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Author Topic: Strategies for Vintage FAI Power  (Read 4999 times)
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glidermaster
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« on: September 06, 2013, 03:30:28 PM »

We haven't had much that's new to talk about in the Power Models section, so I thought I'd start a thread on Vintage FAI, as I contemplate a new model.

Last months contest in Oregon had a pretty good spread of models from Era 1 to Era 5 (Check out FAIPower.com for what this means if you're unsure), but on the face of it, you need to build an Era 2 model with an OS Max III 15 to challenge. Bruce Hannah has won this contest 3 times on the trot now with his Ray Monks design, and this year Marty Thompson made it a Monks 1-2.
Era 2 is good - Hand launch is OK if ROG causes concern (there were 4 people flying VTO in Oregon), and the field of published designs is vast, ranging from pretty (1955 Gastove) to functional (Monks), and the OS Max III 15 provides a lot more urge than true Era 2 engines, which should really confer an advantage to Era 2.

Bob DeShields Era 3 Saturn was a revelation, the Super Tigre G20/15 was (I am sure) pumping out quite a bit more power than any that were around in 1960, and mated to a Poti glass prop it was clear he had a lot of thrust available. Up to Era 4 one can use nitro fuel, of course.

My own Era 5 models aren't bad really, I've got G15s that give plenty of power, even on straight fuel, and auto surfaces have advantages - they can get away from a poor tansition for instance - the thing that caused Bob DeShields to miss the fly-off in Oregon, and that spoilt Marty's final fly-off flight. Also I am drawn to Era 5 for reasons I won't go into. I used to be keen on models like Orbiteer and Condorian (low pylon, under slung fin, plenty of downthrust). I hesitated to build one, as spiral stability issues seem likely. During some research I found a John West article that described the layout as 'the best way of removing wing tips I've come across' in Free Flight News in 1971 and Bob Stalick's first flight with a brand new High Society didn't help my doubts about the layout.

I found a Monks No.5 in FFn; it would be the model he flew in the '69 champs. It's elliptical, I remember it clearly and Ray did very well with it, making the '67, '69  and '71 teams, and getting to the fly-off at the world champs 2 out of the 3 times. I have even started working up the plan in AutoCad.

But Night Train is a better model, truth be told. Perhaps I could build another and make it straight this time, and down to weight.................

...........and finish it as well as Bob DeShields...............well, I can dream.............

.....now then, pipe or no pipe?

John
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danberry
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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2013, 05:26:19 PM »

A jaysBird with an Era 2 engine would never lose.
Ever.
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FF Bruce
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« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2013, 08:19:30 PM »

OK John you've asked a very good question.I have studied this event very close.One thing to think about is would you like to fly this model in more than just Vintage.With most era 1&2 they also work for A Nost. of course they need to weigh 500 gr. but most come out about that much anyway.I built the Monks model just for Vintage because it's a 57 design can't be flown in Nost. Second, is what motors you have,this saves on the great "must find a good one" hunt.Now to the what era is the best.I like era 2 because the model is 9 oz's lighter than the later era's and the motor's turn around 17K.The next era I might try would be era 6 you can fly with a Rossi and get 10 motor run (with the 3 min. max).The early Rossi's turned 23K but the last ones it was more like 28K and with 10 seconds they would get very very high.I've flown in 15 vintage contest maxed out in all of them,won 11.Like in most events consistency is the key. Glen S. has tried era 1 and done well and with the right motor it to could be a winner.One more question is how hard to I want to work at this.A full house 1973 FAI model is alot of work, a 1953 Fubar X can be built in few weeks.There you go,what do think?     Yes Dan a Jay's bird is a good model as is a Creep and both can be flown in A Nost.   Bruce
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glidermaster
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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2013, 08:42:04 PM »

A question does come to mind on the subject of the Jaysbird;
Why did Vic Jays move to Gastoves?
The '58 British team had the rather strange mix of Arthur collinson flying a Jaysbird derived design, and Vic Jays flying a Gastove.

I have some Rossi 15 Mk.1s and could easily drop them into my Era 5 models, making them Era 6 - the engine runs being the same, I would profit by a 20% power bump.
Also my Mk.1 Rossis were tuned by my Dad, so they're not stock, shall we say.......................

A Jaysbird would fit with my Surbiton Club roots - Vic Jays being a Surbiton Club member.

