Logo
Builders' Plan Gallery  |  Hip Pocket Web Site  |  Contact Forum Admin  |  Contact Global Moderator
November 15, 2019, 07:10:50 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with email, password and session length
 
Home Help Search Login Register
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!  (Read 21455 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355



Ignore
« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2014, 01:10:09 PM »

Thanks for the wire info Leo & Dave. And here all this time I knew it was "music wire". I keep forgetting to just go to the music store.

Larry, I kinda figured I would do just that and build it anyways just being something to goof around with at home. I will be doing an LPP and actually try to do everything to the weights specified as I might give competition a shot at the Indoor Fling in May. That being said I need to get some .020 as that is what is on the plans for the plan I am using.

From my time doing scratch build foamies the smallest I ever got was .015 that I used for my "J-Bug" design. I used it for control rods. I used to think  that would be the smallest MW I would ever touch. Little did I know...  Wink

Art, nice set up, thx for sharing!

Jimmy
Logged
Olbill
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 68
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,552



Ignore
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2014, 01:30:09 PM »

I missed the pitch gauge discussion by a couple of days, but here's a more parsimonious (my middle name) rig. This cross arrangement is 1/2" high, and should be set up near the edge of the board, as in the second picture. This is so the first blade clears the surface when you set up the second one.

Once you know your blade angle and radius combination (this one was a simple 45º at 50%), mark the radius on the blade and spar with a fine Sharpie dot (both marks are under the rubber clamp, so you can't see them). The blade and spar are then secured to the cross (at the selected radius), the angle template is pinned down and the propshaft is secured to it. This template only has a 45º mark, so far. Apply thinned white glue to both sides of the spar with a fine brush. When dry, set up the other blade.

Art
The setup looks nice but since you have a tissue tube hub why wouldn't you build the spar/blade assemblies separately and then put them in the hub? What you're doing makes more sense than trying to make a one piece spar but not quite as much sense as building two separate spar/blade assemblies.
Logged
Art356A
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 34
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,360




Ignore
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2014, 01:49:16 PM »

Ah! All is not as it appears to the naked eye. I was talked out of the poly tubes and bass spars for this project, and into my first attempt at a one-piece balsa spar. Naturally, it broke in handling, and the red thing is a light wrap of Esaki around the repair. So assuming that the spar stays whole, it's a nice working fixture.

Here's a new thing, a replacement for all those heavy bolts that the hamfisted among us knock around and break ribs with. I cut up a bunch of them on the bandsaw, which has a blade with a 1/32 kerf (same as the average hacksaw blade) and then run a piece of scrap 1/32 thru the slot a couple of times to clear the fuzz.
The other thing is a simple clamp to hold the abnormal LE in place.   
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Logged

My arms are so weak, it's like that pushup I did last year was a total waste.
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355



Ignore
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2014, 02:15:20 PM »

Art, looking closely at that pic, is the LE piece (abnormal) flat on the bottom? Meaning a triangular cross section?
Logged
Art356A
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 34
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,360




Ignore
« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2014, 02:49:41 PM »

Naw, it's a square, tipped up 45º. There's an A-6 out there that's specified that way. A little off-putting at first, but that's the way the designer wants it, and it's not that hard to do using the clamps. Make them with a scrap of 1/8 and a square file.   
Logged

My arms are so weak, it's like that pushup I did last year was a total waste.
Olbill
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 68
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,552



Ignore
« Reply #55 on: March 30, 2014, 04:03:32 PM »

The designer has had pretty good luck with those spars!
Logged
Flyguy
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 40
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 797


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2014, 01:41:07 PM »

Finally got around to modifying my Jim Jones torque meter. The original is shown in a photo on the second page above. What I never liked about it is that there is too much play when the prop shaft is on the diagonal, so its tricky to get accurate measurements. I modified it by gluing some bass on the end (with two coats of dope) and using an A2Z prop holder. Jim had distances for pitches from 18 to 36 on the jig, I replaced this with distances from 8 to 36, glued it on, and covered it with a thin piece of shelving plastic. I also made marks for the pitches I'm currently using the most (9 to 15) for both mini and micros. Much more accurate, fairly indestructible, and it fits nicely in my flight box! I'm pretty happy with the modified meter.

