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Author Topic: Swing Control  (Read 14718 times)
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LOUCRANE
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« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2016, 07:17:26 PM »

Bump? Nah...

Thoughts about "whip control" models and flying them... They are silent. They are clean (no oily exhaust mess; no expensive fuel.) Their radius is relatively small compared to powered tethered models. GOOD! And they are very gratifying - even FUN!

As an old ad stressed - Balsa flies better... (opinion, and I agree)

Using a short stick to either tie onto at the flier end of the line, or simply to extend your 'reach' and fly a larger radius while still keeping your cookies down. (Longer lap times, less dizziness and stomach rebellion.) To whip, keep the 'stick' aimed ahead of the model as you turn. IOW, tow the model around. The 'whip' also allows a decent measure of actual UP and DOWN control. And, the moves required are intuitive. How's it work?

Say you're using a hardwood 1/4" (~6mm) dowel 3' (~1 meter) long. Either attach the flying line at the tip of the stick, or use an eyelet like a fishing rod tip guide. (useful if you roll up the line between sessions.) You can fly well over a 20' (~6M+) radius! It might take pulling some slack line into the other hand, like building added reach when fly-casting, to launch without assistance.

The trick is to balance the model wa-ay forward. Usually you'll use a wire guide ahead of the wingtip leading edge. Gross description - something that looks like a soap-bubble wand, in miniature.

The SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLE:
(A) Pull on your flying string in flight will point at the model's CG (balance point fore and aft,) regardless of aerodynamic shapes. (or it will try to...)
(B) The aerodynamic bits are all aft of the CG and will trail the path the CG takes.
(C) Put the model's tip guide as near the near (inboard) wing tip as possible. The pull on your flying line(s) will help kill any tendency for the model to roll away from level. (Or, at least, from parallel to the flying line.)

Thus- point the stick's tip guide above the model's location as you whip it around. That puts the CG into a rising path. The aerodynamic bits will trail the CG ( just as the cloth of flags and pennants, that cheerleaders wave, trail the path of their flag "mast.")

Control will not be as crisp and positive as with an operating elevator, of course, but it WILL be there. Control Line model fliers often 'whip' their models in the landing glide - after the motor or engine noise stops - to make a smoother landing, or to reach a pit man, or to escape tricks the wind may create. And, that's with steel cable lines 60' (~17M) or more in length and no arm-extension stick.
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/LOU
LOUCRANE
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« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2016, 07:31:59 PM »

To Sprogs...

I've been flying control-line for well over 60 years, and I've welcomed many to, or returning to, control-line flight over the past few decades...

I usually suggest that CL flight is a learned reflex, like the skills in riding a bicycle. After a significant time away, when you come back, you can do it, but you WILL notice how shaky you can be, and how much work it is. That fades almost immediately!

Welcome back to "the best of circles!"
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/LOU
KDus
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« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2017, 05:40:14 PM »

This is why I discovered control line as a youth. My grandfather's air scouts manual from the 40's described this thread.
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Control Line!
simpleflyer
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« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2017, 11:39:43 PM »

Thank you, Dustin, for your comment.  It is interesting to learn that the Air Scouts used the concept of swing control models in their manual.  There was some interest and activity in swing control in the 1940s, but when the more conventional and complex model materials became available after the enc of WW2, swing control has become a scarce art.

Al
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Al Locker USA - Will be missed by all that knew him.
sprogs
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« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2017, 03:14:35 PM »

Dear Simpleflyer
I am privileged to be trusted to look after my friend Julie's kid Jake who is autistic. He absolutely loves cars, boats and now planes. I would like to build with him a swing control model so that he an his friends can play safely and locally with them. Would you consider publishing, in the plans section or this thread, a clear plan and instructions for a simple sheet swing control plane that we could build together ? I think it would be the start of something wonderful for him.
Liz
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The interface between air and ground has no thickness at all. So why do I always find room for my aircraft there ?
grey78
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« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2017, 04:39:29 PM »

Liz, did you ever try the whip control with your friend's kid?  How did it go?
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sprogs
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« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2017, 02:25:09 PM »

Hi Grey78
Thank you for asking.
Unfortunately, for some time recently health issues have prevented me from seeing much of Jake, on a couple of occasions I've promised him an outing and not been able to leave the house. He takes these things very personally and I'm hoping to make it up to him.
I decided to keep things simple and I'm putting together an evans volksplane for him. All Flat sheet with a box fuselage, this means his action man can be pilot.
Liz
P.S. He is an absolute natural with my boomerangs, full circle 2nd day out !
P.P.s I'll post photos hopefully around early July.
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The interface between air and ground has no thickness at all. So why do I always find room for my aircraft there ?
LOUCRANE
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« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2017, 03:23:58 PM »

HI, Liz and all in here. Hope you've had progress!

