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Author Topic: Design a New Outdoor Event Discussion  (Read 9180 times)
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Sundance12
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« on: March 04, 2008, 03:59:39 PM »

For some time I have been wanting to do and event and perhaps it is now. I need some help from the group and want to start from the beginning. If we can agree on some design rules the I would like to work up a postal competition if possible.

I will begin by saying that the power for this class will be a 20 inch length of 1/8 tan or sport tan rubber. I have no idea what that should weight but I would request that restriction. What airplanes come out of this I don't know.

The hope is to find a way to engage people in a bit of design development. I would ask others reading this to add any design restrictions to this message and perhaps over some talk we can stabilize a event or design class.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks

Sundance12

« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 04:27:34 PM by Sundance12 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2008, 04:57:14 PM »

Hi Sundance,

I like your idea. I've thought about this kind of thing a little as well. I always thought it'd be interesting to restrict the wing area (similar to Embryo) and then leave the design open enough that the builder could make an airframe of any configurations (Omitting Stick or profile fuselages ) as long as he has 100 sq in. (just an example) wing area including horiz. stab. That would allow for bipes, tandems, high winged, delta winged etc.

The guys that I fly indoor with, use a 15% motor rule for their outdoor contests. That could be a way to level field?

A while back, the guys on SFA were going to have a similar type "fun" event that required a pilot bust in the plane.I thought that was a fun idea.

IMHO, there is a lot of potential with these kind of ideas. It would allow guys to push the idea in different directions and possible design something that needs to be beat the next year with a new design.
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2008, 06:16:33 PM »

The motor restriction sounds interesting. Restrict either the mass and weight and you could have it. Also, do you want ROG, cabin, etc? Limitations on materials? All things to think about. Just let me know when you're done and I'll build something for it.
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2008, 06:20:22 PM »

Sounds like fun! The only problem I'd have, well speaking hypothetically the only one, is I can't get much of anything to fly on 1 loop of 1/8"! Tongue The Guillows Sky Streak doesn't count. But I'd be game to try.

Doug
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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2008, 06:40:03 PM »

Hmm .. Doug ... a 10" loop of 1/8th is only a little lighter than a 15" loop of 3/32, though obviously it wouldn't take as many turns .. but on the 3/32 this 10" monster would do over two minutes almost any time .. the only trouble is that a d/t isn't practical (too much weight!) so lifespan is potentially short. I think it might handle the short powerful motor well enough
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Sundance12
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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2008, 07:04:23 PM »

Gee applehoney, you got one already? I am grinning, you took all the fun right out of it...
Ok, we will enter that into the discussion and see what comes up. So is the motor choice too restrictive? Anyway I will read all the posts in a little while and see what we come up with.

Cool

Cheers

Enter that plan into the plans gallery Jim if you could I will make a heading for it there shortly.

Cheers

Bruce
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2008, 07:15:47 PM »

Bruce, a couple things. One, the loop could be doubled up, and two, we could just restrict the motor weight instead if desired. That said, when you do so, it's getting very similar to a P-20, which has already been explored and never gained popularity.
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2008, 07:35:52 PM »

Bruce, I HAD one. Two, actually, the other was 12" - both built for small event Postals, one from England (12") the other from the Phlilippines some years ago. The larger one was lost 3rd flight before even a score, the smaller lasted a little longer.
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2008, 08:14:52 PM »

Applehoney, that is a sweet one bladed prop!

As for maxout's warning about the suggested new outdoor event being like P20, I think he is right. I like P-20 and have built two of them. The problem with P20 is that it is too close to P30. If the new event allowed any type of prop, including a one blader, then you would break the P20 mode.

How about just limiting the rubber and making it enclosed? Wings covered on both sides and that's it. If you do limit the rubber, I would suggest just making a weight limit like (?) grams then the designer can use it anyway they want.

Just some ideas

Derek
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2008, 08:18:34 PM »

Bruce; No need to change the motor size. It's just me. Course I haven't built many non-scale models, and my peanuts usually wind up too heavy to fly on a loop of 1/8. So this would be a real adventure for me, and I already have thoughts that probably won't work but will be fun to experiment with. All very hush hush at the moment.

Doug
p.s. Thanks Jim, it's a cute little feller. Bet Julio would like it.
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2008, 08:45:53 PM »

p.s. Thanks Jim, it's a cute little feller. Bet Julio would like it.


I do! Looks simple and affordable to my level of skills. Let`s see how this thread goes on. I'm interested!

