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Author Topic: Diesels for FF Scale  (Read 4113 times)
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Yak 52
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« on: July 08, 2013, 08:12:06 AM »

I've been considering trying a diesel FF model for next summer but I'm a total diesel novice. I'd like to do a small scale model or possibly something for the Bowden trophy.

For the Bowden I was thinking of building the Model Shop Newcastle Wasp (42" Biplane) The plan says engines up to 1cc but I've been advised a Mills 1.3 would suit it. For scale I would go for something a little smaller, around 30-36" span (no specific subject in mind yet.)

I've been reading and gathering info from clubmates but I'd welcome recommendations on how to proceed. Where's best to purchase (ebay seems pricey at the moment?) and what engines would suit a beginner?

I have a little experience with small glow engines but none with diesels.

Cheers,
Jon
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billdennis747
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2013, 08:23:05 AM »

Jon
I don't know anything about the Wasp but  Mills 1.3 sounds too much for a 42" model. I've got one in a 52" scale model.
Here's my opinion. There is only one choice for scale - an original Mills .75. Not Indian, not Boddo, nothing else. There are dozens of designs of suitable size, or that can be enlarged/reduced.
I have sent you a PM
Bill
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Yak 52
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2013, 08:37:53 AM »

Thanks Bill, what sort of size model would you be looking at for a .75? I know the answer will be "it depends on the subject" but as a rough guide? Or any examples?

Thanks
Jon
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billdennis747
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2013, 09:04:58 AM »

I am currently flying .75 in Avro 504 36", Be2e 41" , Strutter 38" SE5a 30". The first and last are overpowered. It's down to wing area and weight. I have flown monoplanes (Puss and hawk Moth) at 44". Weight should be 16 - 20oz max. The thing about the Mills is that you can easily slow it down if overpowered.
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Yak 52
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2013, 11:05:04 AM »

Thanks Bill. So I may get away with a .75 in a MS Wasp if I build light enough..?

What sort of prop diameter would I be looking at?
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billdennis747
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2013, 11:30:31 AM »

I'm sorry, I have no idea what a MS Wasp looks like but if the plan says up to 1cc it will be ok if light and will fly beautifully in nice weather.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2013, 01:58:10 PM »

Sorry Yak, I missed your last question. A Mills develops max power on a 7 x 4 but sounds a bit hectic. For scale an 8 x 4 is the norm.
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Yak 52
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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2013, 04:28:22 PM »

Thanks again Bill. The MS Wasp is not that well known but I believe one won the Bowden a few years back. It's fairly a conventional semi-scale model. For the Bowden rules I could scale the plan (I think).

I really do prefer small for a scale model since that's what I've mostly built until now. But are smaller engines any harder to start?
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billdennis747
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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2013, 04:32:59 PM »

The Mills 75 and 1.3 are the easiest engines in the world to start. Unlike modern engines you can feel what they are telling you. If it doesn't start quickly, you've got something wrong. Only if a Mills does not fit a cowling would I build a scale model without one. Again I refer only to the genuine article.
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« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2013, 05:45:04 PM »

DC Spitfires 1cc and Sabres 1.5 are an okay sport type engine and are all over the place for sale.

A Luton Minor from Aeromodeller......the 44in span one is a nice model and flier.   I built one in 1962 for a Webra Piccolo radial mount engine.   Still have it, and it's won and placed a few times.
 G-AMAW is my one, but in the old copper colour fuselage with silver wings.
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« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2013, 10:18:45 PM »

Jon, for a light model say 30 to 36" span a good 0.5cc PAW would provide all the power you need or you could consider the MP Jet 0.6 Classic (not the 1cc BB version). Yes, a good second hand Mills 75 is more than acceptable if it comes at the right price.

As for starting abilities, I would rank the MP Jet Classic equal to the Mills with the PAW requiring a little more skill and patience (have used all three) but once mastered the PAW 0.5 will happily handle most models up to 44" span. I use a PAW 1cc in a 36" span Dizzy Diesel and a PAW 80 in a PAAgeboy. If you do not want to buy a new engine and keep to a budget consider a second hand 0.75 DC Merlin.

Ployd in OZ
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« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2013, 11:59:14 PM »

Jon
If you can afford a new engine then I would consider the .6 cc MP Jet the ideal engine,(there's nothing like a new diesel) I have used them in models from 36" to 44" span and to me have all the benefits and easy starting of the .75 Mills  They will swing an 8X4 but happier with a 7X4, here's a photo of my 36" span Longster Wimpy built from Walt Mooney plans that flies happily on 3/4 throttle. Apart from the Mills .75 my second hand engine choice for a small model (36") would be  a .5 DC Dart though the chances of finding a good one might be difficult. My best advice is whatever you buy make sure you learn how to start it easily and that it will run at a constant speed before you start to build your model, nothing puts you off  more than being out in the middle of the field trying to start a cranky motor.  I fly all sorts of models, Gliders, Rubber, Electric and diesel powered (mostly Scale) and there is nothing like watching a nicely trimmed diesel powered scale model circling above. Good Luck with your choice
regards Dave
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billdennis747
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2013, 01:44:01 AM »

I too have heard good things about the MP Jet but have never handled one. Check size and weight.
For scale, rear induction is much more convenient.
Need to be aware that the PAW 0.5 is more powerful by far than a Mills 75. Ray Hall flew a 52" Chrislea Ace with one!
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2013, 03:12:38 AM »

Jon

I have an MP Jet which is probably the easiest starting diesel I've owned (from AE 0.5 up to AM35 & PAW 19), but there again I've never owned a Mills.

