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Author Topic: CL SCALE?  (Read 5430 times)
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packardpursuit
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« on: December 04, 2008, 10:32:34 AM »

Any interest in CL Scale? It seems to be less popular than FF Scale Gas, these days.

I've still got some 3 line set ups and a brand new '69 OS .35RC

Any one up for a 1/10 Mustang build?
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Sundance12
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2008, 10:46:17 AM »

Hi packardpursuit

What's the span on that size airplane? any plans floating around? any build you want to do will always be met with enthusiasm. Give it a go, show us some tips and techniques, and perhaps some interest will show.

Cheers

Sundance12
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packardpursuit
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2008, 01:04:05 PM »

IIRC 1/10 of 37' would be 3.7 ' or 44.4" Would bigger be better?
I'm thinking a good plan needs to be drawn. Could be part of the program. I've got a NAA P-51B loft, so I'm thinking of Mantz' P-51 Racers of the late 40's.
any interest?
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Eggbert
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2009, 07:31:59 PM »

I have a Royal kit of the Mustang Jr. It is approximately the same size as the Sharpshooter stang that was published in MAN back in the 60s, which had a McCoy 60 for power. This kit would be ideal for a .40 - .45 R/C engine. I have a greenhead .45 R/c engine I could use.

There is quite a bit of interest in C/L scale in my area but so far there hasn't been much motivation to cut balsa yet. Hopefully that will change before too long.
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F4FGuy
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2011, 04:44:00 PM »

I'm new here, and happened across this old post dealing with CL scale and scale RC kit bashing to CL scale.

Attached (I hope) are some photos of my HOB P51 (1/10scale) P51 and instructions for my conversion from the HOB kit.

This AC was started several years ago as an experimental project to attempt a dual purpose CL/RC scale model. For various reasons, it was never completed. As shown, with ST23 engine and retracts installed, it weighs 26 oz.. Projected finished weight, 32-36 oz. The plan was to use the RC components as electronic (down the line) controls for everything except up/down as a UC, and the full RC functions for RC.

Directions:

(1) Before doing anything else, obtain some authenticated three views with plenty of cross sections, and as many photos as you can. These should be of the actual AC modeled.

(2) Open kit box and locate the canopy and decal sheet for the markings. Remove and set these aside in a safe place.

(3) Remove and spread out plans on drawing board.

(4) Compare three views with plan.

(5) Discard plan and draw new one.

(6) Examine all balsa parts in the kit box. Discard all parts using heavier than 12-16# balsa, and/or all parts that don't fit either plan. Either sorting method will yield the same result.

(7) Dig into stash of good balsa and make all new parts to fit new plan.

(8) Toss everything remaining in the box in the trash can.

(9) Cut new foam wing cores.

(10) Build P51 to new plan using new parts.

(11) Locate reserved canopy and decal sheet from step #2 and discard.

(12) Vac form new canopy and install.

(13) apply finish and paint on insignia and markings.

Ron B.
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greggles47
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 10:01:41 AM »

Not Actual scale, but probably the closest that I'll get to making a scale model. More of a sport model, maybe sport 1/2 A Team Race.

Model is based on the CAC Winjeel.
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Glenn (gravitywell) Reach
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2011, 12:39:52 PM »

I have a Sig Clipped Wing Cub kit that I purchased about twenty years ago.  I always wanted to build her for scale and have some fun flying her inverted etc.  Other projects just seem to be getting in the way of building her.  One day for sure though that clipped wing beauty will take to the air!
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Glenn Reach
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2012, 11:02:34 PM »

Hi,
Attached is a sport-scale 3/4 scale P-47 I built over several years.  I started with a Guillows kit and modified it so it could be covered entirely in 1/16 balsa and powered it with an Enya .15 RC.   I've flown it a few times, its very stable i.e. nose heavy Smiley.
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F4FGuy
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2012, 01:11:32 PM »

AIRFAN,

Very nice work! The Guillows kits are a good source for sport scale AC.

Attached are some photos of my Type 22 ZERO, done much the same way. This one is a "Scale Stunt" model.  It's covered with 1/32" balsa. Like the HOB Mustang, I'm afraid not much "Guillows" remains. The wing is geodetic framed and sheeted with 1/32" balsa. tail surfaces are 1# foam, hotwire cut, skelotonized, and sheet covered, engine is a "NORVEL .061weight dry, is 12.5 oz.(a little on the "porky side" for 1/2A stunt, but it's OK).

