses in cyclone areas and it seems they secure tin roofs with a couple of dozen tech screws.They should read the story of the three little pigs ha ha,my house is in the hills and is double brick and tile with jarrah roof structure and closed in eves,takes a lot for fire to get hold of them and they do not blow over,they may lose a few tiles but very rarely a whole roof.Apols if your house comes into the lightweight class-oh the big tie downs truckies use with blocks of concrete in the ground or tied to tree stumps do the trick if you ever worry about your place NSW has had a few beauts as well.end of rant

Phil
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gossie
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« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2012, 01:42:11 AM »

Been windy and wet here to for a long time.  Can't do much about the weather I'm afraid.

Yep, I get dizzy flying CL too.  The boys reckon it's not enough practice.  They could well be right.  We are going south in June for a week and I'll be taking a couple of CL jobs, and other things with me and see how I go.  Bad to cut your hand there from what you say.

Can't imagine Peter L will come over.......But then again?HuhHuh   Is George Carr coming down from Darwin?

Re. your "rant".  I guess you are talking about even more devastation in north Qld. yesterday.  Very bad up here with very poorly built homes that seem to often blow down.  Our place we bought new here 5 years ago,has a top rating against cyclone damage etc.   A lot don't though even around us.  It's an older area here and an old dump was demolished where we are now.  We are also it seems not flood prone here either, but in the last two places we had they were, and that was worry at times living there.

Seems NSW are running the Nats after yours at Narrendera in January next year.  Just food for thought for those that may like a bit of a drive.



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RobinB
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« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2012, 11:06:27 AM »


This doesn't add much but it is nice to see Graham's efforts still being appreciated.   

Spadge, thank you and the others for obtaining that information. It's appreciated.

Robin
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« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2012, 07:20:16 AM »

Hi Robin ...

pictures of my first 1/2A zeus.  
Still flying but its got a lot heavier .. I was surprised when I measured it.
Building a new one at the minute which I'm hoping to get below 6.5oz.

It used to weigh 6.6oz (in the picture) but its been through the mill a bit.  Latest weights:

Cox TD049 Nelson Head (on Bladder now)
Master 5.5 x 4 prop
35% Nitro

Warps
Prt tip        3mm washout
Prt panel     0mm
Stb panel    3mm washin
Stb tip       3mm washout

Tail           16g
Wing          55g
Fuse          150g
-----         ----
Total         221g  (7.8oz) ouch!!

Declage         0-0
CG                82%-88% (depending on conditions)
Side Thrust    1 degree left
Down Thrust   0 degree

I have a second Zeus which has put on weight ... it started out at 6.5oz and is now 200g (7oz).
Same call outs as above.
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mick66
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« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2012, 07:51:56 AM »

Hi Robin ...

Details for my Super Zeus
Again, the weight has crept up ... started at 21oz

My SuperZeus has a carbon pole and the full 1/2AZeus tail shape.
The pylon shapes not quite orginal as I had to do a bit of hacking about to get the CG right without lead.
Apart from that it is identical to the published GrahamShacklock design.

Fora 21 diesel
Master 9 x 4 narrow prop
D2000/3000
16K

Warps
Prt tip        5mm washout
Prt panel     0mm
Stb panel    5mm washin
Stb tip       4mm washout

Tail            39g (airspan)
Wing          187g (10micron clear mylar with medium weight Jap on top)
Fuse          423g
-----         ----
Total         649g  (22.9oz)

Declage         2 degrees
CG                85%
Left Thrust     4 degree
Down Thrust   4 degree

The photo shows the fuse after it got pranged.  Had to build a new one as the tube was a write off.  One the new one the engine is 1.25" further back.

Building a new one at the minute which I'm hoping to get under 21oz
Started with the tail .. built as light as I dare and its come out at 30g covered in airspan, fluro tips and fuelproof.

I'll post a better pic or two when I get a chance.

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Re: Dave Clarksons SLOP formula
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« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2012, 08:06:09 AM »

Hi Robin ...