I still prefer the term "whip control" for this type of flying. A whip is a simple tool, and perfectly illustrates the basic meaning of "tool," an extension of the abilities of the human critter.

In control line flying, a flier often has to stretch the landing glide. He calls his action: "whipping," although it is more like swinging his handle to pull the model, keep its speed so he can reach the point  where he wants it to touch down, (PC clarification: the masculine gender pronoun is used here without sexual significance. It fails to indicate which sex the person is - could be either  (or any one of many others?)   Cheesy
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sx976
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« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2019, 10:20:56 AM »

I will definitely have a go at this. I have wanted to build an Avro Lincoln for years, but it would be too complicated for me either as CL or RC with four motors. I would like to go bigger than the usual 12 - 20'', but I don't know what the limits are. So I splashed out on a cheapo 44'' P-38 from AliExpress and a 28'' P-47 from Banggood. Both models come without RC, are foam and should be quite light. Minimum work required to convert.
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sx976
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« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2019, 05:06:37 AM »

After a few days thinking about it, I decided to start off small before going onto the bigger stuff. More in line with what is shown here. So I ordered the very cute C17 (will remove the awful wheels and bin the RC ) and the Zyo-6 (less than €7!!). All very expendable Chinese cannon fodder and good for basic learning.
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sx976
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« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2019, 01:07:56 PM »

I haven't received anything yet that I ordered from China, so I picked up a reduced Lidl Glider for €5,95. It spans 860mm and weighs 172g converted. I wanted to get started!!

I flew it today on my 2,96m pole with a 1,89m line. I had taken some thick solder with me in case I had to adjust the CG, which proved a good idea as it was nose heavy. I have now replaced the wrapped round solder with a hidden solution. However, I was disappointed by the way it flew. Like driving a fully laden bus around a ride and handling circuit. I guess the next step is to fly it on longer lines, which I hope to do tomorrow. However I got the feeling that my dream of large models may be beyond the capabilities of Whip Control. Especially if I need someone to launch for me.

If nothing else, it's a data point.  Roll Eyes
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billdennis747
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« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2019, 01:19:02 PM »

Did you check out May 1967 Aeromodeller? He uses lines up to 25 feet and models with a loading of 7oz /100sg in. Line attaches 1/4" in front of cg. CG just behind LE and 2 degrees decalage.
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sx976
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« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2019, 01:19:52 PM »

And then there's plan B. Which is basically doing what everyone else is doing successfully (particularly regarding model size and weight).

I rediscovered my old WLToys F939 Pole Cat - now there's a name for a Whip Control model !! I never liked flying it. It was covered in dust. Out came the motor and RC. It needed a bit of sprucing up, which was done with some artist's acrylic paints which were a reasonable colour match.

Here's the magic - 400mm span and a weight of 29g !! Just have to finish doing the tether on the wing tip tonight.
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sx976
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« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2019, 01:41:07 PM »

Did you check out May 1967 Aeromodeller? He uses lines up to 25 feet and models with a loading of 7oz /100sg in. Line attaches 1/4" in front of cg. CG just behind LE and 2 degrees decalage.
Yes!!! It came out while I was at University and I remember it well. I have the issue in the cellar somewhere. They were sort of giant Keil Kraft models. The Lancaster was fabulous. Wonderful stuff!!!! It is certainly something I would like to try out, as well as Whip Control with a control line handle and elevator control.

I attached my line 3 degrees behind the CG just like on many CL models. I thought my Lidl Glider was flying somewhat 'tail out' and it definitely has 2 or 3 degrees decalage. The first couple of model are for test purposes and I have absolutely no qualms about hacking them about until I know what works.

I'll definitely build in a second more forward tether point on the Lidl Glider!!
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sx976
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« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2019, 02:11:35 AM »

Here is the modification to both models moving the tether point forward. The CG is on each model as a small black line. On the Lidl Glider the old one is the  forward line (was nose heavy) and the rear one is the new one. As the Lidl Glider has tip dihedral, I decided to move the tether point inboard. If that works out not to be a good idea, I'll move it to the tip again. I also made up a longer line for the Lidl Glider, from pole handle to hook on model 22 feet.
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sx976
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« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2019, 02:25:54 AM »

I realize now why the tether point has to be ahead of the CG. On a control line model, the engine is on the centre line and the lines are raked back to 'line up' with the bow in the lines caused by drag. A whip model is quite different. As the model is pulled forward by the left tip, it will yaw to the right. If the CG is behind the tether, the model will dynamically yaw left and compensate.

