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Author Topic: Vargo-Wock.  (Read 4604 times)
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Bargle
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« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2012, 03:49:38 PM »

Seconded. I like that the prop matches.
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gossie
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« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2012, 08:25:00 PM »

For you Craig.

Prop. blade and noseblock are per the plan.   I used a small bound on and cyano'd  brass hinge in the rear so it would fold.   No loop on front for winding........I don't wind with a prop. on.  Use a blast tube.
Made the spring to pull the prop. forward when the turns run out, and made cut the washers from Teflon. 
Moon shaped hook on rear takes the Grey ring that the rubber is on.  This has been my method to hook up the rubber to the prop. for many years.  The rubber stays in place and never moves or tries to go haywire.
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craig h
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« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2012, 11:43:43 AM »

 Thank you Gossie...do you have a special way to balance the single blade prop ? like do you place it on a special jig
to balance and to add your lead to get the right balance?

   Craigh
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Hepcat
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« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2012, 01:22:42 PM »

craigh
This is not a 'wock prop but it may back up what Gossie says.  It is for a 24" span 'Hepcat' that I made a while ago.  You will see a crescent shaped hook, a hairpin type spring and home cut washers (although mine might have been from old credit card and not 'Teflon').  Years ago I always melted lead or solder for the balance weight but more recently I have used clay, as here, often with a smear of balsa cement on top.

For balancing I just use a small rubber band and bind it round the spring a couple of times, so that the stop is free, and round the blade to hold it open.  I then hold the noseblock and fiddle with the weight to get a balance.  There is no point in super accuracy on the weight balance because the aerodynamic unbalance will give most of the shaking.

John
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BG
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« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2012, 01:48:39 PM »

Hi All,
While we are enjoying pics and descriptions of single bladed folders etc. I thought it might be on topic to ask why? I mean why bother with single bladed props at all. Seems like an odd thing to do so there must be some advantage?Huh

I shall await illumination Grin
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craig h
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« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2012, 02:55:14 PM »

 Thanks to all for the helpful info...this will most definitely help.

   Craig h
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applehoney
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« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2012, 03:00:25 PM »

Quote
why bother with single bladed props at all.

Why?   Because they work very well for me and so I use them a lot.

Of course, the real reason is that I'm lazy.      I do not have to carve two identical blades ... I do not have to set two blades to similar pitch ..  I can use one simple hinge and a very straight-forward shaft/hub assembly.

The outcome ... with careful attention to both static and dynamic balancing they can run almost as smoothly as a double blade folder.  Note I said 'almost' - a SBF cannot match a DBF in this respect but Ive been pleased, in the past, to have accomplished Wakefield/Mulvihill flyers ask me what my secret is in having one run so smoothly.  No secret, just care.  Performance is good.

Oh, did  I mention the most important reason?

I'm lazy.
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BG
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« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2012, 03:54:48 PM »

Ahh well I can understand laziness....that makes perfect sense to me, but is there an aerodynamic advantage?? Or is laziness everyone's reason??
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« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2012, 04:18:21 PM »

No Aerodynamic advantage.
But they look cool and are interesting in the way that tailess models are. Grin


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gossie
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« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2012, 05:38:43 PM »

Thank you Gossie...do you have a special way to balance the single blade prop ? like do you place it on a special jig
to balance and to add your lead to get the right balance?

   Craigh

Just balance using two knives with the prop. shaft sitting on them, until it looks about right.

You may notice the lead in the pic. is rough looking......(a bit like the poor binding in the hub.LOL)  If anything it's a little heavy on that side, so I'll have a small file or grit paper to fine tune it once the winds go on making it look a bit better.

I can remember reading years ago that a single bladed prop. is always in clean air making that method efficient.......I don't really know if that's correct or not, but yes, they are easy and quick to build and do seem to work well.

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« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2012, 06:56:37 PM »

Actually NO one really wants to admit that they only use one blade so that they have a spare... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Grin
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« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2012, 10:31:12 PM »

Talking of SBFs, I have a couple of SBF carbon props here that go onto the front of Rossi 15s.   And do they make the Rossi's sound strong.....Do they what.   Actually they work very well, and it's all but impossible to break them.
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gossie
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« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2012, 10:16:14 PM »

I'm still "messing" about with the Vargo stab.
 
 Have now decided, and in fact started to build a new one, because the first one warped, by laminating the main spar from 1/32 X 3/16, instead of just using 1/16th X 3/16th......Two lamination's using dabs of PVA to hold it together.
1/8th X 1/8th hard LE and fairly hard TE.  I feel this should have it nice and flat before the covering.

I intend to use Esaki Japanese tissue of course, but shall use the "Duco Guro" method of having the grain run from front to rear rather than tip to tip.   Guess time will tell.
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flydean1
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« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2012, 10:26:28 PM »

Don't know what the Vargo stab looks like, but if you only have one main spar, it would not hurt to run a couple spars on the top.  Keeps tissue from compressing the top and warping the tips up.  1/16 X 1/8 suggested.
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gossie
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« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2012, 11:56:36 PM »

Your right Dean, but then that takes away the originality.
  Vargo stab is just a rectangle 18in X 3 and a bit inches wide.   12- 1/4in thick ribs with a 3/16th X 1/16th main spar.    I did laminate the spar with two strips of 1/32nd X 3/16th.
 I've just laid it all out.  At the moment the PVA is drying out so I'll leave like that for a couple of days to settle in and be warp free.......I hope.
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gossie
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« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2012, 04:32:41 AM »

Vargo stab. on the board for a couple of days.   