Details for my 3rd T34
Identical to the AMI published plan ... except I added an extra bay to each inner panel to stretch the wings

Fora 21 diesel
Master 9 x 4 narrow prop
D2000/3000
16K

Warps
Prt tip        5mm washout
Prt panel     0mm
Stb panel    6mm washin
Stb tip       4mm washout

Tail            32g (LW jap)
Wing          165g (Double covered LW Jap)
Fuse          429g
-----         ----
Total         626g  (22oz)

Declage         0 degrees
CG                95%
Left Thrust     4 degree
Down Thrust   3 degree


I'll post a better pic or two when I get a chance.
I'm building a fourth ... diagram attached ... which will have the same carbon type fuse as the Super Zeus, 2 extra bays each panel compared to the published design.  Some might think the A/R is too high for a slop but the one above seems OK.  They don't go up as fast as flat bottomed section models so are less prone to flutter ... they just glide better.  If the higher aspect ratio doesn;t work out .. I can cut the bays out with a little surgery.

The T34 seems to be better in calmer weather and the SuperZeus in rough ... but to be honest, in my opinion, its 50/50 between the two.

Cheers

Mike
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RobinB
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« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2012, 08:23:40 AM »

Thanks, Mick - it's good to see the details of a model's setup.

What size / source for your carbon fus. tubes?
Do they work out lighter than wood, as well as stronger?

Thnaks for taking the trouble to do the pics.

Robin
looking forward to better weather Sunday

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« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2012, 08:35:16 AM »

Robin

I got the poles from Ewan Jones ... no ideas where he got them.

They work out about the same weight (slighty heavier) than fuse built from (5Ib - 7Ib) balsa.
They are OK as long as you don't prang the model ... then its a new fuse.  They are virtually unrepairable ... at least the ones I've cracked up.
Its when they come in nose first ... the tail wraps itself round the engine.  Balsa fuselages are infinitely more repairable.  
The carbon fuse is no quicker to build either.  They just look cooler!

Attached a pic or two of my first T34. Lost the second at Church Fenton ... untrimmed on its first day out ... in its first comp ... beating DaveHipperson!
He was very good about it and wrote me a nice letter.  He's a 'miss' at the comps as far as I'm concerned.
In fact ... it was the first time I'd ever used a Biotrack system (ask Richard Wykes) ... model was still in the air after 50 minutes

As I said .. its 50/50 between the two models ... all I know is that they are both better than me!

Cheers

Mike

PS. Thats not me in the photo ... I'm better looking
PPS.  Another really good model along the DaveClarkson type lines (flat bottomed) is the Slowworm 432 by DavePlatt ... I've got one with a BigMig.15PB ... as per the Aeromodeller article ... its a good General purpose slop model for rounds.

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« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2012, 09:27:28 AM »


PPS.  Another really good model along the DaveClarkson type lines (flat bottomed) is the Slowworm 432 by DavePlatt ... I've got one with a BigMig.15PB ... as per the Aeromodeller article ... its a good General purpose slop model for rounds.

Yes, I have one on the go, mentioned elsewhere:
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php/topic,928.60.html #85

Those pics are 4 months old and it hasn't really advanced much, I'm embarassed to say.
It has an OS15FP with a OS Motor mount, which I now realise is not the lightest way to mount the engine. Mk2 will be better.

Robin
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« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2012, 12:21:29 PM »

Sorry, that should be #87 of that thread.

Robin
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« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2012, 04:43:33 AM »


PPS.  Another really good model along the DaveClarkson type lines (flat bottomed) is the Slowworm 432 by DavePlatt ... I've got one with a BigMig.15PB ... as per the Aeromodeller article ... its a good General purpose slop model for rounds.

There was an Aeromodeller article about the SlowWorm 432?
When was that?
I got my info from an NFFS Sympo feature, and the plan and notes from Lee Campbell.

Robin
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« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2012, 05:52:34 AM »

Hi all,

came back to thread and theres a page full of goodies to read,I eventually managed to upload a few clips to utube,It was the first SLOP club contest here and we only had three entries.Mike Bielbys  Extended Climax was trimmed but loopy in the wind ,Trevor Letchfords model was a untrimmed bitsa with fuel problems and a control line  glide,my Dixielander 1 was brand new ,we all survived the day intact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgRPGi1hh18

We had all returned to FF power and still relearning

Phil
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