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Author Topic: Swing Control  (Read 14783 times)
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OZPAF
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« Reply #200 on: May 23, 2020, 09:25:55 PM »

I agree that the Panther looks a good candidate Chris. Their suggested line attach point seems way out to me - too far back. The foam model was a lucky find.

John
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sx976
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« Reply #201 on: May 24, 2020, 02:52:38 AM »

I agree that the Panther looks a good candidate Chris. Their suggested line attach point seems way out to me - too far back. The foam model was a lucky find.

John
If you mean the Arado, it's lovingly carved balsa!! Solid model aeromodelling WW2 style!!

Chris P
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OZPAF
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« Reply #202 on: May 24, 2020, 03:36:38 AM »

Whoops! I guess i should have actually read the post completely instead of half guessing. Solid carving is a bit of an art form and it looks accurate. It should work well.

John
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sx976
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« Reply #203 on: June 10, 2020, 11:38:20 AM »

I'm coming to the conclusion that using a wing tip guide does more harm than good. It's obvious that it is causing yaw to the outside of the flight path.

I flew some selected models in our hall this morning and attached the line only to the fuselage hook. The models flew well. The Piper Cub, with dihedral, flew perfectly. The Polecat flew slightly right wing low, but as it still has its ailerons from its RC days, I was able to counter this with the tiniest amount of left aileron. A week ago I flew my Lidl Glider and Delphin, which both have tip guides, and solved the yaw by generous amount of left rudder. But it doesn't look too good and I don't think it's addressing the cause.

The smallest HQ Airglider has a tether point more forward than usual, and also flies well. My Arado, with a tether inboard of the tip does not suffer from outward yaw. A whole bunch of new data!!

So I have ordered a couple of EPP models of 60cms span which will serve as test beds. I will install different tether points and evaluate them. The idea is to set up the CG so they glide reasonably and then just play with the tether points, leaving the CG where it is.

Chris P
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sx976
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« Reply #204 on: June 11, 2020, 05:13:00 AM »

With tether points and CG's running through my mind, I woke up with the blindingly obvious idea of re-checking the 1967 Michael Payne article. Unfortunately he uses the root chord as a reference, not the Mean Aerodynamic Chord, but as the drawing showed a Spitfire I could work it back from there.

I printed out a Spitfire wing and balanced it over an edge to find the MAC. Using the hopefully reasonably accurate drawing in the article (but probaly not!!), I established the CG at 12% MAC and the tether at 1.9% MAC. When I started building these models, I was putting the CG at 30% and over time it moved to 25%. I will certainly try out something in the 12% regime on my test models.

I also checked out his incidence angles. He mentioned 'at least 2 degrees longitudinal dihedral'. The drawing shows about 4 degrees, but he may have slightly exaggerated it to make it clearer.

So I think the tactic will be to get the CG to 12%, trim the glide with the elevator and test from there.

Chris P  
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« Reply #205 on: June 11, 2020, 08:46:27 PM »

I'm not so sure I would use that much decalage Chris.That will make the model very speed sensitive in in my opinion and experience with CLG's and small high powered FF rubber models. I think I would err on the side of low decalage - 1.5deg or less, if using fixed surfaces.

As for the CG - I would then set it for a flat glide.

The line attachment is something I personally would still like to see on a wing tip lead out guide sufficently far forward to give an angle of around 8 deg to a spanwise line drawn through the CG and actually passing through the CG.

Cheers,

John
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« Reply #206 on: June 12, 2020, 02:25:27 AM »

I will carefully document (and publish) the results from the test models!! 

Chris P
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« Reply #207 on: June 12, 2020, 02:28:39 AM »

Thanks  looking forward to your results Chris.

John
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« Reply #208 on: June 15, 2020, 01:34:27 AM »

My first questions when I started this were 'Where is the CG' and 'Where is the tether'? So I thought that it would help if I provide details as I get the models sorted out.

This is the brilliantly flying FMS 467mm Alpha Jet from Banggood (and others). It is ballasted up to 140g in the fuselage for outdoor flying. The CG is 78mm back from the root with the fuselage tether 21mm forward of that. The CG is at 14% MAC which is starting to look like a good place for swept wing aircraft. The tip guide lines up with the fuselage tether in plan view and must be cranked down in side view so that it is the same height as the fuselage tether. The model costs about €15.