Ron B.
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2012, 05:02:51 PM »

Ron B.,
Very nice zero.  Looks like you spent some time on the panel lines, nice.  I especially like the cowling!  Thats what I should have done for my P-47. 
Well, there is always next time, I've got a Guillows F6F kit waiting to be built.  Maybe its time to get it started.
regards
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David Murrell
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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2013, 06:02:44 PM »

Here are a couple of different approaches to C/L scale, the Tiger Moth is 50" span 1:7 scale, OS52 4 stroke, full scale working UC, controls etc 3 line controls. Will JUST do a loop! but great to fly with the throttle. Built for F4B scale competition.

The other approach is the late Jim Hunt's Travelaire Sport trainer vintage stunt for Fox 35. Good scale appearance but a symmetrical wing section for aerobatics. Jack Sheeks also designed a series of scale stunt models that fly very well (Staggerwing, OS LA46) and are classic legal.

So, either way is good, just decide if you want full on scale or "stand off" stunt scale.



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F4FGuy
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2013, 12:53:23 AM »

David,

Why have I got to choose one or the other???

My airplanes have been quite successful as stunt aircraft, and as stand off scale aircraft.

The F4F placed in both categories at the same contest, as has the Macchi 202. The BT-13A has been especially successful in scale competition never placing below third, and usually second . All my airplanes are built as closely as possible to scale outline. The full scale airplanes I choose to model all use close to fully symmetrical 'foils the main change is in incidence angle. All of them are capable of better patterns than I can fly, as evidenced by others who've flown them.

As a builder/designer/flyer, the challenge is in building a scale airplane with minimal evidence of change, that is capable in both arenas. Have I modified the airplanes?. Emphatically yes. Have I modified them in obvious ways? The scores would say emphatically NO!

In my experience, in competition, most "scale" models are drastically over weight, under powered,  hopelessly under-engineered, and come nowhere near duplicating true scale performance. Your example of a Tiger Moth is a case in point. the full scale Moth was fully aerobatically capable. It didn't struggle through a loop, it could fly the loop and roll out on top ( I realize this is difficult in CL), but the point is performance envelope.Top speed of the Moth was~110 MPH, stall~30 MPH. This means scale speeds of (I'll give you a break and round up) 16 MPH for the loop, and ~6 MPH landing at touchdown, assuming a wheel landing and rollout 'til tail effectiveness allows the three point attitude,normal landing procedure for the Tiger Moth. I''m betting neither of these parameters can be met by the AC shown. The BT-13 will meet scale performance in both maneuvers (it does have three line control). It also comes close to maxing the static points in AMA Sport Scale. It lost a few points once for having 12  instead of 14 inspection panels on the flap/aileron hinge line, and once for too large a stab. I find it interesting that, in several years and quite a few contests, this was the only time the larger stab was spotted by a judge.

You might think,and you'd be right, that I don't like airplanes that don't look like "real" airplanes. But if they don't perform, I despise them. the only way to get the combination right is to re-think the way we build models.  For instance, the Macchi 202 has a fully monocoque structure, including a carbon/balsa/carbon laminate wing.

Please forgive the rant here, but I'm up to the gullet with scale people saying :"it can't stunt if it's really a scale model", and stunt people saying " it cant be a stunt model it's too scale". I love real airplanes, I love stunt, Ilove scale, I hate Noblers and all their thinly veiled descendants. and I hate scale models which stagger around the circle ,tailheavy , under-powered, and overweight. If you know what you're doing you can have the best of both worlds.

Ron B.
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David Murrell
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2013, 03:11:30 AM »

No argument from me Ron, when I said that the Tiger barely looped, that was more my being chicken than the ability of the aircraft. the 52 Surpass has more than enough power and the elevator is powerful. Like the full size Tiger, easy to fly but difficult to fly well and the throttling of the 4 stroke makes for excellent diving, pulling out of loops or wing overs and touch and goes. Although the All Up Weight is around 7 lb the flight envelope is excellent,3 point landings at not much more than jogging pace and the sprung U/C works perfectly on grass fields. It was never considered as a fully C/L aerobatic model as it was built to compete in F4B scale (and won the Australian Nats in 1996 plus many other scale competitions). People, including pilots who have flown Tiger Moths, comment on the realism in the air as well as the scale details (from the Towner plan). I see no point in doing aerobatics that the full size one cannot do.

In this case I have gone to great trouble to replicate the prototype, with scale wing sections, controls (even in the cockpit) undercarriage, rigging, instruments etc.. to meet the rules of F4B competition. I "dips me lid" to you for the work you put into your aircraft. When you repeat the comment  "it can't stunt if it is a real scale model", of course it can - IF the prototype was designed to stunt and it is built properly, HOWEVER, for F4B competition there are no points for doing any non-scale aerobatics, in fact one of the best F4B models in the world in the 1990's could do little more than climb and dive to emulate the prototype twin cargo aircraft, but it had brakes, reversing pitch propellors, cargo drops and so on.
My point was that a lot of people - like us- like scale models but not everyone wants to - or can - put in all the scale detail so the models of Jack Sheeks et. al. can be made easily and fly well, to go further away from scale, I like the Palmer Hurricane for aerobatics, even if it is a caricature scale only, doesn't stop me from adding a scale finish.