I also wanted to see how the Lidl Glider's 'numbers' stacked up against the 1967 'giant Keil Kraft' whip models. (Need to face the terrors of the cellar and find the article). I was surprised! The 1967 models are given as having a wing loading of 7ozs/100 sq ins. The Lidl Glider after CG mods weighs 179g = 6,31ozs. The wing area is 1096 sq cms = 170 sq ins. So the wing loading is 3,71ozs/100 sq ins. A mere featherweight in comparison with the 1967 models!! So it should fly.
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sx976
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« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2019, 03:15:06 AM »

Here we have it :

Lots of good data here!! I guess I should try a fuselage attachment point next. He was building models up to 12ozs and apparently taking off from the ground as the models had wheels.

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sx976
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« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2019, 06:41:18 AM »

I decided to add the Michael Payne type of fuselage attachment point to both models before the next test flights. I realized how lucky I had been choosing two foam models, as a new attachment is easily done by boring a hole with a screwdriver and reinforcing with surgical plaster!

I checked the decalage on the Lidl Glider. It's 3,5 degrees, so in line with his advice of at least 2 degrees. The Pole Cat has zero, but I can change that later, if needed, by slicing out a wedge from underneath the tailplane. I have done the same on a few indoor profile models to get the CG further forward.

I also want to try out his advice of 7ozs/100 sq ins loading. It would mean adding 160g to the Lidl Glider  Shocked  which I have as two 80g fishing weights. Maybe better a bit at a time!! It would also take the model to his maximum 12ozs, so it would provide good data for bigger models.
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sx976
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« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2019, 03:45:31 AM »

Having read and re-read the 1967 Michael Payne article, I realized that something was very familiar. The tether points shown were exactly the same as I did on my 'Round The Pole' models in the 80's. Attached photos of three of them (but I made a whole lot more). I changed the fuselage tethers on the Lidl Glider and Pole Cat to wire, just like on the RTP models. Hoping to do some test flying today, but at the moment it's very windy.
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sx976
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« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2019, 05:48:23 AM »

The test fleet has been joined by a Piper Cub. It was an electric free flight model (of toy quality) and was being sold for something like €5 as it was old stock and the battery wouldn't charge. It has been in my cellar since about 2005! The electrics/electronics could not be removed without major surgery, so I left it all in. The CG was OK, so there was really no reason to take it out and replace it by lead. The whole build and conversion took less than 2 hours.

My wife saw the wire tethers I had bent up for the other two models and said 'I have got just the thing for you'. And she did! Wire spikey things with a loop on them for holding wrapped meat together while cooking. Ideal!!

The Cub has a span of 530mm and a weight of 80g. It is still under Michael Payne's ideal 7ozs/100sq ins, coming out at 4,75ozs/100sq ins.
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sx976
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« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2019, 08:56:02 AM »

The P-38 and the P-47 I ordered from Banggood arrived. I was very disappointed with the quality of the P-38. The foam mouldings are quite crude and very heavy. When I opened the P-47 box I couldn't believe my eyes. Every single foam part was smashed even though the box didn't have a scratch on it. I have had issues before with buying kits from China, but I guess I never learn. Maybe this time  Embarrassed
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sx976
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« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2019, 03:18:53 PM »

I finally got the opportunity to do some testing. I just took the Pole Cat and the Piper Cub to keep things simple. I started off flying them on a pole + line length of 22 feet. I found that the Pole Cat flew more solidly on the forward wing tip tether than on the fuselage tether. The Piper Cub only has a fuselage tether and flew like the Pole Cat on that tether. Unfortunately there's no way to do a wing tip tether on the Cub as the wing is quite flimsy.

The next step was to lengthen the line. I went to a pole + line length of 35 feet. I only tried this with the Pole Cat. A friend offered to launch it, but that didn't work at all. I guess there's some technique we don't have yet. So I started out with the line short and let it slip out. Not perfect but it worked!! The Pole Cat looked fabulous flying on 35 feet. It felt very light when flying - it only weighs about 1oz - so I will try some ballasting and think about a better way of letting out the line.

In any case, a good step forward.  

PS - The Chinese C-17 (above) came and is absolutely fabulous! Superb quality and it will definitely make a good Whip Control model.  
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sx976
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« Reply #72 on: July 04, 2019, 01:14:42 AM »

I woke up this morning with this design for the pole in my head. It's basically a 2:1 pulley system and I think it's better than having a fishing reel. It allows the model to be started without touching the ground and the line will extend to give a pole + line length of 35 feet. Just have to built it now.
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sx976
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« Reply #73 on: July 04, 2019, 09:56:01 AM »

 I picked up a brand new 4,5 metre fishing rod from a flea market today for €8 !! I can start modifying.
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sx976
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« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2019, 07:56:30 AM »

Here is the finished extending line pole. I added a second guide ferrule at the handle end. Seemed like a good idea. I also incorporated a swivel at the top, although it's probably not necessary.
I'm very pleased with the result. I just have to test it now when the gale force winds relent.

It was a 4,5 metre fishing rod pole. I removed the top two sections which means that the pole is quite rigid as the top 'whippy' bits are no longer there.
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