Chris P
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« Reply #209 on: June 15, 2020, 04:53:41 AM »

I thought the profile Brewster Bermuda would be easy, but it wasn't. I built it as a 2-line model with a bellcrank and it wouldn't fly at all. I converted it to a single line and it still wouldn't fly. The main issue was the outboard wing which hung down at about 45 degrees. I tried large amounts of weight on the inboard wing which hardly helped at all. I then moved the CG to 25% MAC and the tether point to match. Fortunately I could use the adjustable elevator to trim it, which got it flying without the wing hanging. It needed a lot of nose weight and as a result it flies a bit like a brick on a string.

The photo shows that I try to get the fuselage tether about where the height of the CG is located (to avoid a rolling moment).

I think that the two main negatives with this model were :

- Nose too short requiring a lot of weight (poor choice of subject)

- Wing/Tail set up at Zero Zero.

If I'm super critical, it flies the tiniest amount outboard wing low. Experience with other models showed I can trim this out easily with a touch up inboard aileron.  

465mm Span 157g 6mm fuselage, 5mm surfaces, 0,6mm ply reinforcements

Chris P
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« Reply #210 on: June 16, 2020, 09:19:52 AM »

Hi
Saw this thread on HPA today and was reminded of my whip control Thunderjet I made a few years back. Made of foam covered with craft paper that makes it very strong and rigid. I will have to dig out the plans from my hard disk. The model is safely stored away. Will have to reduce the file size of the photos but have some youtube videos of it flying.
Is it flying / gliding or just a brick at end of the string?
 Tried putting a bell crank for elevator control but somehow did not pursue that project. Must revive it.
Where can I get plans for other whip control models. This one I happened to come across while searching the net.

Some videos of my whip control in flight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjg2j8pon84

In slow motion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDgLvOKfadQ

Anant


 
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sx976
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« Reply #211 on: June 17, 2020, 07:03:48 AM »

Today was the big breakthrough!! The Felix IQ60 arrived and I converted to Whip Control using all I thought would work better. And it did!

CG at 15% MAC (same as 15% Root Chord of 100mm)

Outboard guide not at the tip (to reduce the yaw moment, actually just outboard of the dihedral break to line up horizontally with the fuselage tether)

Fuselage tether 20mm in front of the CG (5mm in front of the LE) and about at the vertical CG

Outbard guide length to give 3 degree forward sweep of the line (thanks John!)

The roll angle matches the line angle i.e. down when it is high and up when it is low. No noticeable outward yaw.

So satisfied!!

Chris P
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« Reply #212 on: June 17, 2020, 07:18:43 AM »

Hi
Saw this thread on HPA today and was reminded of my whip control Thunderjet I made a few years back. Made of foam covered with craft paper that makes it very strong and rigid. I will have to dig out the plans from my hard disk. The model is safely stored away. Will have to reduce the file size of the photos but have some youtube videos of it flying.
Is it flying / gliding or just a brick at end of the string?
 Tried putting a bell crank for elevator control but somehow did not pursue that project. Must revive it.
Where can I get plans for other whip control models. This one I happened to come across while searching the net.

Some videos of my whip control in flight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjg2j8pon84

In slow motion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDgLvOKfadQ

Anant


 
Hi Anant

That's great!! It would fly well on longer lines with a fishing reel.

There really aren't too many plans out there. I put a couple on this site and one of the best is the Grumman Panther from Lupin. If you Google 'catapult gliders', there are plans of some nice early long nose straight wing US jets that can be adapted :  T-33, F-94 Starfire, Mac Donnell FH-1, FH-2 Banshee….. Otherwise it's easy to scale up a 3-view to around 450 - 500mm span and build a profile model with a 6mm fuselage and 5mm wings. Just choose a subject with a long nose!!

Chris P
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« Reply #213 on: June 17, 2020, 07:37:38 AM »

I found this unlikely looking 9'' span design on Outerzone/RC Library in Jr American Modeler 1973 05. I was fascinated by the fact that it can apparently fly loops, inverted, figure 8's and all on one line !! I built one yesterday in less than 90 minutes and flew it in our hall this morning. It lets you know when the CG is too far aft as it becomes absolutely unflyable. Moving the coiled solder just enough forward to get it stable indicates that aerobatics may really be possible !! Unfortunately it was not possible to do loops in our hall, but I will try soon outside.
It flies nose yawed out and right wing low, not unexpected when looking at the design.

