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Author Topic: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!  (Read 21451 times)
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Jimmy JFlyer
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« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2014, 10:13:56 PM »

Kang, thanks for that link. I have to admit, I am so new to this that I haven't gotten to reading all those articles from that site yet, though I certainly intend to as soon as I can. I see this one focuses on Colick's Hobby Shopper EZB that I have read so much about on the forum. Next thing you know I wont be able to resist building that one too!

Larry, I just can't wait to hear how that wide chord Micro flies!

Jimmy
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Jimmy JFlyer
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2014, 05:48:34 PM »

Hey Larry,
Have you had a chance to get the new wide chord micro in the air yet? I am quite anxious to hear how that thing does. I will be placing my A2Z order in the next night or so and I figure a mini-stick will be my first build since I can at least fly one of those right away. I plan on doing an LPP too but don't have an indoor place to fly atm other than the oddball chance at church. So I might as well build what I can readily fly first.

Regards,
Jimmy
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Flyguy
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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2014, 11:45:51 PM »

Hi Jimmy, yes I've had some test flights with the new chord, but I need more time to investigate, it's complex. For ex., the 2.5" chord means I'm back to square one with respect to prop/rubber combinations, so I need some time to examine this. It does show some impressive slow flying, but it's trickier to trim. I'm also still flying the original. At this point I have 5" props with pitches of 8", 8.5", 9", 9.5", 10", 10.5", 11" and 11.5". The 11.5" gives a 2.3 P/D ratio, which is the highest I've seen, but I'm really leaning towards this pitch at this point for the 2" chord, it has an impressive slow climb and cruise, I think I can get to 3 min no-touch with that prop, but we'll see.

It's been harder to living room fly lately because the heat is on with the cooler temps, and so its a lot more turbulent in the living room, and there's more drift. On days when its warmer out and the heat isn't on its calmer! So the outdoor weather still affects indoor LR flying. Also, you don't often get flights without hitting something, so I estimate the time per loop during cruise and then just count the number of loops during climb and cruise, my point being that you still get some information even with only limited living room flying. And even with drift it often still cruises around for a good minute or more before hitting anything anyway, which is neat.

I'm not sure anymore there are any simple conclusions, it looks like there might be multiple strategies that can work, that's probably why you still see different designs and approaches after decades. Once you get it fine tuned, the differences are very small and it gets complex because there are a lot of tradeoffs. For ex, I'm still not sure about flare versus pitch options in Cat I but I'll post my observations later when I get more info, perhaps others will weigh in.

My recommendation is simply to build the original micro, it's more stable and fun to fly. I've built 3 of them so far and have only had to adjust the wing incidence; you should be cruising around the living room in no time. I've played with the blade shape/size as well, but the original still seems best so far, can get an easy 2 min up to 3 min (with some lucky ceiling scrubbing) with the 9" or 10" pitch.

Enjoy the A2Z order, I think getting the rubber and some wood will cover you for a bunch of planes. I always enjoy getting supplies in orders, its a treat. I also don't have a regular good space to fly in, my poor mini sticks have been mostly sitting in the box, while my micros are up and flying all the time, I don't even bother to put them away anymore, the picture shows them ready to go at a moments notice on my TV! But even in larger spaces, like 20 sq. ft. with an 18 ft. ceiling, I seem to be flying the micros, not the minis. I think the minis need a gym.

One idea I've had lately is that squash courts seem to be a good flying space for the micro - the rooms are generally around 20 sq feet with an 18 foot ceiling, and the walls and ceiling are smooth so there's nothing to hang onto. Squash-court competition? Will give it a try when I get a chance. I expect to see pictures of your build Jimmy, and flying reports!
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Jimmy JFlyer
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« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2014, 02:32:44 PM »

Hey Larry,
Thanks for the update. I will certainly just build the original Micro. Then only issue I still have is knowing how to set pitch into the prop. I am ordering A2Z's pitch gauge as I know that will benefit me quite a bit. I could build one too but then it is bad enough not understanding pitch, let alone building something to help with what I have non clue on. Seems like a good investment.
I can't wait to get wood & rubber from A2Z. I am getting some basic tools/needs too like glue bottle & needle caps, the thrust bearings, and odds & ends.

