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Author Topic: Let's talk E20  (Read 75404 times)
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #875 on: December 29, 2020, 02:51:32 AM »

and that a fully charged LiPo is more than 3.7v (maybe it's meant that no HVs are allowed).

With HV lipos being the norm for small drones these days, it might be hard to find those. Harder than finding 3.8 volt nominal lipos anyway. Moreover, the HV lipos can be charged to "normal" max voltage of 4.2 volts, and most likely the "normal" (3.7 volts nominal) lipos can also be charged to HV max voltage of 4.35 volts (although that would shorten their life span). So I would think it was better to define the max charged voltage, and not what the label on lipo cover says...
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che
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« Reply #876 on: December 29, 2020, 05:42:44 AM »

I understand that the NFFS dropped the battery capacity rule as it was getting difficult to obtain the small high C batteries; seems a pragmatic approach. I was also told by one flyer that an extra 1.5gms on the weight of an E20 would render the glide to be like a brick which I take as total balmy cack (local vernacular description), but there will be an effect. I guess if someone want to charge a LiPo at HV level or, heavens forbid, find a thermal for the FOs then we'd have to live with that.

The idea of a postal would be to encourage flying the class and perhaps to see what the real performance is, so to my mind we should stick to to the rules that NFFS have developed over the years yet at the same time respect those who don't have large spaces to fly and this take Yak's idea on a shorter run/max contest in parallel.

If we made details of the model/drive train part of the eligibility to return a score AND make all that visible then that seems like a good starting place.

I see Derek has offered to host the scores which is an offer that shouldn't be refused !

CHE
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Yak 52
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« Reply #877 on: December 29, 2020, 06:52:26 AM »

If you are going to split the comp into different run times I would make a plea for using the 8 second Peterborough Open rule (or perhaps 10 seconds to include US fliers with a 10 second timer?) This would allow people who've built a SAMS E20 kit or Ferry 500 from the June Aeromodeller to join in. There are already quite a few people flying E20's round this way to either the Ferry 500 rule (12mm N20/CN12 motor) or Open E20 (anything goes in terms of motor) who wouldn't be able to join in if the motor is limited to 8.5mm coreless. (I don't know how many of said people would be up for a postal though.)


As to an extra gram or so killing the glide - I've tended to prefer more weight with more thrust and always use 200-210mAh batteries over 150-160mAh anyway.

I couldn't find any HV lipos under 205mAh but those extra few V's would be worth it in my opinion.

That said - most of my opinions are formed from flying with a short powerful run where more thrust is desirable rather than a longer flatter climb.
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DerekMc
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« Reply #878 on: December 29, 2020, 02:49:03 PM »

Something like this for a E20 Postal Website?  Don't mind the web address. I modified a mothballed site.  I snagged several pictures off of this thread. I'll remove them or get permission for them if the site goes 'official'.

http://goldenage-half-a.weebly.com/

Further P20 Postal Thoughts:

Rules- I'd use the NFFS Rules as the base but I wouldn't exclude any E20's within the spirit of the class.  The goal is to have planes in the air!

Contest format:  What CHE said but increasing the flyoff max can be challenging on small fields?

I'd allow contestants to time themselves.

I'd allow multiple entries as well. How about two entries per plane?  If you want to enter more than twice build more planes!  Cheesy

And lastly- HAVE FUN!



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Derek
che
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« Reply #879 on: December 31, 2020, 09:02:22 AM »

Yak 52 - sounds fare to include as many options as possible. To help, can you define here the full set of rules for the classes you propose please ?

DerekMc - great start ! I see elsewhere you've asked about setting up a Google Sheets (?) type input. Certainly helps the overhead/security for people to input their own scores. I would personally like one entry per plane myself, with perhaps two entries allowed per flyer in each class.

Looks like the idea is getting legs. Will be easy to advertise in SEN, NFFS Digest, FFn, AeroModeller, The Westruther Haggis Breeder's Gazette, etc.