So what happens when a guy with a Jaysbird comes up against Bruce Hannah? I think I'd put $5 on Bruce.........
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FF Bruce
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2013, 09:06:32 PM »

I don't know much of British team history but don't both model use the same wing airfoil?And as a matter of which looks the best the Gastove wins hands down.At lest the rudder matches the rest of the model. If your Rossi is a MK 1 you can use it no matter what been done inside it.
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glidermaster
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2013, 03:00:17 PM »

I think you might be right, Bruce, I will go and check my stack of Aeromodellers and Free Flight News.
I correspond with John Thompson in the UK, from time to time, and he has done quite a bit of FAI Power research - the practical kind i.e. building models, and he wrote about it in the SAM 1066 Clarion. He built many models, including an Era 3 Slick Stick and an FAI size Jaysbird - I assume to the 17.5 oz rules - and for whatever reason ended up putting a Nelson in it. He desribed it as not for the faint hearted (no kidding), but said it is a design that will handle lots of power. I vaguely recall him claiming that it would get to the better part of 1000 ft. in 10 secs. - on the Nelson, of course, not an Oliver!
I guess if you want to win you go to the end of whatever Era tickles your fancy, and look at the models topping the big contests at that time, for instance the five Cranfield 1960 joint winners might be the pinnacle for Era 3, D'Aloglio's model for Era 4, Baumann's '69 winner for Era 5 (that's a model I really like).
I was just browsing FAIpower.com, and spotted Koster's Era 5 Cream - now that's a pretty model. Imagine that with a nice DeShields finish  Cheesy
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FF Bruce
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2013, 06:40:18 PM »

That would be cool,but you do need to be careful of open structure wings with a Rossi, please don't ask how I know.You also right about model pic's that's how I ended up with a Monks model.It is very much like a sub fin model from the 60's but has a much preferred rear rudder.Also very easy to build.  Maybe the Jaysbird's thick wing could handle a Nelson,that is just scary.There are many that build as good as Bob but no one can finish one like he can.
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flydean1
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2013, 11:41:41 PM »

Bruce, where did you get the plan for your Monks model?
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FF Bruce
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2013, 12:20:27 AM »

The 1957-58 Zaic year book
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john thompson
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2013, 04:59:24 AM »

A few comments from the Uk on this subject may interest.Using an " how High " altimetre the following results were obtained . The accuracy is indicative as it is almost impossible to get accurate motor runs or what the air is like , as both can affect the results .Over here we use 12 secs runs for Classic 50's models so the results have been extrapolated to the 15 secs used then and now for USA vintage FAI.V Trails green torp 15 570f , LL (1960) O tigre  574f ,Raketa OT 615f , Crescendo Max 3  695f, Creep Elfin249 beam 713f ,S Stick 1960 OT 600f ,LL Max3 588f , . These models will hold the pattern for 15 secs . Other models but only good for 12 secs . Dixie OS 10 nelson head 650f 11secs ,Jays nelsons 15 1000f 12 secs , SLOP big mig15 588f 9.5 secs.
In general moving from 500 to 750 g  knocks about 100/125 feet from 12 secs climb , the glide seems little affected just faster , as best as I can tell .The Nelson runs on APC 7x4 24/25 k . OS max Master 8x3 , with the OTigre using Bolly 8.5/4 .
My conclusion in general is that all the well known 50's models are about on a par with each other , with the final result dependant on the engine . This is one of the reasons the the UK allows the use of any engine in these classes to prevent cheque book modelling by acquiring reworked hot motors . For example an OS LA 15 is about as good as reworked Max 3 , of course one could argue for ever on this point .
John

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john thompson
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« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2013, 05:17:26 AM »

Some further items may interest . I also have JAi/Fai and other models using Nelsons and other hot motors that use the low pylon lots of downthrust , these models are reliable for handling high power . This set up requires a vertical launch ,anything less, if it does not result in a crash goes flat at about 30 feet screaming across Beaulieu, which frightens the horses let alone the spectators.
It is my belief, that down thrust on any layout helps to make launching more reliable. Remember here in the Uk normal days are 10 mph winds with competition days of course being nearer to 20 !
Yesterday on Salisbury Plain a comp was held for the first Dixielander George Fuller Memorial Trophy  . Peter Watson won with a fly off of some 4 mins odd with myself second a few seconds behind . The day was 5/10mph , Daniel Chilton ( 3rd step in the Chilton Power dynasty ) did the retrieving for me ( wonderful ,Thanks Dan ) as the vast up's and down's  on the Plain would I think have defeated me . I first met George 60 years and 1 month ago at the World Champs in 53 .
The Trophy , made by David Greaves carved from marble in the shape of a Dixie pylon, was presented by George's daughter .
John
 
 
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glidermaster
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 03:00:15 PM »

Very interesting stuff, John - that implies a lot of flying.

Research time!
I've got most of a Monks No.5 plan done, and all of a '69 Baumann winner.
Previously I have drawn up Orbiteer and Condorian, although I've never actually detailed out these plans.
I scanned this Savini picture a long time ago - nice looking model, but if you look at the plan, there's an awful lot of wood in it.
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RobinB
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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2013, 05:34:32 PM »

Frank Zaic must have had a strong feeling of 'deja vu' drawing 3-views of the Jai-Fai,
Condorian and Orbiteer for the same year book  Smiley

Robin
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glidermaster
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 11:32:35 AM »

Hmmmm, I don't have that Yearbook.

I just pulled the collection of G15 bits out of the engine box, and I have parts to build 2 more..........

..............which makes 7............

...........although one isn't mine.

