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Author Topic: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build  (Read 8688 times)
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Andy Sephton
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« Reply #75 on: March 30, 2013, 04:47:07 AM »

Well said Bill! I was about to put my twopenn'erth in on this one on similar lines, but you beat me to it. The point is, where do you draw the line on mods - built-up tails instead of solid ones, adding moveable flying surfaces, changing wing incidence, adding trim tabs, etc, etc. If we go that route, then we'll turn Kit Scale into another Open Class. As Bill so rightly says: "All changes will be penalised but some of those changes will be rewarded with flying points. It will all even out - your choice."

Russ - it seems to me that Kit Scale has achieved it's aim and pointed you in the direction of the Open Classes - simply said, you've outgrown it! Come and have a chat at the Nats and we can talk over your next Open Scale build. Smiley
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Too much thrust is never enough!
Russ Lister
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« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2013, 05:47:42 AM »

It is a very good point that Bill arrives at in his last post.
I think the line is drawn at the right point Andy as you say .... My only question (at the end of the day it's not really a gripe) is the level of 'punishment' for putting a bit more effort into the build.
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Phugoid
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« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2013, 06:06:12 AM »

Russ, if I had your artistic flair and skill (that pilot makes me green with envy for instance) then I'd be entering the open class anyhow.... There I've said it!

Andrew
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Yak 52
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« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2013, 07:42:58 AM »

I'm sorry if my post last night kicked off the persiflage again. I've long ago stopped worrying about it and I'm just building the model I want to build. [It could have been better chosen for Kit Scale but that's my problem.]

Andrew, yes I could tweak and warp to trim but I just like the precision and reliability of moving a hinged surface or a trim tab.


The point is, where do you draw the line on mods - built-up tails instead of solid ones, adding moveable flying surfaces, changing wing incidence, adding trim tabs, etc, etc. If we go that route, then we'll turn Kit Scale into another Open Class.

Andy, I agree that this is the point especially as the judging is against the plan.

You have to draw the line somewhere but it needs to be drawn with the beginner in mind, that is after all the motivation behind the class. Making built-up tails instead of solid tails, hinging surfaces, even changing peg positions are fairly big mods that maybe a beginner might not wish to tackle. Trim tabs may be unsightly but there are very beginner-ish. What about removeable noseblocks? Covering compound curves in tissue (nose blocks, spats etc) requires more experience than painting them...

A lot of the discussion that the rule has generated seems to be because people are worrying about losing points in static at the expense what they would like to do for the flying. (It was in my case anyway.) I'm now happy to just concentrate on what I need to do to have a nice flying model and try to do a decent job on the finish.

I don't believe trimming indoors without some kind of adjustable surface is very conducive to beginners either. It would be nice if the line was drawn such that there was no conflict between sensible trimming and static penalties. If control surfaces/trim tabs were taken out of the judging entirely then the best flying and best finished model will win. And then you'd have to enter open anyway  Grin



(I'm sorry Russ, this is not the place to make my point  Embarrassed )

Jon
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Phugoid
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« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2013, 08:38:58 AM »

Nobody has answered the question, does anyone know?  I can't find it in the rules.... Are accetate trim tabs (rather than separate adjustable surfaces) penalised?

Andrew
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« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2013, 08:56:06 AM »

I can't find it in the rules.... Are accetate trim tabs (rather than separate adjustable surfaces) penalised?

It was in the 2012 rules Judges guide (p93 6.15.6.7 (e)) as an exception to the deduction
"Installation of artificial aids to stability other than manually adjustable trim tabs."

But the Judges guide has been removed for 2013 and it's now not mentioned.
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Andy Sephton
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« Reply #81 on: March 30, 2013, 10:27:48 AM »

If you want a definitive answer to any questions on BMFA Rules or their interpretation, then send a formal request to a member of the respective committee. Their contact details are on the website.

Notwithstanding, I'm happy to give an informal, unofficial and non-attritutable interpretation here and I would say that any added trim tab not on the original plan would be penalised by the static judges in Kit Scale. However, Bill's comment is still good and highly applicable in this case:

"The rules really are spot on. All changes will be penalised but some of those changes will be rewarded with flying points. It will all even out - your choice."
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Phugoid
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« Reply #82 on: March 30, 2013, 11:07:49 AM »

Ok ta.

Andrew
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Andy Sephton
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« Reply #83 on: March 30, 2013, 02:08:25 PM »

It is a very good point that Bill arrives at in his last post.
I think the line is drawn at the right point Andy as you say .... My only question (at the end of the day it's not really a gripe) is the level of 'punishment' for putting a bit more effort into the build.

Apols Rus, I missed your question earlier.