I know what you mean about the heat. I sent my Butterfly for a flight forgetting the little space heater was cranking full blast. What a ride that was! lol!

I'll post pics for sure. Lord willing maybe a vid of it hopefully flying at least as good as yours does. (just gotta figure out setting prop pitch)

I need a scale too. I will go for super light as that has always been mu building style and I have gotten pretty good using Duco thinned with Acetone. Should be fun. Can't wait to get started!

Thanks again for all the advice and sharing your great adventure with your creations. It's a great help and fun to read about.

Regards,
Jimmy
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Jimmy JFlyer
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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2014, 03:47:00 PM »

I am still trying to wrap my mind around the prop.
..."Set blade angle at 45* at 1 7/16."... is on the plans. Is that 45* in relation to the blade at the opposite end? and I am clueless about "at 1 7/16."

So far I am really grasping these builds and the techniques involved, but still remain solidly in a stupor about this part. I can't wait to get Ron William's book. But it will be a while before I do. Would you be able to put this into laments terms?  Roll Eyes  Grin

Thx!
Jimmy
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mkirda
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« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2014, 08:45:57 PM »

I am still trying to wrap my mind around the prop.
..."Set blade angle at 45* at 1 7/16."... is on the plans. Is that 45* in relation to the blade at the opposite end? and I am clueless about "at 1 7/16."

Thx!
Jimmy

At a 1 7/16" radius from the prop center, the prop angle should be 45 degrees. Set one, then rotate and set the other blade.

Mike
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Jimmy JFlyer
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« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2014, 09:22:20 PM »

Thanks for the explanation Mike. So looking at this step... this would be after adding shape to the blade such as from a prop block or a cylinder right? I grabbed my Ikara 6"er from my Butterfly and I see how if I laid it shaft down against a surface held at 45* it would only be touching both at the LE & TE at a specific point on the blade and nowhere else if I moved that surface inward or outward from that point. Is that right? I am dying to see a vid of someone doing this process.

Lord willing maybe a vid of it hopefully flying at least as good as yours does. (just gotta figure out setting prop pitch)

Correction on this comment, what I meant was hopefully it will fly at least HALF as good as yours does Larry.  Wink

Jimmy
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Flyguy
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« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2014, 10:12:08 PM »

Hey Jimmy, if you look at my initial post, the last photo shows the setup where I use the Nolan prop jig - you can see that the prop blade is placed at a 45 degree angle at about 1 7/16" from the center shaft, exactly as Mike said. This is of course after you nuke it on the jar to get the curvature. The Jim Jones pitch gauge, first photo attached, does a similar thing, except the center of the prop is at 45 and then you move that 1 7/16 (its magnetic) so that the blade is horizontal at that radius. I'm sure you can find it elsewhere but the formula is pitch = 2 x pi x radius x tan theta, where pi is 3.14159 and radius is the distance from the center you are solving for, theta is the blade angle. tan 45 = 1, so that just drops out and so for 2 x 3.14159 x 1 7/16 x 1 = 9.03 so you get about a 9" pitch. Just solve for the radius to get any other desired pitch.

However, I just realized that the A2Z jig, which is great and is what you are getting, does it by fixing the radius to 2" (or 4" or 6", but 2" for minis or micros) and then you can precisely determine the blade angle needed at this distance for a desired pitch. In that case, you would set the blade angle at about 35.6 degrees at 2" to get about a 9" pitch (the A2Z jig shows that 36 gives a 9.1 pitch). The second photo shows the A2Z jig, the prop in the photo has an angle of about 33 degrees at 2", and if you look at the number right next to 33 on the base it's 8.2, so the prop has about an 8.2" pitch. The nice thing about the A2Z scale is that you don't have to do any calculations because all the pitches are given for each angle right on the scale. It's my favorite scale to accurately check pitch, even though I still use the Nolan jig when building. It's a little delicate so I like to leave it at home; the Jones Jig is good for the toolbox because it's indestructible.

