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Author Topic: KK Slicker 42  (Read 959 times)
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billdennis747
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« on: December 19, 2012, 11:56:03 AM »

Hi all.
I want to build a Slicker and I have been trying unsuccessfully to find advice from those who have flown them. I hear nothing but stories of crashes.
Can anyone tell me about left or right climb, wing warps etc?
thanks
Bill
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PeeTee
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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 12:05:09 PM »

Bill

Are you going to fly it in duration comps - ie with a steep(ish) spiral climb, or on low revs for those calm  summer evenings at Church Fenton Wink

Peter
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billdennis747
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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 12:16:11 PM »

Peter
It will be light with a pretty powerful (well, noisy at least) Taifun Hobby 1cc so I hope it will be fairly rapid. I understand Bill Dean's Mills versions went pretty quickly.
Bill
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PeeTee
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2012, 01:15:18 PM »

Bill

It occurs to me that Adam may be the best person to advise as his Junior Mallard isn't a million miles away from the Slicker design.

If I was to build one (and I recall someone saying that there's a lot of wood involved) I'd go down the usual fly right/right route for pylon type models - some wash-in on the wing right inner panel, tail tilt for the right glide and a smidgen of left thrust. I've seen someone flying one in a duration comp in the Midlands/North, perhaps one of the Rushby brothers, but can't remember how it flew.

Perhaps one of the other power flyers here - Robin B? can give you better advice. I'll also ask my 'chums' down sarf!

Happy building

Peter
ps have you flown the Starduster yet?
pps Can I encourage you to build a nice E36 electric model Roll Eyes
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billdennis747
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2012, 01:33:00 PM »

Peter
Thanks - I will wait and see.
I am currently doping the Starduster wing and trying to keep it flat
All I know about electric models is that when smoke appears, it means the electricity is escaping. I currently have 8 unfinished projects on the go so I could do without more! But then I am thinking about a Slicker.
Bill
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applehoney
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2012, 02:20:46 PM »

>Bill Dean's Mills versions went pretty quickly

Only by the standards of the latter 40's when there were so many Slickers in the air you tended to watch those thermalling without noticing all those spiralling downward.  These days we likely know a little more about warps,  trimming, etc. but I never considered it a good design - too heavily loaded, short coupled, etc.   but at the time they largely competed against themselves and certainly boosted power flying and the subsequent development of better models.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2012, 02:41:40 PM »

I'm rapidly going off the idea!
OK let's go with the slow climb plan. Flat wing and left climb like a scale model?
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glidermaster
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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2012, 04:03:33 PM »

What about a Gastove, Bill?

All the elliptical elegance of a Slicker and then some. None of the bad flying habits.

A little more to the build, though.
John
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gossie
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2012, 04:06:50 PM »

I have a 42".  It initially had a worn out Allbon Spitfire in it that was hard to start, but the model flew okay RR with the usual warps.  It was built about 20 years ago from a '40s kit.

Later on I changed the engine over to an original Mills.75 and it's a good sport flier.

They are rather heavy, short coupled etc. but quite pretty in my view.   I do have a KSB DT timer on it though in case Hung takes a fancy to it.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2012, 04:17:51 PM »

John
The original Gastove was on show at the BMFA Dinner and it looked a lot of work!
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glidermaster
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« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2012, 06:44:37 PM »

That was not the original, Bill, that was the 1965 (final) version.
The 1955 world champion version was simpler if not exactly simple, if you see what I mean.

A glider flyer in the 60's called Paul Newell built a 1/2A version (Cox TD 049) that was very pretty - coloured exactly per the Gaster originals (red and yellow flying surface, black fuselage).

You build beautiful WW1 biplanes and triplanes, Bill, how hard can a f/f duration model be?

John
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applehoney
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« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2012, 06:53:39 PM »

> Flat wing and left climb like a scale model?

Right climb.

My favourite 'Gastove'  was the Hornet .60   version I saw MG flying at Fairlop on a couple occasions. Impressive.
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gossie
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« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2012, 08:56:21 PM »

> Flat wing and left climb like a scale model?

Right climb.

My favourite 'Gastove'  was the Hornet .60   version I saw MG flying at Fairlop on a couple occasions. Impressive.

We need a plan of this one.
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brokenenglish
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2012, 05:55:32 AM »

Bill, perhaps I could chime in a bit.
Don't be misled by your FF scale experience. Forget any idea of going left under power!
Also, I think Bill Dean's original model flew with an Arden, but Eddie Keil probably wanted to show a British engine on the plan and, at the time the original plan was drawn, the Mills was the only reasonably suitable British diesel, so that's what's shown, together with the Frog 1.75 sparker.
By modern standards, a Mk I Mills would be very heavy in a Slicker 42. I'm currently building for an ED Bee.
It's also important to be aware of the development of the trimming of power duration (pylon) models.
In the early days, the trim was determined in the manner of a beginner, i.e. test gliding with a reasonable CG, then gentle power flights, gradually progressing, always simply based on trimming out any unwanted pattern or tendency.
However, during the fifties, a trim management method was developed, based on slight wash-in on the right inner panel (which would give slight left roll), counteracted by sufficient right rudder to give a right turn (right turn + slight left rolling = right-hand spiral). This method was first widely publicised with the Dixielander. Since then, all successful conventional pylon models have used this technique to a greater or lesser degree. It means that you know, before you start, the trim that you're aiming for. It isn't just the result of correcting random tendencies! Obviously with very high power and high airspeeds, the angular offsets required become very small but, in your case, with a Slicker 42 and a 1cc diesel, and the intention of achieving say a 10° climb, around 3/16" wash-in on the RH inner panel would be a good starting point.
Actually, wing warps aren't particularly easy to build in using Bill Dean's method as shown on the plan. I built my wing flat on the plan, as shown, and then inserted 3/16" packing when gluing the LE sheeting in place, with a final correction after covering and doping obviously.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2012, 06:10:25 AM »