We shall see!!

Chris P
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« Reply #214 on: June 17, 2020, 08:25:03 AM »

Anant

To save you googling I have found these in my files. They would all work well as Whip Control models.

Chris P
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« Reply #215 on: June 17, 2020, 09:03:09 AM »

sx976

Thanks for the plans.
Will get down to making a fleet of whip / swing control models.

Can they be made with thick card.

I have in the recesses of my hard disk something called the Ringmaster which I found on the net when searching for whip control card paper model plans. will dig it out and post for reference.
Anant
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« Reply #216 on: June 17, 2020, 09:19:50 AM »

sx976

Thanks for the plans.
Will get down to making a fleet of whip / swing control models.

Can they be made with thick card.

I have in the recesses of my hard disk something called the Ringmaster which I found on the net when searching for whip control card paper model plans. will dig it out and post for reference.
Anant
I have no experience with card. I like balsa or EPP foam and don't like Styrofoam as it breaks/dents too easily. I think you would be better off with balsa as it is stiffer. I even go as far as ordering quarter grain balsa as it doesn't warp. But if card is what you want to try, go for it and let us know the results!!

wp.scn.ru is a great website for finding colour schemes of scale models.

Chris P
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« Reply #217 on: June 17, 2020, 10:35:21 AM »

Hi,

Managed to find the card Ring Master Whip control airplane template

Dont remember where I found this on the net.

Check it out.
Anant
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« Reply #218 on: June 17, 2020, 11:09:56 AM »

This is the construction exploded view.
Anant
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« Reply #219 on: June 17, 2020, 11:12:08 AM »

Yes, I've seen this one before. I don't think it is a good subject for Whip Control as the nose is very short (less than the root chord). If you log into Pinterest and enter 'cutout card airplanes', you will find a large amount of card models. The other alternative would be to use plain card and paint it. For the F-94 you could spray it in grey primer, do panel lines with a  fine felt tip pen and the colour bands with poster paints. The US Navy jets are simply dark blue. Your F-84 had good proportions with the long nose!

Chris P  

Also 'Paper Model Airplanes'
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« Reply #220 on: June 18, 2020, 04:34:51 AM »

Anant

It occurred to me that Depron model plans could serve as a good starter for a carboard Whip Control model. After all, cardboard and Depron are both flat!

If you punch in 'Depron' under 'Search' on hippocketaeronautics you will find many plans. If you are looking for something that has a full fuselage rather than profile, the Blue Angel Baby (scaled down) looks fit for purpose.

F-18 plan attached as a thought starter.

Chris P
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« Reply #221 on: June 19, 2020, 04:39:24 AM »

As I now have a better idea on how to set up Whip Control models, I have bought a second Guillows Sky Raider to try the new ideas on a swept wing model.

Chris P
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« Reply #222 on: June 23, 2020, 04:25:23 AM »

Hi,
Sorry for the delayed response. Will try out your suggestions.
Depron is very easy to sand and cut etc.
Anant
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« Reply #223 on: June 24, 2020, 07:23:40 AM »

Hi,
Sorry for the delayed response. Will try out your suggestions.
Depron is very easy to sand and cut etc.
Anant

You're very welcome!! Depron is a much better material than cardboard and Uhu Por is definitely the best glue to use with Depron. I have built about 20 own design small RC models out of Depron for our sports hall.

Best of luck and please let us know how your new projects work out!

Chris P
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« Reply #224 on: June 24, 2020, 08:30:53 AM »

Yes depron is a good material. I stay on the coast and now the monsoon season has begun. Rains now for at least 3/4 months. Humidity goes up to 85/90%. Cardboard or paper absorbs lot of moisture and warps or looses stiffness. Depron does not have those problems - practically water/moisture proof.
UHU por is available through Amazon but pretty expensive and no locally made alternative is suitable. Next option is PVA glue but that takes a long time to dry.
Anyway now is construction season as outdoor flying is restricted due to rain and wet grounds.
Anant
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