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Author Topic: Diesels for FF Scale  (Read 4324 times)
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2013, 05:47:19 PM »

Remind me never to make plans for a 0.5cc engine!
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gossie
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« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2013, 07:38:22 PM »

DC Darts are okay, but make sure to get a red head version as it seems the later gold head versions break crankshafts.
An Allbon Dart with green head or red head are much loved and will cost you more than the DC version.
I have a DC version in a small FF model 28in span, and it starts and runs well on a 7X3 propeller.  Fuel is simply a 1/3 of each kero, castor and ether.
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Yak 52
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« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2013, 07:19:39 AM »

Thanks Gossie. I do like the idea of a small scale model.

So what should I use to clean up the Kingcat? I am a complete novice.
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glidermaster
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« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2013, 03:17:25 PM »

Are there any 0.5cc diesels in current production - other than the PAW?

Nice size - good for small fields.
John
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« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2013, 03:48:37 PM »

Some good advice re. cleaning engines here - http://www.supercoolprops.com/articles/sticky_situation.php

Personally I've had good results immersing the engine in cellulose thinners but don't do this if there are plastic parts.

It is best not to dismantle an engine unless absolutely necessary.  If you do make sure that you mark everything so that you put it back together in exactly the same position.



Bryan
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billdennis747
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« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2013, 04:47:48 PM »

John
The only .5 in production is the PAW and is probably the best bet in Canada. The alternative is a Dart but they will be rarer over there I assume.  The Dart is fine but if it breaks you will need someone to fix it. They share the same mounting dimensions. Be aware that the PAW is as powerful as a Mills 75. I gather there are some Russian Mills replicas over there but from recent experience, avoid like the plague.
My PAW starts and runs well, as do the others I have seen.
Are there small fields in Canada?!
Bill
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Hughs Aircraft
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« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2013, 06:41:49 PM »

The September/October issue of Aeromodeller has an article about the "Red Fin Millish Diesels". There is an .049ci and a .030ci. Long stroke design and side port. 75 pounds for the .030 unit from www.Redfinengines.com.

I  hope this helps.
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DavidJP
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« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2013, 04:49:49 AM »

I find the Dart a little difficult to start unless you get the the balance of the fuel tank just right.  But that could be me very out of practice after a 30 year gap! And I recall inverted was a bit tricky too. I found with diesels that after a little while one gets a familiarity with them and it all becomes a lot easier.

I have always liked the Frog designs - some were not the greatest of performers. This - the Linnett is quite appealing but not sure about it's suitability for Bowden - but very manageable size.

Remember that Redfin may be producing a 0.5.

I think if you go into the Redfin site you can open the Aeromodeller report.
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Re: Diesels for FF Scale
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DHnut
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« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2013, 05:27:01 AM »

Jon,
      I have some experience with a range of small diesels in neezers and scale models. The Banks mills replica's all start well and the .4cc works well in my vampire and venom neezers which when powered by a PAW 55 were nearly supersonic.
The Darts are fine mounted upright or side winder. The Redfin Millishes are very good and at least as powerful as a Mills. The .5 is also close to a Dart in performance. Mine both start as well as any Mills.
I have an AM 10 in an Auster AOP9 and it performs well in the inverted position provided it is primed carefully with the piston covering the exhaust ports. It is straight forward to start and requires very little adjustment.
Another trick we use is to increase the ether content in the fuel to 40% and this works well with sub 1cc diesels definitly improving starting and any loss of power is difficult to establish. There are some Aeromodeller articles in the 50's that discussed diesel fuels and their chemistry in detail.
Also as mentioned earlier getting the engine on the test stand and sorting out the settings is the only way to go.
Finally attention to tank height is very important and not always properly done. I have made that mistake on occasions and paid dearly for it.
Ricky   






 
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DavidJP
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« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2013, 12:19:54 PM »

Your comments on the Redfin engines are very helpful Ricky as I have not seen much from the "independent" sources.  I have to say they do rather appeal - particularly the 0.5.  Thanks also for agreeing the the tank height/balance can be a problem - as I said I thought it might have been me having "lost it". 
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danmellor
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« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2013, 02:21:48 PM »

Wish you hadn't mentioned this! I've not flown an IC model for maybe 15 years and now I'm hankering for the smell of burnt diesel permeating my clothes, car and house...

