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Author Topic: Let's talk E20  (Read 64565 times)
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scrubs
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« on: May 19, 2013, 05:19:20 PM »

There's been some discussion of E20 on the P20 thread so how about a separate thread? I exchanged a couple of emails with Bruce and it turns out his club is using bits similar to what I was doing a year or two back. Parkzone 8.5 mm motor direct drive, 2.5" GWS prop, 160 mah single cell lipo and homebrew timer. I started with N20 and 7mm motors but not enough guts there. The only PZ 8.5 mm motor I tried I over propped (U-80) so want to try the smaller props. I've heard the Plantraco tri-turbo is a good prop for this also.

Still have the wing & stab from my mini Star Duster sitting on a P20 and I may steal them back for another E20. Need to remove the curved part of the wing tips to be a valid 20". I'm thinking the components Bruce's group is using and a simple graphite tube based fuse.

bill
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Dave Andreski
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2013, 05:36:07 PM »

Bill,
Any idea of how much thrust you're getting out of the 8.5mm motor and the small GWS prop?
Thanks,
Dave
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scrubs
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2013, 05:57:54 PM »

Dave,
Here's a thread I tried to get some info on:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1616928&highlight=pz+8+5+dd

Notice one guy says "28 gms" and the other says "gobs of thrust". I think the primary advantage is the faster RPM over a geared 7mm or similar. I really had brown-out on my 8.5 PZ P51 motor with U80 prop. But those were crappy old batteries.

I'll be curious to see how Bruce & his gang mount the 8.5 motor. Ian Middlemiss in one of the articles linked on the P20 thread is thread wrapping his GWS 12mm's to the mounts but I'd like to try something adjustable. Hmmmm ... wonder if I could mod the PZ mount.

bill
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Dave Andreski
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2013, 06:16:41 PM »

Thanks for the info Bill.
I recently bought three of the p-51 motor gearbox combos from 'hopmeup' on ebay. Paid $11.66 each. I'd hate to yank the motors out of the gearboxes.
Where are you getting the motors sans gearboxes?

Yes,
An adjustable mount for the round case motors will be small challenge.
Dave
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 06:50:18 PM by Dave Andreski » Logged

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DerekMc
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2013, 06:51:29 PM »

The march issue of the WMC Patter newsletter has details on Bob Stalick's E20 model.

You can download it here:

http://willamettemodelersclub.weebly.com/uploads/3/8/0/2/3802244/march2013patter.pdf
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2013, 07:04:55 PM »

Thanks a bunch Derek!
Very interesting.
Dave
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FF Bruce
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2013, 08:27:25 PM »

I did finish my little E-20 but the weather stopped the flying from happening,but did get Bob Stalick to take some pic's of the three E-20's there.Going to try and post them after he emails them to me.With a GWS 2.5 prop (the orange one) Bob said it turns over 23K and seems to push a fair amount of air for such a small little prop.Only a couple of the guy's have been able to get any flights with their planes, but they report getting about 50+ feet on 7 sec. not bad.The timer we are using uses different resistors to change motor run times,we are going with the 20 sec. one.It really is about 17 and then slowly shuts down.We are going to get around checking the motor run by just checking the resistor being used,that way we time the whole flight and not think about motor run times (we all are using the same type timer).The whole idea of a small electric came from the So. Cal. guys they have been doing this for some time,I'm just trying to put a few rules to it so we don't have a to think about what motor,what battery,what prop and just get what works and put the emphasis on the model not the power train.As for how to mount the motor,one guy used velcro,one a peice of copper wire about 3mm thick and two inches long glueing it to the top of the motor with epoxy and the other end in to the front of the model (just hangs out there) and he can adjust thrust.Me, I made a nose block like a rubber model glued the motor into it and used two dental bands to hold it in.   Bruce     
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scrubs
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2013, 08:52:07 PM »

Thanks for the info Bill.
I recently bought three of the p-51 motor gearbox combos from 'hopmeup' on ebay. Paid $11.66 each. I'd hate to yank the motors out of the gearboxes.
Where are you getting the motors sans gearboxes?