The only other thing I'm thinking about is I really like the idea Leo mentioned of using a small magnet to hold the prop shaft. I found some small neodymium magnets about 1/16" thick online, I think that will work, could always file the aluminum a little bit if need be (I never tried filing a magnet?), I guess epoxy might hold the magnet in place, we'll see. If it works I'll be able to easily (one hand instead of two) pop the prop in place, really neat!
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Logged
Art356A
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 34
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,360




Ignore
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2014, 02:26:02 PM »

The designer has had pretty good luck with those spars!

I remember asking him if the rotated spar was an aerodynamic or a structural thing. He said it was aerodynamic. It must be just a side benefit then, but in saveral mid-airs, the other guys always came out second best.
Logged

My arms are so weak, it's like that pushup I did last year was a total waste.
Olbill
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 68
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,552



Ignore
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2014, 11:17:36 PM »

A6 rules specify that all spars are a minimum of 1/16" square. I just have a problem with a 1/16" deep board on the front of the wing. It made more sense to me to have the point of the spar facing forward. It seems to work.
Logged
leop
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 153



Ignore
« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2014, 12:12:48 AM »

Jeff Hood made a great pitch gauge that was an improvement on the Jim Jones and A2Z versions.  It was his idea to use a magnet to hold the prop shaft.  Jeff's old (and now gone) website had a set of pictures and instructions for copying Jeff's pitch gauge.  The article is no longer available but Jeff sent some of the pictures nearly five years ago.  The pictures are below and include some views of the magnet in an A2Z prop shaft holder.

LeoP
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Logged
leop
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 153



Ignore
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2014, 12:14:02 AM »

And here are the last two pictures of Jeff Hodd's pitch gauge.

LeoP
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Logged
Flyguy
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 40
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 797


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2014, 12:56:10 PM »

Wow, really nice pitch gauge, thanks for posting the pictures, it's helpful, I definitely have to try using a magnet to hold the prop shaft. Really nice the way it folds up for transport as well!
Logged
Flyguy
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 40
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 797


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2014, 04:16:07 PM »

I received some magnets today, very cheap at 50 cents each, the one's that are 1/8" round by 1/16" thick work with the prop holder. I glued one with a drop of thick CA on the holder for my Jim Jones gauge and it worked perfectly, the shaft lies all the way in the groove and nice and flat, so I also modified my two A2Z gauges. The holder in one A2Z gauge had slightly deeper v-slots, so I had to file the holder a little bit to lower the magnet slightly, had to do it twice to get it perfect. Before I had to use two hands and, maybe I'm clumsy, but I always caught the hook on the wire hold-down. Now you can easily pop in the props with one hand and easily take them out to rotate. What an improvement, nice idea by Jeff!
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Logged
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355



Ignore
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2014, 11:09:05 PM »

Hey Larry, how goes the Micro-stick R&D?

I am plodding along little by little with my LPP. Quite frankly the build is kicking my butt. But I am getting closer to having my first genuine indoor build under my belt. I am anxious to get to this one. I am bummed that I forgot about getting the .024 when I placed my order so the smallest I have is the 1/32 which I only have in C and then my 1/20 that I have in all grains.

I considered just using the thickness I have, the 1/20 (.050) but I know this would greatly increase weight. Or sand the .050 down to the .024 you recommended.

Do you think the extra weight would be enough to really have an effect?

As I think more about it I am leaning towards sanding it down to the right size, I was just hoping to not add too many steps. With my build time so few & far between, the least amount of steps is tempting.

Your thoughts?

Regards,
Jimmy
Logged
Flyguy
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 40
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 797


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2014, 01:48:12 PM »

Hi Jimmy, the micro R&D is on hold right now, given that there have finally been some calm days I've been gearing up with my Wakes and Coupes for some outdoor flying. I just got an altimeter for my Wake thanks to another thread here at HP, so I'm excited to get out and try that the next calm day.

I've followed your LPP build, looks pretty good, seems like you just have to do covering at this point, did you get to that? Also wondering how the indoor fling went? I thought we'd get some reports on that but it's been pretty quiet lately.

WRT the micro, you have .032 C-grain so I would use that for the ribs, there's only three in the wing anyway. You have .050 A/B, so you can use that for the outlines, just try to cut it about 1/32" thick and that's probably close enough. You could sand it a few strokes, but I would just cut it thin - if you have a stripper, make it .020 so you end up with .050 x .020 instead of .040 x .024. Otherwise just eyeball around .030. The component weights I give on the plan are consistent with my 2nd and 3rd micros, so they are useful references, just keep track of the weights and you'll see what needs to be changed on the next one.

