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Author Topic: Frog 500 engine  (Read 2727 times)
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lesquilant
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« on: May 10, 2013, 01:29:30 AM »

I have a Frog 500 glow motor since new. It has not been used for over 50 years and at present I am getting it back into working order. However I need some suitable gasket material for the cylinder head and the cylinder to crankcase seal. The original gaskets are a uniform black material in the order of 0.025" thick.
Can anyone give me any help in what materials are available which would be suitable please.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2013, 07:53:36 AM »

In the absence of a reply from somebody who knows what they┬┤re talking about, I have used cornflake packet and hermetite gasket sealant!
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lesquilant
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2013, 06:30:08 PM »

Hi Billdennis747 - thanks for your reply. I have looked up Hermetite but find only Hermatite. Assuming they are the same it describes it as a mineral. Can you tell me what you used loks like and how you used it please.
Les.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2013, 03:18:36 AM »

This was forty years ago when I guess old motorbike engines were different. Looks like it is no longer available. This may be of interest

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/archive/red-hermatite-experiences__o_t__t_46095.html
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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2013, 04:43:20 AM »

I think that there are (were) three sorts of hermatite.  red, green and I think gold.  Red is soft and never goes off completely (it stays rubbery) and I always used it on water pumps, green went hard and was thin and useful for core plugs, the gold usage is a little hazy. 

Your gasket material may well be the graphite type gasket material, or that may be the modern equivalent at least, and is probably the best thing for the 'hot bits'. I'd try and get away with just a gasket, if the surfaces are nice and flat and not pitted you shouldn't need any sealant and using sealants where they aren't needed can you cause you other troubles.....

This all based on car engine 'knowledge' so it may not apply to your little engine!

Good luck

Andrew
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DHnut
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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2013, 10:18:55 PM »

The mention Hermatite took me back to my first car an Austin seven. I agree with Andrew on the types and also agree if the mating surfaces are good there is no need for any gasket sealant. We moved onto Hylomar which was used by RR and was very good at reducing the rate at which oil leaked from the Austin and the MG that followed it.

The gasket for the FROG 500 head can be of a thin high temperature material. The materials now available are superior to that used by FROG. My FROG 500 has a very thin head gasket and the backplate is also a very thin paper gasket with no sealant. 

       Richard
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gcb
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 10:01:12 AM »

Check this out. It may be available to you from local sources. It is from the "Perfect" company:

  http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXDF10&P=ML#tech 

George
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Garf
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 06:53:54 PM »

I got a case of this stuff from Ebay. I have it around here somewhere. Let me know if you want me to look for it.
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« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2013, 06:10:03 AM »

Might want to check if the "PERMATEX" line of liquid gasket is still available - was also sold in various hardnesses.  I still have some that migrated to Germany with me in '72 (non-hardening), and remember well the Hermatite stuff.

For gasket material (backplates) I usually used old playing cards (the paper ones) with never an issue, untill I found some black "Dichtungs Papier" from Graupner.

Pete
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2013, 07:02:47 AM »

Les,

I have made a gasket for a Sabre 19 from the thick cardboard type generic gaskets sold at the local Super Cheap. Worked very well, but I've only run the engine once so I don't know how long it'll last.

If if fails I'll be making an aluminium gasket, either on the lathe or more simply just cut rings out of a drink can. It may take more than one to get the right thickness.

The cylinder to crank gasket can be made from just about anything the right thickness, printer paper, brown envelopes, playing cards.

Good luck getting it running again. What model are you building for it?

I'm not too sure where you'll be able to run it if you're in a metro area, as I remember Frog 500's are very loud.

Greg
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Terry Fitzpatrick
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« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2014, 06:59:37 PM »

I have a 1950's vintage Frog 500 inherited from an older brother. It has a baffle (fence) on top of the piston and a matching slot cut into the head that results in the head gasket being exposed to high pressure and temperature combustion gas. Replacement cardboard gaskets kept blowing out at the slot location. A motorcycle enthusiast friend says there are high temperature gasket sealants used for bike head gaskets. I haven't tried it yet, but my plan is to use a metal gasket with motor cycle head gasket sealant. I did try a metal gasket without sealant and couldn't get a gas tight seal with the 4 head bolts.

My gasket trials were done in the 1960's when I was a teenager. I still intend to get the Frog 500 going again and build a vintage C/L model for it. I will have to build or adapt a silencer for it as well.  I would be interested to know what the original gasket thickness was? Can you measure it with a vernier or micrometer?

regards Terry Fitzpatrick
Sydney AUSTRALIA
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benparry
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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2014, 01:49:20 AM »

Just a silly small thing...
very often the small castings on glow engines warp and bend over the years and the sealing pressure is no longer uniform... this gives you blowing gaskets.
If you take the engine to bits and 'lap in' the gasket faces with a little valve grinding past, you can get the sealing faces true. Then any gasket material you use has a high chance of staying put.
Also, for cylinder head gaskets, you can lap in the head to the barrel and get a gas tight seal without a gasket. This will push up the compression just a bit, but with careful fuel choice it's not a problem.
If you got to an automotive bearing and seal shop, you can get gasket paper. Investigate products from the Loctite range. Stud adhesive applied with care will seal a cylinder head with no problem, as will the hard grades of silicone RTV. One of the best cylinder head sealers and gasket replacement options out there is 'Kawasaki Bond' You get it from the Kawasaki Motorcycle Shop, or online. Build you motor and use a sparing amount of Kawasaki Bond. Don't tighten the bolts. Let it set. Tighten the bolts after 12 hours. I've used this on 1000cc race engines!