CHE
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Yak 52
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« Reply #880 on: December 31, 2020, 09:50:51 AM »

Hi CHE

Here are the Peterborough rules: http://peterboroughmfc.org/FlyingRules/Ferry500-E20.html

Open E20 rules are used for the Buckminster Gala and Peterborough Flying Aces as these incorporate Ferry 500s. There were 6 entries at Buckminster in October. If you wanted to allow a 10 second run instead of 8 this would perhaps be easier for people with timers configured for NFFS rules.
 

Jon
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DerekMc
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« Reply #881 on: December 31, 2020, 01:29:11 PM »

How about this?
2021 E20 Postal

Dates:  1/1/2021 to 6/1/2021   If supported there could be another one for the 2 half of the year.

-Two Divisions-

  • NFFS E20 Rules

  • Open E20 Rules (Peterborough Open Rules)  The ferry class fits within these so for simplicity stick with the Open E20 rules.


One Entry per plane.  Two entries per class.

Self timing is allowed.

I'll figure out the Google Form to Spread sheet process this weekend so contestants can report their own scores.
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Derek
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« Reply #882 on: December 31, 2020, 02:02:27 PM »

Suggest a universal date format is used.
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DerekMc
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« Reply #883 on: December 31, 2020, 02:10:58 PM »

Suggest a universal date format is used.

And which would that be?  As far as I know there isn't a Universal Date format.  Closest is the ISO convention. 

The easiest for English speakers would be January 1, 2021 through June 30, 2021.   
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Derek
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« Reply #884 on: December 31, 2020, 04:36:26 PM »

I am with YAK 52 on this one. E20 in the Peterborough for is an ideal small field class. I have built a SAM E20 and a Ferry 500 using the Peterborough components with a 8 sec motor run. The SAM with a geared motor and a 1S battery does not get as high but with a 39 gm weight the glide is better. The Ferry 500 with a 2S battery goes higher but with a 64 gm weight the glide is not as good. The durations are similar. I see this as a good entry class and would be dismayed to see it turn into a specialist event. We have enough of those and anything that encourages participation at club level can only be good. I am taking these models to our Nationals to see if I can generate some interest.
Ricky
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #885 on: January 02, 2021, 02:46:21 AM »

Suggest a universal date format is used.

And which would that be?  As far as I know there isn't a Universal Date format.  Closest is the ISO convention. 

The easiest for English speakers would be January 1, 2021 through June 30, 2021.   

Writing out the month is better. My first reaction when reading the original post about dates was "why run a postal for only 7 days in January"? Cheesy

I'd guess a more universal format would be yyyy-mm-dd, as when starting with the year, nobody puts the day before month.

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dylan1024
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« Reply #886 on: January 02, 2021, 03:58:24 AM »

I have not looked into the Google forms thing too much. But you can probably have dropdowns that allow people to select day month and year and then have it populate the spreadsheet in a prescribed way
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DerekMc
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« Reply #887 on: January 02, 2021, 12:32:20 PM »

Suggest a universal date format is used.

And which would that be?  As far as I know there isn't a Universal Date format.  Closest is the ISO convention. 

The easiest for English speakers would be January 1, 2021 through June 30, 2021.   

Writing out the month is better. My first reaction when reading the original post about dates was "why run a postal for only 7 days in January"? Cheesy

I'd guess a more universal format would be yyyy-mm-dd, as when starting with the year, nobody puts the day before month.



Yes, that is the ISO convention which makes sense, but is really weird!
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Derek
Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #888 on: January 03, 2021, 02:51:02 AM »


I guess it all depends on what you are used to. To my eyes, that mm-dd-yyyy seems the weirdest of them all!
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raggedflyer
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« Reply #889 on: January 03, 2021, 09:51:36 AM »

I agree to European eyes it’s easy to read the duration as just a few days. Writing the month as text and year as 4 digits  avoids the problem.
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che
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« Reply #890 on: January 21, 2021, 10:53:00 AM »

Hmmm, the NFFS rules just say that the 'Motor run is 20 seconds' but not from where the timing should start. So a modified HLG can be thrown to 30m or so then the motor started.

Don't shoot the messenger.

CHE
 
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DerekMc
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« Reply #891 on: January 21, 2021, 12:07:30 PM »

Chris, the same applies to F1B I believe.  15+ years ago we talked about tip launching an F1B and letting it glide for a while before the motor started. Way to many variables.  The rules were changed so tip launching isn't allowed and so it goes.

