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Author Topic: Swing Control  (Read 9586 times)
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sx976
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« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2019, 11:30:10 AM »

No chance of flying due to the wind, so I modified the C-17 to Whip Control. Roughly the same size and weight as my excellently flying Pole Cat, so I'm confident it will fly well too.
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sx976
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« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2019, 12:50:40 PM »

The new extending line pole had a few issues. The line tended to tangle and the models were very hard to fly on the 3x pole length. I think the next step is to abandon the pulley concept and go for 2x pole length as a start, maybe with the line running up the middle of the pole.

I am now also convinced that the tip mounted tether on the model is the better solution.
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OZPAF
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« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2019, 08:57:08 PM »

Interesting. I was looking at your C-17 and my impression is that the attachment point needs to be further forward - particularly for long lines. The line will angle back from the tip of the rod to the CG of the model at an angle depending on the line length and the weight of the model. It's the exact opposite of the line rake required for control line models as with whip control the power is coming from the whip and in control line from the model.

A small bracket extending from the wing parallel to the fuse with  few holes in would help to get the model flying smoothly.

Happy flying.

John
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sx976
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« Reply #78 on: July 12, 2019, 05:19:27 AM »

Hi John

Thanks for your input and I completely agree with you. So pleased there is actually someone reading this stuff!! I have 3 new models (small Chinese foamies) and had already done the same as you mention. I tried just the fuselage tether as it was recommended in the Michael Payne article a few posts back, but it didn't work well for me.

Attached photos of the X-18, X-22 (each €8 on Ebay) and the Eagle (just over €6 from Banggood). The two jets fly fabulously well and I will now paint them in camouflage schemes with acrylic paint.

If anyone should try the X-18 or X-22, remove the rubber nose, use a Phillips screwdriver to make a hole about 20cms long rearwards into the fuselage and push in a carbon tube. Replace the rubber nose. I presume the models are so cheap as the nose will break off on the first flight. With the carbon tube they're bomb proof.
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sx976
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« Reply #79 on: July 12, 2019, 05:31:07 AM »

Here is the new, much simplified extending line pole. As one line is inside the pole, the chance of tangles will hopefully be reduced.
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OZPAF
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« Reply #80 on: July 12, 2019, 09:13:24 PM »

I have a part finished F16 in Balsa that I had intended to fly with 2 lines to a bell crank on the model. I'm still slowly pondering how to achieve it simply. These models were common in the early 50's and I have heard of them being flown on lines up to 25-30' or more. However these controlled versions needed both hands to fly and possibly someone else to launch the model.

Good luck with you experiments.

Is "Simple Flyer" still around? He was an interesting fellow and I enjoyed his posts.

John
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PB_guy
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« Reply #81 on: July 13, 2019, 01:03:47 AM »

I'm sorry to say that SimpleFlyer (Albert Locker) passed away last year. See: https://www.stickandtissue.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1532979682
ian
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sx976
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« Reply #82 on: July 13, 2019, 09:19:56 AM »

I have a part finished F16 in Balsa that I had intended to fly with 2 lines to a bell crank on the model. I'm still slowly pondering how to achieve it simply. These models were common in the early 50's and I have heard of them being flown on lines up to 25-30' or more. However these controlled versions needed both hands to fly and possibly someone else to launch the model.
I am obviously also slowly working towards elevator control. There are snippets of (old) information on the net on how to do it. I have attached (again) a photo of Jim Walker and a profile Bell X1 plan. However, I expect there will be a learning curve just like I'm experiencing with the single line stuff at the moment.  
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OZPAF
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« Reply #83 on: July 14, 2019, 04:39:25 AM »

I'm sorry to hear that Ian. His gentleness came through in his posts.

sx Here is another plan from 1979 - A F15 eagle. I'm trying to come up with a simple means of operating with only one hand required.

John
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« Reply #84 on: July 14, 2019, 05:18:07 AM »

Sorry to hear about SimpleFlyer.
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sx976
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« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2019, 05:16:27 AM »

I mentioned I was going to paint my X-18 and X-22 in camouflage with acrylic paint. I started in on the X-18 and, er, the paint attacked the foam surface. I thought that the models were the more sensitive styrofoam not EPP, but didn't realize that acrylic would attack it. Should have used poster paints, which I think are water based. I have binned the model and ordered a replacement. No great loss for €8.