Julio
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2008, 08:51:07 PM »

How about just limiting the rubber and making it enclosed? Wings covered on both sides and that's it. If you do limit the rubber, I would suggest just making a weight limit like (?) grams then the designer can use it anyway they want.

Watch out! With rules like that, I'm liable to scale down my unlimited.
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Sundance12
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2008, 11:55:21 PM »

Ok some good discussion and when I made the suggestion of a fixed motor length I was expecting some good points to follow.

1. 20 inch Length of 1/8th tan rubber, 2 Strands no double ups.

2. Fixed Wing Area

3. 15% Motor Rule (15% of wing area)

4. Extras, cockpit or cabin,

5. Restricted Airframe Mass or Weight

6. Fixed Aspect Ratio at 6:1

7. Enclosed Rubber

8. Double covered wings

9. Restricted rubber mass (open design with no other restrictions)

Perhaps a few more in there, keep the thinking caps on for a little while and we will get as many opinions as possible. I want to thank everyone for making a point or their opinion known. Seems we have a interesting topic going. we are getting closer to some basic specifications. Perhaps someone has an idea for a particular mission that this design could fulfill, this may begin to narrow the criteria and direct the design a bit more.

Cheers

Sundance12
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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2008, 07:42:42 AM »

I'm going to throw in my thoughts now for what I'd do if I were designing the rules and had a model in mind (which I do and y'all would give me funny looks if you knew).

1. Motor restricted to 20" loop of 1/8" (we could also just do 3 grams, but that would put beginners at a disadvantage because of optimization issues and rubber strippers).

2. Motor must be enclosed.

3. Apply either a minimum weight of 8-10 g or a maximum wing area, or just leave it wide open.

Requiring double covering accomplishes nothing. I'd be likely to do it anyway for outdoor flying. Restricting covering material works, but I was kinda hoping to do the plastic routine. We could also limit performance by requiring freewheeling props, but that may be unpopular with some (and I happen to like SBF's). Applehoney would yell at me, but I'm in favor of ROG.

We also need to consider flying rules. We could do 3 flights to a 90 second max with 30 sec increments thereafter (I'd go with 120 sec max, but some members probably have rather small fields), or we could do 5 flights, no max, throwing away longest and shortest. Or some other scheme involving prime numbers or pi... Grin
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Sundance12
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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2008, 09:14:25 AM »

Hi Maxout:

In double covering I meant double surface wings. Covering on top and covering on bottom, I was not suggesting doubling the thickness of the material. no wings with the bottom surface uncovered, that's out.

Interesting ideas so far, I will get back to this later today... Keep going everyone, we are getting some focus... All opinions are welcome.

Sundance12
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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2008, 10:01:46 AM »

I kinda like the idea of a minimum of rules. Maybe you need more to keep it directed, don't know, but if you want experimentation, then-
1. A 20" strip of 1/8" rubber.
2. Motor must be enclosed.

And if you think maybe-
3. Must have built up tissue covered wings

Doug
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2008, 11:31:37 AM »

Maxout, I would love to see a scaled down unlimited!.

 If the rules are the following:

1. 20" strip of 1/8 rubber or equivalent (40" of 1/16)
2. enclosed motor
3. built up covered wings (not limited to tissue, 1/4 mil. mylar should be an option, or condenser paper)

4. three rounds at 90 sec max

And for fun:

5. one round must ROG or VTO (this would make it very interesting! Extra small mini-moffit anyone?)
6. Flyoff rounds are 90 seconds. Tape on a penny for each flyoff as you make them. 2nd flyoff=2 pennies, 3rd flyoff=3 pennies. Kind of like a mini payload event so they stay on a small field.

A pussycat would work as well as a P20 style plane. And a scaled down unlimited. Part of the fun is to see what we come up with.

Personally, I see this as a small field advanced model. We have several good beginner type categories available already. What we do not have is a good small field, small plane advanced type. You can keep the plane simple or let it rip. I would love to see what Maxout would come up with to VTO a plane with a 3 gram motor. Can it be done? An make a 90 sec. max?

The creative juices are flowing. Let's here what you think!

Derek
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2008, 11:54:42 AM »

You can keep the plane simple or let it rip. I would love to see what Maxout would come up with to VTO a plane with a 3 gram motor. Can it be done? An make a 90 sec. max?

Bring it on!

VTO will be easy until the pennies get loaded on. I'm anticipating an airframe weight of 5 grams or so at this point. Probably a single spar with with boron or carbon reinforcing, folding prop, VTO pegs, and the whole 9 yards. Should work ok for an 18-20" span aircraft.
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Sundance12
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2008, 02:10:42 PM »

What seems to be developing is this, and I like what I am reading.