With some rubber, wood, ultrafilm, the pitch gauge, some .01 wire, thrust bearings, and Teflon washers, you should be good to go for a bunch of planes. PS - I actually like the A2Z sixpack dual bearings the best, you can bend them so that its a little shorter and the arms are longer and so it clears the shaft nicely that way. Good luck!
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Jimmy JFlyer
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« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2014, 11:13:12 PM »

Larry, thanks so much for the pics and your explanation. I can't to wait to get that pitch gauge and put it to use. For now for the blade shape I will be doing the cylinder thing until I research enough to understand how to cut & carve prop blocks.
Your pics are great. Now I can see that gauge in use and better understand how it is used. Between you & Mike I am finally starting to get a grasp on prop assembly.

Thanks again to both of you for all the help!

PS... Larry, A2Z has the size sheet A/B balsa you mentioned in various weights, from 3 to 7#. What weight would you recommend? C they are out of stock.

Regards,
Jimmy

« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 11:30:33 PM by Jimmy JFlyer » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2014, 11:39:48 PM »

Thanks, you know what they say about pictures. Its a tough call on the blades, I'm a little conservative (don't like to use too low density) so I usually ask for the 4-6 pound range, but take whatever I can get!
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« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2014, 11:54:50 PM »

Oops, I see you were asking about the A/B wood, but there again I usually go for around 5# on that, if you read the Coslick article, you'll see he generally uses in the 4-6# range for his EZB, some other plans also have the densities on them.
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Jimmy JFlyer
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« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2014, 10:27:48 AM »

Hello Larry,
I finally got my wood & supplies. woo hoo! I will be building this guy & an LPP.

I am looking at the prop spar info on various posts here & the plans. It looks like you start out with .062 (1/16?)and just sand it down to .050 then tapered at the ends. Looking at .050 translating to 1/20, would it be ok to just start with cutting it from 1/20 C sheet? Or should I start with the thicker wood & sand it down to get to that size?

Thanks!
Jimmy
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« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2014, 11:04:42 AM »

FWIW - I've been using an A2Z pitch gauge for many years. One problem that I've had is that the wood piece with the prop holder was able to rock from side to side a good bit. Since I use the device to set pitch AND tracking this made the pitch setting less accurate than desirable and the tracking setting very difficult.

The fix was very simple and probably took about 5 minutes. On the prop holder end of the plastic base there are 3 holes but the middle one is not used for the locating pins. I assembled the gauge and then drilled thru the middle hole into the wood part of the prop holder. I threaded an M10 flat head screw into the drilled hole. I chamfered the hole on the bottom of the base so the screw head didn't protrude.

When I use the gauge I put the screw in and tighten it enough to make the prop holder rigid.

You could do the same thing with the other end of the gauge but that end is much less critical than the end that holds the prop.

I destroyed the original metal prop holder some years ago. The one shown in the picture is an IMS prop holder that's about 15 years old.
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« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2014, 01:53:27 PM »

Hey Jimmy, now that you received the supplies you should be in building heaven!

WRT the spars - if you start with .050, then by the time you round it I think it will be inevitably smaller (though I've been using .045 spars lately, so you could go that route), that's why I start with the 1/16 (.0625). If you use the sanding blocks, it only takes a few strokes to get it down to .050, in fact I've overdone it a few times with the wingposts (they ended up smaller than 1/32).