One thing I like about the micros is that they build incredibly fast, there isn't much there! So I would just get it built and get flying, you can then make refinements on the next one. That way you're getting right to the fun. Plus I've actually learned a few things from my living room experimentation. Larry
Logged
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355



Ignore
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2014, 12:07:34 AM »

Yeah I am looking forward to building a quick little guy. Might have been a better idea to build this guy first, them the LPP. I just had the thought I might have had it ready for the Indoor Fling. No such luck. The Indoor Fling was very cool. Though it looked like a smaller turn out than expected. I brought the whole fam and the kids got antsy after a while so I couldn't gawk and chit chat like I wanted to but ah well. I did get to meet George Bredehoft and chat with him. He even gave my daughter a Phantom Flash kit which was super cool! THANKS GEORGE!!!

I will post more about that on my thread later.

I haven't posted or done much building as I have been busier than I ever want to be with being short handed at work. Working early mornings before regular work hours and then at night after kids go to bed. I am just about ready to start covering. I got the wood today for my covering frame and hope to build that during the day tomorrow and maybe take a shot at covering tomorrow night after kids go to bed. We'll see.

As for my Micro when the time comes I think I will just take your advice & cut the .050 thin and just build it. Can't wait to try this guy and have another plane for inside the house. My Butterfly is great but certainly not capable of 2+ minute times under a household ceiling. Like you said, build it & fly it then start to tinker.

Can't wait...  Wink

Regards,
Jimmy
Logged
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355



Ignore
« Reply #66 on: November 22, 2014, 08:52:41 AM »

So here we are, finally building the Micro. Finished the LPP and added extra incentive when I crushed my beloved Butterfly when I pushed through the box lid it was in and flattened it.
Built the templates. Took my 1/20 and sanded it down. No mics so this is just a TLAR affair. I just tried to make the .050 between 3/5 & 4/5th thick. Then cut strips and about half that thickness to shoot for somewhere around .040 x .025 and just using that for all of it.

First soaked some strips & did the wing which turned out great. I have 1/32 C and used that for ribs. So light with only 1 glue joint but had a heck of a time getting the wood to bend around as needed without issues, even wet. Though it sure dries out fast. Then tried the sharper bends of the stab and rudder and just couldn't do it. Those bends are too sharp for me to get even wet. Not enough patience doesn't help either since my build time is few & far between. Called it a night as at least the wing was done.

Was so proud of that wing and then the next day I made the stupid mistake of leaving it on the counter ledge and my wife walked by it, it blew off and then she stepped on it... DONE.

That was a couple weeks ago.

Last night I made another but just went with straight angles. I can totally tell the difference in weight but ah well. Grabbing the flattened wing and the new one and letting them drop to the floor at the same time the new wing gets there a bit faster.

The stab and rudder will hopefully be next weekend. Here's some pics.

Regards,
Jimmy
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Logged
JoseMiguel
Nickel Member
*

Kudos: 0
Offline Offline

Argentina Argentina

Posts: 2



Ignore
« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2014, 06:58:26 AM »

Might I suggest you design guidelines that rotate clockwise in a radius of 10 '
Logged
Flyguy
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 40
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 797


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2014, 02:34:26 PM »

Hi Jimmy - your wings look really nice! too bad about the first one, you did a good job there. I like the swept back front on the second one.

Yes the stab outline can be tricky (I've gone over to a more slightly more elliptical shape in later versions), I think you'll be fine if you just go for square or angled. The trick is that you have to keep steady tension on the strip as you pull it around, otherwise it will crimp. I usually just hold the template and strip with one finger (or tape down one end of the strip) then, while gently pulling it to keep it tight, wrap it around in a smooth motion. But again I think square is fine, I mainly like the round stuff because it appears to be stronger with respect to hitting things! Did you get the stab/rud done yet?



Logged
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355



Ignore
« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2014, 10:58:44 PM »

Hey Larry! Thx for the encouraging words. I see what you mean about the crimping. That's exactly what was happening. The swept back front came from the Novice LPP I built. Which, btw I just may be able to maiden at church tomorrow night.  Grin I figured the shape was easy and looks good to boot. The stab is built. Just a simple rectangle. The rudder will be the same. Just so very busy right now I have no build time. I got the motor stick done. Plan on getting some .08 wire from the music store for the rear hook and prop shaft. So I have a lot to do yet. I will just follow the plans for the prop regarding pitch.