The F15 Eagle article was new to me. Thanks!!

Regarding one handed operation of the elevator. Don't shoot me for this, but...……

I fly my electric control line models with a Car Tx controlling the throttle. Much better (and cheaper!!) than fancy vintage 3-line handles and bellcranks. So I guess it would be very easy to fit an small indoor Rx and micro servo in the plane and operate the elevator 'in the other hand' off a Car Pistol Grip Tx throttle lever. Cheap as chips from Hobby King & Co.

I did not personally know Simple Flyer, but it's always sad to hear that creative modellers have passed on.  
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sx976
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« Reply #86 on: July 15, 2019, 06:20:47 AM »

Two little ones, just for fun. A Zyo-6 from Banggood and a Guillow's Rockstar from Ebay. I covered the Rockstar's wings with 1/32'' balsa instead of the transparent mylar foil provided.
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sx976
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« Reply #87 on: July 17, 2019, 12:57:52 AM »

The replacement X-18 came. When I started to take the tether off the one I had tried to paint, I found that the paint peeled off like a sticker and underneath the model was perfect. What I thought was paint attack on the model, was paint attack of the second colour on the first!! After a couple of hours of patient peeling, I now have a second X-18. I also have a second X-22. I had bought it as a chuck glider for the grandchildren about 5 years ago, had totally forgotten about it, and rediscovered it in the cellar. I will use the second models for ballasting trials.  

I want to start going a bit bigger with the models. Not as much as the Lidl glider until I get that one sorted. I discovered the Revell Space Glider. I thought it was expensive at almost €19, but it is a great lump of a thing. Well worth the money. Although the span is only 525mm, it is 570mm long and weighs an impressive 97g.

I also got the Alpha Jet from Banggood as it was on offer at around €13. Not as hefty as the Space Glider, but good looking and bigger than the X-18 & X-22 at 470mm/67g. I will push in carbon tube reinforcements from the nose on both of them.
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sx976
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« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2019, 01:24:11 AM »

Poor weather all day yesterday, so I converted the Space Glider and the Alpha Jet. I am really impressed by these models. They are the sort of size I would like to scratch build. I also ordered a Guillow's Sky Raider foamy. It's ugly, but has a span of 610mm (ca 24ins) which is just where I would like to be. 
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sx976
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« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2019, 08:02:49 AM »

Test flights with my son in the park this morning. The simplified extending line rod is better, but it's still an issue with the length of line left at the handle end before paying out. Too easy to get tangles or have the line wrapped around your feet. Needs improving.
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sx976
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« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2019, 04:35:29 AM »

I have added 30g of ballast to one of the X-22's. The unmodified one is now 46g and the ballasted one 77g. It's so easy with these foam models!! This will increase the flying speed by 30%. A good starting point and great to have the constant baseline of an unmodified model.
With the new pole yesterday, we were flying at a radius of 31 feet.
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« Reply #91 on: July 21, 2019, 06:41:11 PM »

31' is pretty good SX.

John
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sx976
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« Reply #92 on: July 23, 2019, 05:14:19 AM »

Thanks. We are trying to move from the 'toy' category to 'serious kit' !! Looks pretty impressive at that radius.

I am also trying to do something about line tangles, snagging and getting caught around my feet. I have replaced the fishing line with what I would call 'Carpet Thread'. I found it at a flea market. The small guide tube (shown earlier) has been replaced with a thick washer which has well rounded edges. It's obvious that tight engineering tolerances are not the way to go.
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sx976
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« Reply #93 on: August 03, 2019, 01:54:11 PM »

Finally got some decent weather. We are still on the learning curve. Today we flew the ballasted X-22 vs the standard one, the Lidl Glider, the Alpha Jet and the Space Glider. Lessons learned today :

The ballasted X-22 is better on long lines than the standard one.

The Alpha Jet flies well, but needs ballasting to improve penetration into the wind. I have added 40g at the CG.

On long lines, the big Lidl Glider flies well. Just needed a small CG correction.

Couldn't get the Space Glider to fly satisfactorily. Need to do some investigation to find out why.