Olbill - nice solution for the pitch gauge. That's strange about the rocking, I have two of them (home and toolbox) and have had exactly the opposite problem - they are incredibly tight so once you get them in and seated properly they are very hard to remove. That's led to two problems - the pins pull out when you remove it (easy fix with some CA), and in one case I actually cracked the wood trying to get the holder out! So now I'm very careful if I have to remove them - I push the pins from the bottom so as not to stress the holders. I also tried leaving it assembled in the toolbox, but that looks like a good way to end up breaking the pointer.
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« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2014, 02:08:54 PM »

Yep - I wouldn't want to chance leaving mine put together.

I've had mine so long that the rocking problem may just be from years of wear and tear.
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Jimmy JFlyer
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« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2014, 02:46:52 PM »

Thx for the tip on the pitch gauge Bill. I will be getting mine out of the bag for the first time tonight after I get the kids settled into bed. Can't wait to check it out.

Larry, thx for the info on the spars. I have both 1/16 & 1/20. I can't believe how little that would be to be used as a prop spar. This small light weight stuff amazes me. I about fell over when I saw how small the bearings are! I think starting bigger is better so I don't end up too flimsy. Though even at 1/16 it just seems like it would be too flimsy to someone who doesn't know. I would use C grain for the spar right? As it is stiffer... ?

Thanks for the help guys.
Jimmy

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Flyguy
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« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2014, 03:21:24 PM »

Olbill - I've also had mine for a few decades, but never took it apart that much (since it was a hassle anyway) except to change from mini to EZB. Thanks for the warning about what will happen when it wears too much! Since I have two of them, now I'm thinking of just leaving one set for mini and the other for EZB (which I'm not building right now anyway) so I don't have to keep pulling out the holders.

Now that you got me thinking about this, I have an idea about how to modify the Jim Jones gauge. The nice part about the Jones gauge is that its steel and heavy plastic and is indestructible, so it's actually the one I've had in my toolbox. It has a magnetic 45, really clever of Jim, so you can position it or take it off easily, its in a photo I posted earlier. The only part I never liked about it is that the prop shaft is on the 45 and there's some wiggle that way. But now that I think about it, it should be an easy modification to use a prop holder on the vertical part, like on the A2Z gauge, and then you just have a movable 45, I could mark the pitch locations on the base. I'll post pictures when I get around to doing it, but I think that would make a great, easy to take apart and indestructible tool box pitch gauge! Yes I know I'm being overly cautious but I'm a little obsessive about keeping my tools in good shape.

Jimmy - no, you want to use A/B grain for the prop spar, you want it to be able to flex without breaking, the C is only used for the ribs and the prop blades. I'd go for starting with the 1/16" sq., then get some practice rounding that. It's actually pretty easy with the blocks, I've also done the twirling in-between sandpaper approach, but I frequently broke them when they got small, like 1/32", but that has never happened with the blocks, and its incredibly easy to do tapers.
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Jimmy JFlyer
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« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2014, 04:10:15 PM »

Ah, thanks for the clarification on the spar Larry. That makes sense.
I am thinking I will start practicing making props for my free time tonight.

Jimmy
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« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2014, 08:12:02 PM »

I modified my A2Z pitch gauge by routing a 0.020" deep by 0.5" wide slot down the middle.  I glued a steel strip into the slot (actually a 0.020" K&S 0.500" wide stainless, but magnetic, strip).  Then I glued small neodymium magnets to the bottom of prop holder and gauge holder (in holes I drilled in the wood).  This makes for a steady fixture that can quickly and easily be taken apart.  A picture is attached.  I also built a longer base piece out of a piece of oak so that I could measure at more than a 6" radius.  And, I drilled the locating (or additional holes in the original A2Z base) at 1" intervals for more measuring distances.

I like the spring prop shaft holder.  Some have removed this spring holder and glued a small neodymium magnet between the "V's" to hold the prop shaft.  This works well as long as one uses shims to make sure the magnet surface is level with a line through the bottom of the "V's" so that the prop shaft still is held by the "V's" but does not bend in touching the magnet.