Thank you for your clear explanation. It did make sense to me to use the SLOP - type trim, but I was not clear at what point the sport model left trim has to change to right. I also now understand the constant references to crashes in the early days.
I shall lash up a twisted board for the washin. I guess I don't need any tip washout because of the taper.
I am only doing this for nostalgia purposes but I hope for more than 10 degrees!
Bill
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PeeTee
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2012, 06:39:10 AM »

Bill

With regard to wing wash in, my power flying chums down here now recommend building the wing panels flat and adding wash in with a short wedge of TE stock glued to the trailing edge after covering. As a power novice, I've found this an easier and quicker way to set up the model. If the bare balsa offends your 'scale' sensibilities Grin you can always paint it or cover with tissue when the correct wash in is established. It's obviously easier to adjust compared with trying to twist in more or less wash in.

Cheers

Peter
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billdennis747
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« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2012, 06:50:46 AM »

That sounds good - anything for an easy life.
At the risk of becoming tedious - any views on sidethrust?
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brokenenglish
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« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2012, 09:17:38 AM »

Bill,
You won't need any thrust offset. The wing wash-in I mentioned is fairly predictable and, for a Slicker 42, 3/16" is a safe bet.
I forgot an important point that you may not realise. With the wash-in preset, right rudder is then adjusted so that the right turn is "in phase" with the left roll. This means that the wings stay level at all times, i.e. the plane never gets into a roll/bank attitude. In fact, it's a lot easier to do that to explain. Even from the initial hand glides, you'll notice that the plane is changing heading to the right, but the wings stay level, to give a typical power model "skid turn".
The method mentioned by PeeTee (gluing bits under the TE, and presumable varying the length as necessary) will obviously work, but it means you're messing with two variables in stead of one, which is unnecessary.
Another deviation from your flying scale culture will occur if you should experience a power stall. Don't even consider downthrust, move the CG back slightly and put slight positive on the tailplane, in small increments, until you get it sorted.
Now, with apologies for going off-topic on your thread, I have a question...
Did I dream it, or did you once build a 50" span RE8? If so, do any drawings exist?
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billdennis747
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« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2012, 09:59:21 AM »

Thanks again
That makes sense so I will build in the warp. I shall build the crutch this afternoon.
Yes I built a 52" RE8  some years ago and have just repeated the exercise. I no longer draw plans - just blow up a decent three view and make it up as I go along
Bill
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glidermaster
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« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2012, 11:42:16 AM »

That's a beauty, Bill, nice work!
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PeeTee
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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2012, 11:54:35 AM »

Quote
The wing wash-in I mentioned is fairly predictable and, for a Slicker 42, 3/16" is a safe bet.

Dave Clarkson wrote a seminal article in the Aeromodeller on SLOP trimming, and here is what he had to say:

“...Of course the plan you are using will give all of the required trim features to be built-in, as well as the required CG position. What must be realised is that these may not suit your particular motor and prop, and that the finished model may not have these quite as you intended. This is what trimming is all about. Adjusting CG position, rudder, motor thrust, tail incidence and tail tilt are all pretty easy, but changing wing warp is not ....... It is a fact that the faster a SLOP moves in the climb, then the less wing warp is needed to give the necessary roll. When building a new model you don’t know how fast it will climb and therefore how warp much to build in. I have never yet built-in the right warp, and so have accepted that this will be so ...... In fact, on my latest SLOP I built in only 1/8” left tip washout, leaving the rest of the wing warp free. The final trim adjustment I had to do on this model ...... was to add a 2” length of 1/8” x 1/16” strip flat on the underside of the right wing, close to its TE and dihedral break. The addition of this small strip transformed the climb...”

Bill, happy building!

Peter
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gossie
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« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2012, 03:01:08 PM »

If you take a look at my old one you should be able to make out the tab in the fin will send the model to the right.
Tips are both washed out about 3/32, inner left panel is flat and right inner panel has about 3/32 washin on it.    A little downthrust built in but engine looks to be pointing straight ahead......I do always in these sort of cases have the holes in the wooden bearers a little oversize for a bit of 'wriggle' room.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2012, 03:54:36 PM »

Thanks again to all.
I was about to ask Brokenenglish if I should leave off the deownthrust, but no.
Have just cut out the fuselage parts. There will be a lot of weight saving.
Bill
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Hepcat
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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2012, 07:22:22 AM »

Bill, my computer has been out of action for some days but fortunately others have put you in the picture as far as the ‘Slicker’ is concerned.  However as they have really been far too kind I thought I would add a few words of my own.
You have no need to concern yourself with whether to circle it to right or left because in either direction it will tighten into a spiral dive and hit the ground with a satisfying thud.  Also you won’t have the trouble of rigging a dethermalizer because the wing loading is such that its likelihood of a fly away is about the same as that of a stone eagle on a gatepost.
Bitter?, nah, not really, the ‘Slicker’ kit taught a useful lesson.  I and my friends had lived through the depression years and then the war years and were, naïvely, hoping for better things but what we were offered was poorly designed and expensive rubbish.  The balsa wood we had waited years for was either soft and squashy and would have served as toilet paper or was indisguingishable from firewood.  We may have been naïve but the depression years had made us prudent (you see Tmat there is a reason) and as far as I remember I have not bought a kit in the seventy odd years since then. 
John
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billdennis747
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« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2012, 09:04:56 AM »

John
Thanks. How I laughed! Maybe I'll build a Gigi instead.
What is it that makes it so unstable?
Bill
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