The button thread is much better then fishing line.

The method of reeling out line is still not staisfactory, but definitely works better with thread than with fishing line. Still working on a solution.

The small meat skewers used as line guides are unsatisfactory. There is a small gap where the loop is formed and the line often comes out of the loop at the tip. I have wrapped them with thread where the gap is and coated it with white glue to solve this problem.
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OZPAF
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« Reply #94 on: August 04, 2019, 09:22:28 PM »

I wonder if very thin Spectra type lines would work? These are sold as high strength fishing lines. They are very thin and would give less drag on the longer lengths. Also just as an idea - instead of paying the line out how about using a small rubber assisted launcher with the model at it's flying radius? These are used to launch small Electric Ducted Fan RC models and are foot controlled via a string from the pilot to a trigger.

Happy experimenting
John
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sx976
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« Reply #95 on: August 05, 2019, 08:41:53 AM »

I wonder if very thin Spectra type lines would work? These are sold as high strength fishing lines. They are very thin and would give less drag on the longer lengths. Also just as an idea - instead of paying the line out how about using a small rubber assisted launcher with the model at it's flying radius? These are used to launch small Electric Ducted Fan RC models and are foot controlled via a string from the pilot to a trigger.

Happy experimenting
John
Thanks John!!

The big issue we have with fishing line is that it just loves to tangle. I have no experience with Spectra, I would like to see some first to check if it's  propensity to tangle is less than normal fishing line.

I have rebuilt my rod with the pulley system from fishing line to thread and we will check that out. I eliminated the top swivel which was only another source of line twisting with no advantages. I also ordered a cheap Chinese fishing reel to see if I can do anything with it. I have a third rod for it that I bought for little money at a local flea market. They are easy to come by!!

I have been doing some maths, particularly with regard to moving on to elevator control. I am now convinced I don't need a launcher - mechanical or human!!

Here goes :

I can hold my hand 7ft 6ins above the ground. If I use a light 12 ft pole, that takes the tip to around 19ft. Double that, less a bit so that the model doesn't touch the ground, is around 37ft. That's more than I need!!

I am also convinced that a line extension system for 2 lines (Elevator) wouldn't work. With a control line handle in my other hand I even gain about another 3 feet or so.  

That's what I intend to try out when I get that far.
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sx976
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« Reply #96 on: August 05, 2019, 12:20:51 PM »

OK I found the error!!

Radius when the pole is horizontal =

12 feet (Pole)  + ca 2 feet (Arm) + 18 feet (Line) = 32 feet

Add 3 feet if a control line handle is used = 35 feet

Still OK!!
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sx976
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« Reply #97 on: August 06, 2019, 01:19:07 AM »

I found this superb looking pole on Ebay last night. 3m long (10 feet), basically a single length parallel tube with end caps. Brilliant, and under €10 new!! So I ordered it. The description curiously stated that it was suitable for 'Fried Fish'.

It will allow me to split the 'fleet' into two groups. This pole will be for the small, unballasted models (X-18, X-22, Pole Cat, Zyo-6, Guillows Rockstar...) and will just have a simple eye attachment at the end with no line length adjustment. The length of the line will be such that when the pole is held vertically with my arm also vertical, the model will be just off the ground. So it will be roughly a 10 foot pole with 16 feet of thread. Flying radius about 28 feet including arm length, if that's not too much for the smaller models.  

The bigger, heavier models will be for a pole with line length adjustment, whatever the final solution will be. Still working on that. Yesterday the Chinese fishing reel arrived and looks promising.
 
Note to John : Using a fishing reel will allow me to try out Spectra. Could be better than thread with a reel.

Then on to elevator control!!
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« Reply #98 on: August 06, 2019, 04:53:40 AM »

Please be aware that Spectra is what is called Braided line. It is supple and can when fishing tangle very badly. It also can cause very bad cuts to your fingers. I would be more inclined to use fluorocarbon line instead. In the thicker diameters it is very stiff. when used as rig hook links it is there because it does not tangle.

Roger
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sx976
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« Reply #99 on: August 06, 2019, 05:49:16 AM »

Thanks Roger. I checked eBay and it's not expensive. Any recommendations on thickness?
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