I've still got an Indian Mills 75, a PAW 1.5 (For a long-threatened return to C/L) and a Russian MK17. There's an ASP28 and a knackered HP40 somewhere, too.

I think I may feel the C/L model coming on...

Cheers,

Dan.
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Yak 52
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« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2013, 06:47:25 PM »

Thanks for the pointers chaps. I will be trying to get the Kingcat going and maybe put it in a Bowden model for next year. If that goes ok I might look for a small diesel for FF scale.

Be nice if this thread rumbled on. Go for it Dan  Smiley I will be back with more questions.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 11:14:36 AM by Ratz » Logged
DHnut
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« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2013, 09:44:02 PM »

Dan how does the idea of a model for the PMFC scale event sit. The Mk17 would be a good fit for a WW2 model with the lingish shaft and the needle out of the prop arc. As you say the smell is lovely. You only have to build it to the plan!
 To add a little bit of spice to the thread. Has any one experience with DC Bambi's. I have a Banks replica and almost lost it a short time ago because it runs a very long time on very little fuel. Also the Tomthumb it was in is very small which gave retrival challenges. The DC one I have was really difficult to start initially, ( not run in ) but seems to be improving. It will need some further running before it is put in a model.
The other underated engine is the DC Merlin. A good one and they do vary starts easily and develops a useful amount of power. One thing to watch is that some are insentive to needle and may benefit from sleeving the intake, as has been well documented in SAM35 and somewhere in Areomodeller. I had this same problem with the AM10. It showed as an unwillingness to throttle and a lack of sensitivity to needle position. A double aluminium tube sleeve fixed it totally and this engine is very close to and AM15 being only a matter of 400 rpm down on the same 8x4 prop.
Jon what about somthing like a Ladybird with a big draggy cowling and does look a bit Beaver like.
There I have srirred the pot.
Ricky
   
       
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danmellor
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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2013, 04:25:05 PM »

Thinking about it, my last F/F diesel model was a KK Southerner Mite from the Ben Buckle kit, built around 1996...

It was one of two or three models I've built in 35 years that genuinely flew "off the board" with no trimming being needed. DC Dart on a 7x3 prop and off it went in left hand circles and a left glide. Turned a fair bit of the kitchen floor purple whilst dying Modelspan with Dylon...

Cheers,

Dan.
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« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2013, 04:43:56 PM »

Dear Yak52,
I have just had a quik look to the contributions to your question about 1ccm Diesels. I used exclusively Diesel Power in my youth in free flight competition models. In a nostalgia access I came back this year to diesel application in oldtimer designs, but had to make a survey where to get nowadays a good Diesel. I found out three companies, you may find them all in the internet. The first is PAW of England where a bought a magnific 3cc Diesel, but this size is not your case. But PAW produces also !cc Diesels, which I personally did not try out. Second is the MP Jet 1 cc Diesel of the Czech Republic. I bought one and can assure you that it is a very reliable and powerful engine. If you dont flood it, it starts at the first turns. The third one is a Schlosser 1cc replica which I bought at a german company called Arkai. Schlosser was a german mechanic, but I heared that an American is building the perfect (!!!) replicas in California(Huh) this is also a perfect engine. Both the MP Jet as well as the Schlosser run very reliably, powerful and have good idling. I have run both during the last two weeks now and I am fully satisfied. If you cannot find the PAW, Schlosser and MP Jet I can give you more exact adresses for purchase,
Good Luck
Kurt
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« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2013, 09:50:05 AM »

Jon

The Gildings auction catalogue will be available on-line this coming Friday October 25th.

http://www.gildings.co.uk/auction_calendar.php?sale_id=1528

My PAW 1cc (bought new) has flown my AW FK8 WW1 biplane 43" and my DHC-2 Beaver 48" although the Beaver currently has a DC Sabre 1.5cc in it because I wanted to swing a bigger prop past the radial cowl.

One thing I think you need to weigh up is it better to buy brand new and know that the engine will be a good runner or buy a 50 year old engine that has probably seen a lot of use and been mistreated along the way?