Jeff Hood made great semi-copy of the A2Z pitch gauge but used magnet strips alone, with no locating holes to have an infinite number of measuring stations.  His gauge folds up nicely to fit in a small box made from the base.  I just use a plastic pencil box I bought for $1 at the school supplies section of a dollar store.

LeoP
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« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2014, 09:24:50 PM »

Now that's cool! I really like your modification LeoP, it adds the magnetic simplicity of the Jones approach and makes it much more portable, the next time I break the holder I think I'll try your modification (though I'd have to get a router), nice idea. I'm still going to modify the Jones gauge since I have it anyway, might as well use it, let's see how it works. I also like the spring shaft holder, it works great, in fact I'm going to get another one to use for the modified Jones gauge. I also have a nice compact box that the Jones gauge just fits into, so its good for the toolbox. But adding the magnets definitely solves the portability problem for the A2Z!
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Jimmy JFlyer
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« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2014, 11:57:53 PM »

Very interesting stuff on the gauges guys.

Larry, I went to the LHS today as they always had a good selection of wire. But the smallest they had was .015. I see it is .008 on the plan for the prop shaft. This is almost twice that. Do you think that amount of weight will make that much difference in its flight? I plan on hitting target weights on everything else, maybe even try to better them if possible. I spent the rest of my hobby budget on Ron Williams Indoor book and a winder today so I won't be placing any online orders any time soon. I suppose I could try to get the LHS to order some .008.

But I will just use the .015 if you think it would be OK. Huh

Thx
Jimmy
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« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2014, 08:37:53 AM »

All gauges (sizes) of wire can be bought at a local music store that sells guitar strings.  You want to buy plain steel strings (tin plated is just fine).  These fit either acoustic or electric guitars.  The gauge size (a number) is the same as the diameter in thousandths of an inch.  The strings are made of quality music wire.  Sizes as small as 0.008" are normally available or can be ordered and the sizes go up to at least 022 (0.022").  My local store orders 007 guage for me.

LeoP
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« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2014, 10:02:35 AM »

I missed the pitch gauge discussion by a couple of days, but here's a more parsimonious (my middle name) rig. This cross arrangement is 1/2" high, and should be set up near the edge of the board, as in the second picture. This is so the first blade clears the surface when you set up the second one.

Once you know your blade angle and radius combination (this one was a simple 45º at 50%), mark the radius on the blade and spar with a fine Sharpie dot (both marks are under the rubber clamp, so you can't see them). The blade and spar are then secured to the cross (at the selected radius), the angle template is pinned down and the propshaft is secured to it. This template only has a 45º mark, so far. Apply thinned white glue to both sides of the spar with a fine brush. When dry, set up the other blade.
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Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
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« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2014, 11:58:32 AM »

All gauges (sizes) of wire can be bought at a local music store that sells guitar strings.  You want to buy plain steel strings (tin plated is just fine).  These fit either acoustic or electric guitars.  The gauge size (a number) is the same as the diameter in thousandths of an inch.  The strings are made of quality music wire.  Sizes as small as 0.008" are normally available or can be ordered and the sizes go up to at least 022 (0.022").  My local store orders 007 guage for me.

LeoP

Jimmy,
Leo is correct of course.
Here are two examples. The length will allow you to practice/make many bearings.
Dave
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« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2014, 12:43:55 PM »

Jimmy - I mentioned earlier that I ended up using .010 wire, not .008. Actually I think if you have .015 wire that's fine, it will fit in the thrust bearings you have. If you want to go smaller, then as Leo and Dave mentioned a 10 gauge guitar string is .010", I don't like to go smaller than that, but that's just a personal preference. Remember that we're just talking living room flying here, not the Nats! I wouldn't get too worried about the weight at this point, just keep track of the weights of everything and then you'll know on the next one where it needs to be lightened. Build it the best you can and get flying!
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