Kit Scale was conceived as a beginners class to encourage newcomers to have a go. As a consequence, as well as putting the emphasis on the flight score, it was decided that in static, anything extra that an 'expert' would add would be penalised, thus keeping the build as simple as possible. Whether or not the rules achieve that aim is a subject for debate, but that's the fundamental upon which the rules were built.
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #84 on: March 30, 2013, 03:11:24 PM »

Fair enough Andy ... to sum my own personal viewpoint up, I am fine with the penalties for 'Flight Enhancing Mods', it's just the penalties for 'Non Flight Enhancing Mods' that are purely in addition to a standard build as prescribed.
But I can certainly live with the current rules ... and if I couldn't, there are always the open classes as you say. 
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #85 on: March 30, 2013, 03:33:04 PM »

Unexpectedly went into work today after a change of plan .... did some work but did get tempted by the Sopwith again  Smiley

I had a go at making a prop boss with a method that has been spinning around in my mind for years now (no apologies for the pun  Roll Eyes )

I made a quick jig for drilling the holes .... this worked every bit as well as I hoped.
I decided to drill another set of holes ... the inner set to be left as holes ... the outer set to accept the 'bolts'.

The bolt heads use cocktail sticks pushed through the holes. The short end will be sanded to represent the bolt heads .... I'm hoping the other end will part without taking the 'head' with it!
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #86 on: March 30, 2013, 03:53:34 PM »

The drilling jig I used
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danmellor
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« Reply #87 on: March 30, 2013, 04:10:52 PM »

Russ; lovely!

You really want the 5 year ban, don't you...

Cheers,

Dan.
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #88 on: March 30, 2013, 04:25:24 PM »

I'd be happy just to see it flying Dan  Smiley
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danmellor
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« Reply #89 on: March 30, 2013, 05:28:01 PM »

Looking forward to seeing it finished on the 21st!

Cheers,

Dan.
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #90 on: March 30, 2013, 05:34:49 PM »

OK ... I'll admit that I just read that as in the 21st! ... it will be finished this century .... before the 21st April I am hoping.
This one must fly before the day!
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #91 on: April 02, 2013, 05:01:33 PM »

The cowl seems OK with the extra 1/32" balsa added ... you can see this on the inside of the cowl in this shot .... and if you look closely you can see where it nearly went through at about the '2 o'clock' position!
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wordguy
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« Reply #92 on: April 03, 2013, 09:49:57 AM »

I drew myself some plans for a P-nut tripe, but after looking at all those ribs, shelved them.  This build is making me rethink that hasty decision.
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As it is not at all likely that any means of suspending the effect of air-resistance can ever be devised, a flying-machine must always be slow and cumbersome. . . . But as a means of amusement, the idea of aerial travel has great promise.

— T. Baron Russell, 'A hundred Years Hence,' 1905
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« Reply #93 on: April 03, 2013, 03:25:11 PM »

I must admit that with me being a bit rusty, the wing ribs were a little hard to handle .... not really too much of a size drop to peanut though.
Look forward to seeing any progress if you do decide to go ahead  Smiley
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #94 on: April 03, 2013, 04:20:15 PM »

The cockpit surround made from mount board has not turned out too bad ....will probably have to go over it again a bit when the fuselage is covered.
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #95 on: April 05, 2013, 04:06:37 PM »

A quick trial of the 'specially coloured tissue' on the tailplane and then straight onto one of the more critical parts .... the cowl.

The messy look on the sheeting is 'specially coloured adhesive primer'  Roll Eyes  Wink

The camera flash possibly gives a more critical eye than when seen in normal light, but still happy enough with it.

I mentioned p*int earlier ... but I think I got away with it ....
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Phugoid
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« Reply #96 on: April 05, 2013, 04:15:35 PM »

Ahhh, I'm telling teacher Grin
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billdennis747
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« Reply #97 on: April 05, 2013, 04:58:17 PM »

I´d like to know more about the coaming method as I´ve no idea what it involves. In truth I think it looks very effective but seems to be at a larger scale. Is this a function of the technique?
Incidentally, when I was doing my diesel triplane I was surprised to find that the struts on the full size were only 7/8" thick!
Bill
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #98 on: April 05, 2013, 07:27:41 PM »

Andrew .... the reply below didn't post earlier as I thought it had!
The whole 'examining board' are here! .... it's a bit like showing a ref photos of a foul you have committed.
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #99 on: April 05, 2013, 07:37:20 PM »

Bill,
The kit is only 'semi-scale' if rib spacings etc. are taken into account .... I've gone for 'effect' rather than 'fidelity'.
As I mentioned before, it was something I had to hand and fancied trying. It is basically just thick high quality cardboard ... once I got it down to a certain size it started de-laminating so I had to keep flooding it with glue or sanding sealer to hold it together. It was proving tricky to sand the 'P' section I was shooting at, so after a point I just tried to achieve the effect with paint (the dark line and the suggestion of the fixings). Happy enough with the result for a 15" model.
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