I once bought an engine at a swapmeet that appeared OK but when I put a screwdriver on one of the cylinder head screws I found that the screw was broken with a short bit still lodged in the crankcase.  An engineer friend sorted that out but then I discovered it needed a rebore!
Bryan
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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2014, 08:48:20 PM »

Schlossers are no longer in production and are very expensive [but superbly made-I have three]. I have to echo both Bill and Ricky's comments-you cannot go past an original Mills 75 or 1.3 for scale work. That being said-the MP Jet Classic 0.6 is just as powerful as a Mills 75 and handles just as well as the best Mills 75. I own half a dozen of each so have plenty of experience with them for comparison. About the only criticism I'd make of the Classic is its two bolt beam mount-which does deny you the ability of easy thrust line adjustment via washers that we're used to with traditional 4-point beam mounting. [mind you the ED Baby was the same-and an awful lot of those were sold and used!] The nice thing about the MP Jet (apart from its general availability) is it's a virtual drop in replacement in size weight and power for the Mills 75. The 1.3 has some modern replicas (CS/Boddo and Redfin)-but the jury is still out on the latter as to whether they are half decent or not. The Indian ones are no longer being produced.
   I doubt that the 1cc MP Jets are of much use for scale-they are high revving front rotary jobs-great for R/C and F/F duration-but not especially amenable to big props.
  The Russian Mk-17 has been touched on earlier-these are readily found on Ebay, are ball raced, and have a nice long shaft that's useful in some scale situations. By and large there seems to be a preference for rear induction engines for FF scale-if for no other reason that the difficulties of accessing controls under a cowling with FI engines. The preference for sideports is understandable with their ability to turn a large (often scale diameter) prop, good suction and integral tanks-and their generally easy starting docile handling and lack of fiddliness.
  Mind you-even the master, Eric Coates was not averse to using ED Super Furys and ED Racers if the power needs of the model dictated...........and these are still around if you look.

  One area that might be worth investigating-and to the best of my extensive knowledge, no one has ever done it-would be a diesel conversion of the Cox Queen Bee 074. Now this engine was less than impressive in glow form-but the head is the same dimensions as the TD/Medallion 09-so an aftermarket (MECOA?) diesel head ought to work on it-and allow it to turn 7" and 8" props. It's rear induction, has a throttle-and a nice long NVA, and isn't too heavy.
    Hmmn-I have one-and a Mecoa Cox09 diesel  head somewhere-methinks some investigation is in order.................

 ChrisM
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DHnut
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« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2014, 09:42:15 PM »

I have just finished running the recently arrived Red Phin 1cc and the results were very good. Then first start was on the third flick and after a futher 2 tanks I progressively up the compression and leaned the engine out. The tank is good for at least 4 minutes when running on a 9x4 that was used. All four of the Red Phin engines that I have have shown excellent starting that is at least as good as any of the Mills or replicas I own and my impression is that they are all turning a little faster. The 1.5 is lighter at 106 grms than the 1.3 Mills and the extra capacity definitely gives it an edge. The 1cc weighs 74 grams and dropps into a .75 mounting; just the job for a marginally powered scale model. The .75 weighs 64 grams. If these standards of production are maintained then there is a viable substitute for a Mills. The fuel mix used was 40% ether, 25% castor/synthetic oil, 1.5% DII with the remainder being kerosene.   
Ricky
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« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2014, 10:24:36 PM »

That's good news Ricky-reports elsewhere (Barton site for example) indicate the engines are OK-and the vendor service top notch-but they haven't been around very long and have yet to make their presence felt much on the flying field. Apropos to my earlier comment above on the Queen Bee-I've dug the various bits out-test fitted the Mecoa head and it looks like the conversion is quite feasible. Give me a week or so and I should be able to report back with some test figures.

 ChrisM
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Yak 52
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« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2017, 07:40:56 AM »

Hi Chaps,

I've decided to sell the Kingcat as I have too many other projects at the moment. Its cleaned up and turns over - any ideas what it might be worth?

Thanks,
Jon
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« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2017, 08:49:58 AM »

Gildings sale results here:-

https://www.gildings.co.uk/sale_results/?search=kingcat

I believe Ray Hall is/was selling a Kingcat for £45 recently.

Bryan
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« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2017, 09:14:56 AM »

Ok thanks Bryan. I've just put it on ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kingcat-1-5cc-Model-Diesel-Engine/272899969320 with no box or documentation I don't expect it will fetch much but we'll see Smiley

I'd probably rather get a hold of a smaller diesel at some point - since I tend to build small Smiley
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