It could be quite effective in E20. You should try it and less us know!   Smiley
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Derek
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« Reply #892 on: January 22, 2021, 05:50:42 AM »

Derek,

Maybe I have already tried it ...........

It's simple to correct, just add that the motor run starts when the model is launched - add to your postal rules perhaps ?

By the same token the English FF rules were changed to state that outdoor events had to be flown outdoors after an individual asked if he could fly his Coupe in the hanger on a particularly nasty English Nationals day. The rules were checked by the CD and he was allowed to, in fact he missed winning when his model climbed a bit higher than usual and hit a light - after that the rule was changed.

Then there was the easyB flown in a indoor scale event because someone played with the scoring one year. A Mr J O'D said it was an Auster, but not a particularly accurate version, and needless to say he was right and won !

I could go on but I won't.

CHE
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BG
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Me with F1B - epic retrieval (flew 10km after DT)


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« Reply #893 on: February 04, 2021, 02:24:47 PM »

Hi All,
I am looking into doing an E20 timer for Hummingbird Model Products .... we are thinking to set it up to work with a band burner for DT (instead of a servo) as well as RDT. We are wondering if the community has anything they would love to see on such a timer. Any particular wishes regarding the power jack and motor connectors? Any wishes regarding batteries? let me know below.

BG
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #894 on: February 22, 2021, 03:04:07 AM »


I got my new E-20 model sorted out yesterday, in nice, calm and palmy winter conditions. The new model is of laser-cut balsa construction, but uses a lot of 3D-printed parts, motor mount, holders for DT servo and timer, wing saddles, and clips to attach the battery underneath the body tube. With the 300mAh (drone) battery the weight is just a tad over the minimum.

On one flight yesterday I put an altitude logger onboard the model. I assume that the 2 grams it weights does not have too much impact on model performance. The altitude on 20s climb was 50 meters and at 10 seconds the model was already at 30 meters, so the climb speed fades a bit during the climb. With sinking speed of around 0,5m/s the still air time should be 120sec for rounds and 70sec for fly-off.

The model climbs right and glides left. There is a stall or two at prop stop, as the models stops at a rather nose-up attitude. So I consider adapting a similar setup as in a Peterborough timer to slightly fade the power off phase, which should bring the model nose done in a more controlled way for transition.

Simo-Pekka took a video of one of the flights. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zuQjd4GjQU
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Let's talk E20
Re: Let's talk E20
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che
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« Reply #895 on: February 22, 2021, 05:06:52 AM »

Looks nice Tapio.

I got similar climb/glide values on one flight with my GTS E-20 albeit my model is around 37grms with the altimeter on board. I fly R-R and accept the stalled transition as I didn't find a reduced power period at the end of the run makes any difference - I'll be interested in your tests for comparison.

Great little models !

CHE
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Yak 52
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« Reply #896 on: February 22, 2021, 05:14:33 AM »

That's great Tapio! Good to see the culmination of your various avenues of development in one model Smiley

I've been developing timers with a hard stop especially to avoid the P'boro fade  Cheesy I was intending to up the dihedral to encourage a CLG type flop transition... Be interested to hear more.
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #897 on: February 22, 2021, 09:06:06 AM »

I got similar climb/glide values on one flight with my GTS E-20 albeit my model is around 37grms with the altimeter on board. I fly R-R and accept the stalled transition as I didn't find a reduced power period at the end of the run makes any difference - I'll be interested in your tests for comparison.

Great little models !

Flights with a fading battery show better transition due to less aggressive pitch up attitude I guess, so this makes me think of fading the power to have a better transition. Currently I run the motor with a FET controlled by a pin on microcontroller. So in a sense the same fashion as in Peterborough timer, where the FET gate is controlled with the voltage of a capacitor. Thus, instead of driving the gate directly with V+ / GND, install a cap and control the cap voltage with the controller pin, but via a resistor. Thus you should get gradual change in the gate voltage, that is smooth on and smooth off of the motor.

Promising class indeed. Whereas E-36 has way too high performance to fly in small summer fields together with F1H gliders and P-30, this class is quite a good match to the two.
 
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