Ben
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2014, 04:25:41 PM »

Forget the Hermatite you will be wasting your time, get some Klingersil C-4430 gasket material http://www.klinger.com.au/products2.asp?catID=1&ProdID=4.  Failing that I have replaced a Frog 500 head gasket with soft annealed copper sheet in the past.
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nicole becher
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2014, 01:10:51 PM »

As a school boy in the late 50's I remember a friend having a Frog500 . It was in a Mercury Cobra and flew very nicely , four stroking in level flight an immediately breaking into smooth 2stroke flight as it flew through loops etc. it was a bit noisy as they do not come with a silencer.
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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2014, 01:42:16 AM »

As a school boy in the late 50's I remember a friend having a Frog500 . It was in a Mercury Cobra and flew very nicely , four stroking in level flight an immediately breaking into smooth 2stroke flight as it flew through loops etc. it was a bit noisy as they do not come with a silencer.

An OS-702  muffler (the OS Max-15 , Max-19 and Max-20) muffler will fit the Frog 500 stack-though the angle it is cut at results in the silencer sitting at an oblique angle. At least they are available on Ebay and elsewhere. Note the model number though-other more recent OS muffler styles are not compatible. The volume is probably a bit small for a .30 sized engine-but you do have the option of removing the tailpipe section, (the front and rear parts held together by the long axial threaded rod) and fitting a longer rear section-which you'd have to make. It does though give you a workable muffler, and I doubt anything else on the market will fit.....

 ChrisM
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glbiggles
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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2015, 08:02:17 PM »

I know this is way too late, but I have some sets of original frog 500 Cylinder and Head Gaskets plus a few tanks if anyone is interested.
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Terry Fitzpatrick
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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2015, 08:20:22 PM »

Hi Glbiggles, I would like one of your original Frog 500 head gaskets to get my engine running again. Are you in Sydney? How much do want for one?

regards Terry Fitzpatrick
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glbiggles
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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2015, 09:57:58 PM »

Terry,
I've sent a PM to you.
Steve.
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mitchell22
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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2015, 06:31:37 AM »

Hello glbiggles. Very interested in a tank for the Frog 500. How much were you after please.
Bruce
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glbiggles
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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2015, 11:00:38 PM »

Bruce I've sent you a pm.
Steve.
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Terry Fitzpatrick
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2015, 04:31:29 PM »

Thanks Steve, The gasket set has arrived. I'm now working a silencer design to suit the Frog 500. I was going to make an adaptor to suit an Enya or OS silencer but I don't think it will be too much more effort to build a complete silencer instead.
regards Terry Fitzpatrick
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ffkiwi
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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2015, 05:11:46 PM »

Terry if successful please post it here-there are a LOT of Frog 500s out there....and they're a bit noisy by modern operating standards, so an effective silencer will be a godsend......

 ChrisM
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glbiggles
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« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2015, 09:39:13 PM »

Thanks Steve, The gasket set has arrived. I'm now working a silencer design to suit the Frog 500. I was going to make an adaptor to suit an Enya or OS silencer but I don't think it will be too much more effort to build a complete silencer instead.
regards Terry Fitzpatrick
Many years ago I made an adapter for a K&B 40 with a broken exhaust stack. This was a piece of 1/2 inch ali milled through to slide over the stack and had a 1/2 round opening in the end that sat against the case. This adapter was faced on the outer end to take a bolt on OS muffler and the whole thing was held on with a modified hose clamp strap around the motor.
The only problem with it was the extra ounce or so weight. I could have reduced this a bit by cleaning up the outside by removing some of the unnecessary bulk. but hey it worked so well that I never bothered getting a new case for the motor.  Cheesy
Unfortunately I don't have a picture  :'(
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Terry Fitzpatrick
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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2015, 05:02:21 PM »

Somewhere in in the workshop I have some 1/2 " square bar that would be good for an adaptor but an initial search failed to locate, so I decided to make a tongue silencer instead as a bit of a challenge using 8 mm aluminium plate and 2 mm sheet that I did find. It will be different to the usual type in that it has the exhaust holes in the end face  and they are 2.5 mm dia. & 10 mm long (16 off). This gives it more outlet area than a typical 35 size Enya or OS silencer so the back pressure should be reasonable. The gospel according to the text books is that I should get 15 dB reduction across  the sound spectrum = should be OK Huh? I have read on a web site that the typical tongue muffler doesn't work very well in reducing noise (lack of expansion chamber volume could be the reason for that) so thats why I am trying the "long" small dia. holes. I have access to a decent sound level meter so I will post the results here  if it actually works.

regards Terry Fitzpatrick
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