Yes,
An adjustable mount for the round case motors will be small challenge.
Dave

Since I posted that I was fooling around with an old Champ motor & gearbox combo. I broke the large gear in a face plant with a micro RC job. So I took the top part of the gearbox off with the propshaft. There are two plates coming out the sides of the gearbox in the center of the motor. I'll drill holes in those and use a beam mount system. Your PKZ3624 motor/gearbox should be identical.

bill
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2013, 09:19:06 PM »

Bruce,

For motor run timing, are you using a Pico Timer, a Peterborough Timer, or something similar? Stew Meyers described the Pico Timer for single LiPo FF models in the NFFS Sympo for 2011, pp. 97-104. The Peterborough Tomer is described here somewhere on HPA. So far I have only tried the Pico.

Two guys near here have done some E-36, but I have not. I have done capacitor systems and particularly like Chuck Markos' indoor design for Science Olympiad-Capacitor in the same 2011 Sympo, pp. 13-17. the motor is mounted as a pusher above the wing on a 45-degree swept back pylon. I have built 3 of these airframes and have logged at least 200 flights indoors. The only disadvantage to Chuck's design and SO event is that it is not yet official and will have to wait a few years rotation of SO events.

I've also flown indoor FF electric duration AMA Event 221 (10-g max airframe, one 10-mAh LiPo cell) so I am definitely interested in E20, but have built nothing yet.

Publicity on the new 2013 NFFS Sympo should come out soon so many of us will place orders, I expect.

Fred Rash
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Dave Andreski
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2013, 09:36:27 AM »

In reply #6 FF Bruce said-
"The timer we are using uses different resistors to change motor run times".
Hi Bruce. When you have time can you post some simple timer specs, weight/size etc.?
How is it 'armed'?
A little detective work shows that the timer is your design. Correct?
Thanks for the motor mounting tips.
Dave
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2013, 09:40:56 AM »

In reply #7 'scrubs' said-
"Since I posted that I was fooling around with an old Champ motor & gearbox combo. I broke the large gear in a face plant with a micro RC job. So I took the top part of the gearbox off with the propshaft. There are two plates coming out the sides of the gearbox in the center of the motor. I'll drill holes in those and use a beam mount system. Your PKZ3624 motor/gearbox should be identical."

bill

Good idea Bill.
Mine are identical.
Also can get the 'motor only' from the same place I got the motor/gearbox combo.
Dave
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2013, 10:03:19 PM »

Dave,
    No the timer is not my design.I can not even tell you how they work.The gentleman that makes them has made a bunch of them and he is really not sure that making timers is the best way to spend his time.He does read this thread and if he wants to say anything as to how it works or even how to build them I'll leave it up to him.As to the size it is 1\2" X3\4" and wt. about a 1gr. and has an "on" push button that is very small.For me this timer is the key to making E-20 an event.Having a light,easy way to stop the motor.Are there any other "timers" out there that are not to hard to make?I'm new to this so maybe you can help me out.   Bruce
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2013, 10:05:25 PM »

Bruce asked me if I could post a pic he sent. He's the guy in the middle. Sounds like they may have 8-9 entrants for P20 at their small field contest in June. Neat-O

Printed out the E20 in the newsletter link from the Willamette club. BTW, if you go on threir site they have pdf back issues with E36 / E20 info & plans.

bill
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2013, 10:21:59 AM »

Dave,
    No the timer is not my design.I can not even tell you how they work.The gentleman that makes them has made a bunch of them and he is really not sure that making timers is the best way to spend his time.He does read this thread and if he wants to say anything as to how it works or even how to build them I'll leave it up to him.As to the size it is 1\2" X3\4" and wt. about a 1gr. and has an "on" push button that is very small.For me this timer is the key to making E-20 an event.Having a light,easy way to stop the motor.Are there any other "timers" out there that are not to hard to make?I'm new to this so maybe you can help me out.   Bruce

Bruce,
Thanks for the info. I guess I mis-read the newsletter/P-20 plan by Bob Stalick.
Yes, I hope the timer maker chimes in here. Im very interested.
I've made a few Peterborough Timers-
http://www.flyquiet.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1383.0   (link broken)
that bill Piatek (scrubs) turned me onto. Simple enough to make.
This Model uses one-
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php/topic,6719.0.html

Here's a link to a short video-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC58M_zr-c4

Thanks again.
Dave
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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2013, 10:26:40 AM »

Bruce asked me if I could post a pic he sent. He's the guy in the middle. Sounds like they may have 8-9 entrants for P20 at their small field contest in June. Neat-O