1. 20" strip of 1/8 rubber or equivalent (40" of 1/16)
2. Enclosed motor.
3. built up covered wings limited to tissue, 1/4 mil. mylar an option,
4. Minimum weight not less than 10 grams.
4. Three rounds at 90 sec max.

And for fun:

5. one round must ROG or VTO (this would make it very interesting! Extra small mini-moffit anyone?)
6. Flyoff rounds are 90 seconds. Tape on a penny for each flyoff as you make them. 2nd flyoff=2 pennies, 3rd flyoff=3 pennies.

Kind of like a mini payload event so they stay on a small field. I like the fact that models can be flown in smaller spaces and the fact that max are not too high. I also like the fact that a person can have little invested in the design and not be afraid of loosing it to a thermal, just build another.

Lets see how that flies for the next little while.

None of this is cast in stone yet....
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2008, 07:22:14 PM »

Personally I would drop the minimum weight. Either have no weight requirement or make it 5 grams. A rubber to weight ratio of 3/5 is a very powerful, challenging and exciting airplane. Nothing like horsepower to raise the excitement level!

Derek
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Sundance12
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2008, 08:40:04 PM »

Hip Pocket Design Class

Ok I have decided to try the weight limit to None... I really bounced back and forth on this specification and then went back to 10 then went to nothing... Since the airplanes class is quite small, a weight limit would limit options in design. I am sure I wont be able to build less than 10 grams that well so if you can, give it a try. I will work to design for glide and moderate climb by managing aspect ratio. I know Maxout likes this style as well. I need more info in spec #5 to work out how to ROG with no landing gear...

So what is this going to be called?

1. 20" strip of 1/8 rubber or equivalent (40" of 1/16)
2. Enclosed motor.
3. Built up covered wings limited to tissue, 1/4 mil. mylar an option,
4. Three rounds at 90 sec max.

And for fun:

5. One round must ROG or VTO (this would make it very interesting! Extra small mini-moffit anyone?)
6. Flyoff rounds are 90 seconds. Tape on a penny for each flyoff as you make them. 2nd flyoff=2 pennies, 3rd flyoff=3 pennies.

Shall I cast these specifications to Stone now?

Cheers

Bruce
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2008, 09:46:34 PM »

Looks good to me! As to rog without landing gear you use a stick or wire that is attached to the fuselage about where the landing gear would go. It uses a small rubber band to pull it back against the fuselage as it leaps into the air. The other two points of contact with the ground involve the stab, or some kind of sub rudder.Many Nostalgia Wakefields and Moffits are built his way. I'll try to find a picture.

Maxout has a picture of an Embryo that he built like that before FAC changed the rules to outlaw it, at least I seem to remember something along those lines.

By the way most of the ROG and VTO launches are done from a table. That extra 30 inches can save your model!

Derek
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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2008, 09:54:51 PM »

Ok I understand, I will make ROG an optional requirement for extra points however in an event like this I suppose there is no other way to verify someone did an ROG other than a quick video flight.

Ok I will do a bit more homework on an event and prepare an Operational Order for some kind of build-off to these specifications and I will set a time frame for the program. It will all be spelled out in the Op Order.
I have enjoyed these discussions, it did not take long for a procedure to be established from my initial post.

Go ahead and see what can be built for those who care to join.

Cheers

Sundance12
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« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2008, 09:57:19 PM »

Maxout has a picture of an Embryo that he built like that before FAC changed the rules to outlaw it, at least I seem to remember something along those lines.

I did have such a thing until I was enlightened as to how much the FAC would hate it.

By the way most of the ROG and VTO launches are done from a table. That extra 30 inches can save your model!

Nah, get a nice hot model and it'll take off from most any surface. Retracts with long legs will let you take off from grass. When at the KOI over New Year's, I was just letting my embryo and OT cabin models take off from the road. The FAC changed to rules so that a table is no longer mandated, so I made use of that. Hey, the table was at the other end of the flightline--didn't feel like walking that far!
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« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2008, 10:31:24 AM »

Ok, so when will this postal take place? I'm pretty much ready to start building. One question though...rule 3: I presume we are not going to mandate double covered surfaces? Also, I unfortunately don't have any 1/4 mil mylar on hand; am planning to either use light tissue or something, but the question of whether we should even limit covering comes to mind. So...when it's decided, I'll finalize my design.

Oh, for flying format, can we make multiple entries? I'm thinking of making a preliminary attempt with an embryo just to see what it can do.
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