.....as Ployd says, So I collect engines, what's your problem?
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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2013, 09:03:33 PM »

John B. they are in the 1964-65 yearbook.
 
John T. thank you for the info. you Brits are a hardy bunch,with your weather I think I'd be playing darts instead of free flight if I lived there.
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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2013, 02:51:22 AM »

Bruce

We do that as well Wink
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glidermaster
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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2013, 10:58:23 AM »

It's not always bad, Bruce, I was there on Salisbury Plain when Phil Ball did a 28 minute fly-off flight in unlimited rubber, that flew, what? less than a mile.
...and didn't Roger Bellamy do a 55 minute fly-off at Merryfield, also in unlimited rubber, in about '95?

.....that's 2 calm days in less than 12 years.  Cheesy

Mind you, I also flew in a team trials at Sculthorpe where we cleared a 9,000 ft runway in 3 minutes - and no motorbikes allowed.
.......and I've played a game or 2 of darts.
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glidermaster
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« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2014, 11:03:36 AM »

This thread didn't generate as much discussion as I would have liked, but here's an interesting FAI model.
My good friend Nigel Tarvin is enjoying a bit of free flight again, and he's chosen Salt Lake City Sadie for Vintage FAI.
Nigel is a master craftsman (and I am guilty of considerable understatement here).
OS Max III for power, and I can't wait to see this model in the air.

John

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billdennis747
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« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2014, 11:39:20 AM »

John, I was trying to think what that fuselage structure reminded me of, and it's the FF scale Blackburn 1912 Monoplane! Slightly different performance though.
Bill
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« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2014, 01:35:00 PM »

Those bones look awfully familiar!  I've had one framed up for years intending a Torp .19.  It screams to be dressed in silk but the work has put me off and now Aerogloss is no longer the good stuff.  I guess I'm looking for some sort of absolution to use something else so that I can get it in the air.  Thoughts?
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glidermaster
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« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2014, 02:03:47 PM »

Bill, you're right - the scale fliers eye never sleeps - even when looking at f/f duration models  Cheesy

newg4ff, I am not entirely sure what you mean by 'Aerogloss is no longer the good stuff.....' - I just bought some Aerogloss, and thinner - admittedly it is expensive, and only available (it seems) in 3.5oz. jars, but I found a mail order supplier, and bought a small job lot which cut the price a bit.
Anyway, Polyspan is the new favourite covering medium. It is applied in the time honoured way using dope and thinner, but it is  shrunk using heat, not water. After that it is doped etc in the usual way. Adding coloured lightweight Esakitrim using  thinner produces a very pleasing finish. Polyspan is only available (so far as I know) in white - available at http://www.modelresearchlabs.com/pricelist.htm
It may be possible to dye it.
John
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« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2014, 02:13:47 PM »

John

Many thanks for posting the 'Sadie' photo. Despite the Blackburn monoplane association I love the looks - HTL, triangular fus and as icing on the cake - twin fins no less, luvverly jubbly. Probably a bit big for me at present, but in my minds eye I can see it shrunk to 36" for an idiosyncratic E36. It's on Outerzone as well!

Cheers

Peter
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« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2014, 05:13:57 PM »

I like polyester tissue - unless my concentration wavers and I put it on upside down, whereupon it assumes the doped finish of a badly-shaved pig.
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« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2014, 06:35:29 PM »

I like polyester tissue - unless my concentration wavers and I put it on upside down, whereupon it assumes the doped finish of a badly-shaved pig.


.....that conjures up a rather horrible mental image.....;-)

 ChrisM
 'ffkiwi'

(just to keep on topic-there's a Jaysbird in the wardrobe awaiting an Oliver, and a Pulteri plan quietly rising (a bit like marsh gas!) up the build soon list. Best win was getting my hands on one of those lovely ST G15  machined radial mount pans that crop up so rarely-now my G15s can get a proper home...though it would look the best on front of a 'Gambrinus'. Something I haven't seen mentioned here yet is our very own ('own' in the context of NZ) John Sheppard's 'Gloworm'-the original of which still exists and I've seen flying. I once had the pleasure (at one of the Omarama World cup events) of introducing Verbitski to John Sheppard-both were mutually delighted to meet, having admired each others work for years. I've always thought the 'Gloworm' to be the most aesthetically attractive of the Cranfield 5-but it is a bit light in the spar department-though this could be easily addressed with a bit of carbon reinforcement on the existing wood sizes...there is nothing specifically NZ in the design though (unless you count the kiwi logo!)-John was living in the UK at the time, and hanging out with Vic Jays, Mike Gaster and that crowd, so 'Gloworm' represents a typical Surbiton FAI Power design style for the era
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« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2014, 07:59:43 PM »

Agree Chris -  Gloworm is a lovely airplane.

Pulteri  ...  no personal experience but perhaps that, years ago, I have seen examples being flown by others and was not too impressed by them.    That could, of course, be a reflection upon the flyers rather than the design
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