Printed out the E20 in the newsletter link from the Willamette club. BTW, if you go on threir site they have pdf back issues with E36 / E20 info & plans.

bill

Thanks for posting this Bill.
Those are great looking Models. I hope we can get some weight info soon.
Dave









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scrubs
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« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2013, 12:39:30 PM »

Bruce says his was around 27 gms, about the same as my bigger Starduster. Bob Stallick's EAP E20 is 66 square inches a little bigger than my models. Wonder if something a hair smaller and lighter would climb better?

bill
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« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2013, 02:19:31 PM »

 Looks like it's about to chime in on this thread with some information.
My name is Luke, I have been building these timers for several years now. There
must be close to a hundred and fifty floating around the west coast now.
 As Bruce says they are .5" x .75", weigh 0.7gram +or- a small bit of solder.
I only make the timer to promote this class of small field or indoor electric model.
I have attached some pictures for review.

Luke.
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« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2013, 03:16:18 PM »

Thanks for some info Luke. A couple of more questions. Is this like the peterbourogh (sic) or pico timer where a pair of contacts are touched with a 9v battery to charge the capacitor or is that done by the lipo? I don't see any pot on the timer and I think Bruce mentioned swapping resistors to vary the motor run. Is it hard motor on & off or is there a run up and decay?

Are you selling these or are the schematics available? Seems like a nice alternative to what's available.

thanks in advance,
bill
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« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2013, 04:40:39 PM »

 Hello Bill.
All R-C timers function by charging up a capacitor and discharging it through a resistor,
in this regard it is similar to the other timers you mentioned.  My timer uses the start
button to charge the capacitor instantly, then the capacitor slowly discharges through
the resistor, this times the motor run.  The motor is hard on, ramps down slowly for a
about 3 seconds resulting a nice transition from powered climb to smooth glide, no zooming.
I make a small batch at a time, this takes up a fair amount of my time that I could be doing
something else.  I have been considering a construction article for one of the model magazines
so I am not ready to release details as yet, but maybe in the near future I will, it depends.
I have a few timers left, if you are interested in one send me a pm  off line.
I fly at the Grassy Knolls at Sepulveda Basin on Sundays usually,  there are a bunch of
timers in these type of planes flying there. 
 
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2013, 09:28:40 AM »

Bruce says his was around 27 gms, about the same as my bigger Starduster. Bob Stallick's EAP E20 is 66 square inches a little bigger than my models. Wonder if something a hair smaller and lighter would climb better?

bill

Thanks Bill.
Can't say what would climb better. Lots of variables.
Dave
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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2013, 09:33:08 AM »

Luke,
Thanks for the photos and info on your timer.
It must have been a lot of fun designing it and even more gratifying seeing many aircraft using it successfully.
Dave
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« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2013, 06:04:50 PM »

Bruce says his was around 27 gms, about the same as my bigger Starduster. Bob Stallick's EAP E20 is 66 square inches a little bigger than my models. Wonder if something a hair smaller and lighter would climb better?

bill

Thanks Bill.
Can't say what would climb better. Lots of variables.
Dave
True. I printed out Stallick's EAP 20 and put it on the building board. He at lot smarter at the game than I. Maybe I'll build a new fuse for the Starduster also. Ordered 8-10 lipos a few months back too. Getting re-jazzed up on this stuff.

Debating going with Microlite or Litespan on the EAP.
bill
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« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2013, 03:51:05 PM »

Hi Bill,
I've looked over but have not printed Bob Stalick's EAP 20.
Not sure I could build an E-20 to 27 grams. We'll see.
Right now don't need any more LiPo's. I have seven 130 mah in good condition.
Microlite or Litespan? I'll have to look up the weights.
Getting re-jazzed up? Me too.
Got back on my Mark Bee's 'Bumble Bee' a few days ago.
Dave
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« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2013, 04:33:10 PM »

Here's another pic of Bruce's E20 and it together with it's big brother E36. Got em from Bruce the other day.

Hey Bruce, how are you doing thrust adjustment on yours?

bill
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« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2013, 06:07:54 PM »

Here's another pic of Bruce's E20 and it together with it's big brother E36. Got em from Bruce the other day.

Hey Bruce, how are you doing thrust adjustment on yours?

bill
Bill,
See the last sentence in reply #6. I guess he uses shims as on a Rubber Model?
Dave
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