It is all interesting and good fun and that is what counts

Cheers

David M
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2013, 08:01:52 AM »

I have a mild bias against scale models without scale props.
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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2013, 08:14:25 PM »

How about small CL indoor electric airplanes? Anyone with ideas?
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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2015, 06:17:24 PM »

I'm getting all the parts together to build a 24 inch span F4U Corsair from the old Sterling 1/2A kit and also thinking of scratch building a Boeing F4B at about 1/8 scale.  But having a hard time finding scale wheels for the Corsair whihc are 1-1/4 inch or about 1/20 scale and also finding nice scale instruments in any scale.  I have some CL scale models I built years ago with nice scale instruments with metal bezels, but all I can find now are decals.  Robart makes nice wheels for the Corsair, but not that small.

Any help appreciated.
Thanks, Frank
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packardpursuit
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2015, 03:38:46 PM »

Sometimes a good head-on photo of the instrument panel can be used, either all by itself, or by making a panel with holes for each instrument and a photo of the faces placed behind. Not perfect, but quite convincing and relatively simple. Drawn faces, white or light green on black handled the same way is good too. What with computers these days, should be a no brainer for even a quasi geek. Me? I'm definitely E-challenged!
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packardpursuit
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2015, 03:42:48 PM »

OBTW- i've been noodling a 1/16 scale WWII CL's  for using up my stash of Tee Dee .o49's.  A Hawker Hurricane with 30" span, retracts & flaps etc. OH MY.
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ksn3n3
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2015, 08:14:30 PM »

Thanks.  Good idea.  I'll have to look into that.

On wheels, the Williams Bros smooth contour at about 1-1/4 inch would look about right with an overlay glued on to simulate the look of the real wheel.  Might look good on your Hurricane.

I've got the same problem with a whole stash of 0.049s.  Not sure how I ended up with so many.

Oh, checkout the new CL scale forum that they just started!
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« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2015, 05:00:02 PM »

IIRC 1/10 of 37' would be 3.7 ' or 44.4" Would bigger be better? I'm thinking a good plan needs to be drawn. Could be part of the program. I've got a NAA P-51B loft, so I'm thinking of Mantz' P-51 Racers of the late 40's. any interest?

Reno Racer P-51 by Ritch Uravitch, 44in span
http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5762
http://www.outerzone.co.uk/images/thumbs/plans/5762.jpg
CL SCALE?
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George Hostler
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« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2015, 11:17:27 AM »

How about small CL indoor electric airplanes? Anyone with ideas?

I have been extremely successful scaling down a Ringmaster and Hawker Hurricane and flying it indoors using a 250 outrunner. Really fun on 25-30' lines!

Try it  Grin Great for mid-winter in Central Oregon!!

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packardpursuit
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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2015, 12:01:04 PM »

ghostler-

Thanks for the input. I am very familiar with Rich's work, over many years.

Please do not take offense, and please know I do not consider myself  better than anyone else. However, can we discuss the plan itself?

It most certainly is "a" model plan.

It could be argued that it is a "good" model plan.

But is it a "good scale model" plan?

It certainly provides sufficient outlines that resembles a  full scale Mustang. We could even say it is recognizable as being representative of that type or types of Mustangs.  But will a model produced to those specific outlines be a "good scale representation" of a Mustang?









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biggles0106
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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2015, 12:22:48 PM »

ghostler-

Thanks for the input. I am very familiar with Rich's work, over many years.

Please do not take offense, and please know I do not consider myself  better than anyone else. However, can we discuss the plan itself?

It most certainly is "a" model plan.

It could be argued that it is a "good" model plan.

But is it a "good scale model" plan?

It certainly provides sufficient outlines that resembles a  full scale Mustang. We could even say it is recognizable as being representative of that type or types of Mustangs.  But will a model produced to those specific outlines be a "good scale representation" of a Mustang?


Easy solution - build one and report back!!  Grin Grin
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packardpursuit
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2015, 01:46:15 PM »

biggles- Was just trying to get people think outside of , IMHO, a very stale box. Roll Eyes Perhaps raise the bar a little? Wink

I firmly believe everyone should model to what ever level they choose and enjoy it. Roll Eyes I simply prefer a little more specific scale consideration,when it comes to scale model accuracy. Shocked



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biggles0106
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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2015, 02:01:22 PM »

So how do you feel when people call a Reno racer like Strega a P-51 Smiley

I hear you, I'm just pulling your leg!

Mike
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