As for the PAW 0.5, a flying chum has a number of these he uses in FF mini vintage duration and I normally time for him. As Bill says, they are very powerful for the capacity, but not reknowned for ease of starting. If the fits & fittings are there, not a bad starter (but nowhere near the ease of a Mills or MP Jet), but in many cases, four letter expletive inducing Roll Eyes

Peter
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Laurence Marks
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2013, 03:31:27 AM »

Can't agree on the PAW 55 and the difficulty of starting..  inverted a pig but upright or sidewinder, no problems.  Thats my experience anyway.  In fact a few years ago I'd have been much better off at the Nats if it had refused to start.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2013, 03:41:02 AM »

Just to be clear, I have not said that a PAW 55 is difficult to start, although it does not compare to a Mills. But as I did say, I find that modern engines give me no 'feel'. You can be flicking away with no response and then suddenly it is roaring away. Another factor is that the Mills does not care much where the fuel head is.
My views are from the perspective of possibly flying in a competition where I want quick starts. I have no interest in engines per se; they just need to do the job.
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Yak 52
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2013, 05:56:30 AM »

Thanks chaps. The MP Jet has been recommended to me before, but I'm not sure if they are available at the moment (couldn't get hold of Flitehook by phone).

The little MP Jet 040 appeals - smaller again. And when you see what people are paying for Mills' on ebay, a new MP looks very appealing  Shocked
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Greg Langelius
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2013, 07:45:12 AM »

http://www.palmodelproducts.com/engines.html  .049 CI = .8 CC
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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2013, 09:19:38 AM »

If the fits are good a PAW 55 will start quite easily inverted once you have sorted out the starting procedure before hand i.e. get to know your engine before you bolt it into a model.

I used an inverted PAW 55 installation in my Piper Cub and made an elbow feed connected to the needle valve.

For MP Jet Classic availability check with Dave Owen (see http://www.pelaero.com.au home page for PDF price list).

Ployd in OZ
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Yak 52
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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2013, 01:50:03 PM »

I took some photos of Geoff Stubbs' MS Wasp this afternoon. Geoff has an ED Bee in his. He originally tried it with an AE 1cc but it was a bit hot "looping and rolling off the top". He thought a Mills 0.75 might cope but the MP jet .060 would be underpowered.
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Yak 52
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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2013, 12:41:29 PM »

I've just come across this engine as part of a garage clearance. It's labelled as a K19. I couldn't find anything much about it or even what cc it is. I was wondering if it was worth bothering with. I think it may have been used for RC? Is it worth owt? ... and will it ever run again?  Undecided

Cheers
Jon
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« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2013, 02:54:58 PM »

Looks like a Kingcat 1.5. A British engine from the late '70s or early '80s. The Kingcat Deluxe came with a rather snazzy set of exhaust pipes, hence the exhaust fitting. I've no experience of them, but they had a reasonable reputation at the time.

As for other diesels, I agree with Bill; Mills all the way! I've never owned a genuine Mills but the three Indian Mills I've had have all been good, even though they had a reputation for-ahem-variable quality...

Good luck with it,

Dan.
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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2013, 03:00:43 PM »

Not sure the Wasp would be best for Bowden - the Tomboy seems to do very well but frankly it depends in whose hands it is in! As a novice (again after 40 years) my prefence would be fo a high wing tried and tested model and Vic Smeed did produce some some gems! On my return a year or two ago I built the Popsie with an original Mills 0.75. Just perfect!

I have also built his Mam'selle 150% with radio assist and electric because I wanted to explpore electric but diesels still have an irresistible charm.

If you cannot get an original Mills then I have reason to believe that the Red Finn diesels are quite good - probably can be saids to have mimicked  the Mills - similar displacement gives quite some grunt it appears. But nice long stroke and decidedly Millish?  They also do a .5cc I believe

www.Redfinengines.com

The Popsie.... bit like a Bumble Bee but flies just as well!  Oh and Gildings have an auction of model aircraft engines etc. on the 7th November but I don't think the the catalogue is out yet - last year some of the prices were eye watering - bordering on silly! www.gildings.co.uk  

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Yak 52
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« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2013, 05:27:44 PM »

Looks like a Kingcat 1.5.

Thanks Dan , that's the one! I have a feeling this is still a bit bigger than I want. I managed to turn it over though. Sat in a tin box for 15 years. I will clean it up and fettle it.


David - I believe you are right, I'm thinking I need something a bit more robust. And I still fancy small. Maybe a Frog Zephr.


Any thoughts on smaller diesels? What are the DC Dart 0.5cc's like?
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danmellor
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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2013, 05:41:05 PM »

I may have dreamed this, but I'm sure I remember that after the Kingcat and the Glocat, the guy responsible was planning a 0.5cc engine when he dropped dead at Old Warden.

Dan.
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