Friday night here and the weekend coming up fast, and lots of things on the menu.    Will probably get it off Monday, trim it up and cover it.

The larger gusset is to take a hole to take a line to the Tomy timer.
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« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2012, 04:53:46 PM »

Your right Dean, but then that takes away the originality.
  Vargo stab is just a rectangle 18in X 3 and a bit inches wide.   12- 1/4in thick ribs with a 3/16th X 1/16th main spar.    I did laminate the spar with two strips of 1/32nd X 3/16th.
 I've just laid it all out.  At the moment the PVA is drying out so I'll leave like that for a couple of days to settle in and be warp free.......I hope.

This doesn't mean we must duplicate badly designed structures.

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Hepcat
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« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2012, 05:26:02 PM »

Quote from reply #66<This doesn't mean we must duplicate badly designed structures.  OTf'er>

If you are flying to Vintage competitions rules in this country it does!  If you are not flying in competition of course why build an old time model at all unless you are going to make it as it was?

John
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« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2012, 06:18:04 PM »

Quote from reply #66<This doesn't mean we must duplicate badly designed structures.  OTf'er>

If you are flying to Vintage competitions rules in this country it does!  If you are not flying in competition of course why build an old time model at all unless you are going to make it as it was?

John


Here in the USA, we are allowed to add top spars to such structures. Why repeat old ideas which create proven problems? A Wock is a Wock, whether it has top spars or not. Remember the old USA rules were modifided after the fact and aren't original to begin with now.
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« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2012, 06:37:30 PM »

Different strokes for different folks, OTF.  In the US rules are more lax than in the UK, where Oldtimers are built as designed, warts and all,  whereas in the US guidelines are becoming increasingly blurred as builders make allowed amendments, exacerbated by some plan and/or kit purveyors who incorporate their own ideas and in the course of time such become accepted as 'original' rather than what purists view as 'look-alike Oldtimers' - especially whereby added spars alter the aerodynamic properties of the flying surfaces.     Same goes for Nostalgia too, of course.
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« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2012, 06:45:17 PM »

I am sure folks will disagree but to me building old timers is about the look of those models not their performance. For pure performance I go for modern classes (F1B etc.). So, with my OT models I build with the idea that the model should look right and be constructed mostly of the correct materials but also that it can be modified for improved strength and performance. So with that in mind I make small but important adjustments and improvements (carbon here and there, wing incidence, downthrust, decalage etc.). I also use mylar and other modern covering materials, as well as RDT. I don't see the point of rigidly following the practices of the 1930s and 40s (if we did we would dispense with DTs on most of our models). Adding a single top spar to a stab seems like a very minor and quite intelligent modification, and perhaps also one that one of the 1930-40s era modellers may have used in that day anyway. Furthermore, I believe that it falls within the allowed mods under North American SAM regs. Not sure what the OZ regs say one this issue however.

BG
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gossie
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« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2012, 06:05:12 PM »

It's just a personal thing for me to build a vintage type model close to as it was.   I do always add a DT as I don't like losing them.  But of course that does happen at times.

Our OZ rules mean it should be built as it was as and as far as I know no one has gone over board in changing things.   
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« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2012, 06:34:21 PM »

I believe that when carbon fiber starts showing up, whether as part of the models structure or on prop blades as reinforcement..... the games over!!

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applehoney
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« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2012, 09:11:13 PM »

I'm with Gossie in this    Way back,  I was involved with the birth of Vintage in the UK when it originated from small pockets of interest in Croydon, South Bristol; and the Northern Area and when it was adopted by the then-SMAE rules were defined that models should be built to the plan without modifications of any type other than for facilitating d/t operation.

I still find it natural to follow that credo despite involvement in OT and Nostalgia for almost 30 years in North America where rules are so much more lax.   If others wish to 'improve' models by amending structures, etc.  then so be it.   Some push it too far; I've seen an OT model by a prominent successful flyer OT that differed dimensionally from the original  ..  but again I've seen the same back in England. In that instance two modellers were walking back together carrying similar models and it was obvious that one had a longer moment arm than the other - after that, it was never seen again.....
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BG
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« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2012, 11:57:43 PM »

Hmm... well not to belabour this too much but I do draw the line at changing moments, foils, and shapes. Once you mess with these it becomes a new design. As to carbon...simply wood in a different form. Think of it as lightweight plywood....both are merely carbon based laminates manufactured by man. I guess the you would not be offended by a bit of ply used for reinforcement? especially if used in a way that was invisible and only to reinforce balsa not to replace it.

Parting shot.... rigid dogma never encourages new people to join the fun....flexibility and open mindedness does though. If you give people the freedom to find their own ethic you will probably find things working out very nicely.

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