Oh and haven't covered the stab or wing yet either. Planned on crumbling the film first on this one then maybe just spreading it out over foam. Might make a small frame and try it like I did the LPP. Not sure which way I will go with that yet.

Will post more pics once I get more done.

Regards,
Jimmy
Logged
Hepcat
OOS, January 2019
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 278
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,777



Ignore
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2014, 08:11:58 PM »

Jimmy,
I always enjoy your enthusiastic posts but I wonder if you should slow down and get some sleep now and then!  Your typing slips gave me a smile but they could cause problems one day.  I am sure that you found the .08 wire too heavy for the rear hook but I was more worried about you crumbling the film, I hope you meant crumpling.  To be serious, I have not tried opening crumpled film on foam and, indeed, I have always gone for a very smooth, hard surface, like glass.  I suggest that you wait for comment from others.
John
Logged

John Barker UK - Will be missed by all that knew him.
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355



Ignore
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2014, 11:00:37 PM »

Hey John,
Glad I can entertain some.  Wink

You are quite observant. You pegged me. My wife asks me to stop and take a rest often. Life for me is quite busy. I actually pine for the day it slows down some. lol

I see the mistakes in my typing too. The rear hook & shaft would be .008.

As for the film I was talking about how folks ball it up and then open it for use. Though on a plane this small that might not provide much of the intended benefit and actually just be a step I should probably skip.

I mention the whole laying the film down over soft foam and then laying the wing over it with adhesive on the frame. I saw it on a vid once where a builder had a soft foam surface and laid the film over it and then just slowly rolled the wing over it after spritzing a bit of 3m77 of course. I just can't remember who that builder was.

I did watch Alan Cohen's vid of covering using a frame with the film stretched over it and that is how I did my LPP and really liked that method. That is probably how I will do this one too.

Awe heck, I just want to get this little guy done so I can fly in the living room. I miss flying since the Butterfly met it's unfortunate demise.  Roll Eyes

I really appreciate your concern and interest in my adventure and willingness to help. I will definitely keep my ears open for more advice too. Stay tuned...  Grin

Warm regards,
Jimmy
Logged
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355



Ignore
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2015, 08:35:16 PM »

wow, been almost a year and I am now just getting back to this build. Real life had taken over but finding time again and want to get this little guy done.

Larry, I have to ask and hope you are still monitoring this thread...
I am looking at the plans and the formula (bottom left corner) that seems to set where the CG and the location of the wing posts are. I see the side view drawing of the plane. Is that drawing true to where these items are or just a visible general reference? If I need to compute using that formula I have to admit it is going over the head that houses my tired brain. I am hoping you or someone that understands it can explain how I use it to locate the wing posts.

Looks like i am able to go back to Friday night build sessions. Last night I tried a failed attempt at fixing my broken stab on my LPP that never saw its first flight and ended up scrapping the whole stab. Need to build another and really don't feel like getting back into that serious delicate build again. So I would rather spend time on something I can get done and fly quicker. I am naturally in too much of a hurry to get the fragile LPP done properly so sticking with the micro until its flying.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated and Larry, I am hoping to hear if there was ever any other R&D on this guy. I know you shelved it for some outdoor adventures. I want to get some embryo building going too.

Closing in on the cold holiday weather so it's a perfect time to get living room birds up!  Grin

warmest regards,
Jimmy
Logged
Flyguy
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 40
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 797


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2015, 03:10:03 PM »

Hi Jimmy - been awhile since I looked at it, the formula given on the plans by the way is for a 3 7/8" long tail boom (not 4"). The plan doesn't show the actual wing location. First, locate the balance point for the completed plane in the usual manner. Then measure how far back the balance point is from the nose. You can then just plug that in the formula and it tells you the rear wing post location.

For example, suppose the balance point is 2" from the nose. Then the rear post is at 1.247 x 2 - .133 = 2.36" from the nose. That's it. Of course, you could also just locate the post in terms of percentage of the wing chord in the usual way if you want as well.

There hasn't been any R&D lately, it's discouraging not having a regular decent place to fly indoors, whereas I'm out practically every week with my outdoor planes for most of the year, really having fun. However, the weather has been too bad in February the last few years for any outdoor flying, so that's when I get more motivated for indoor (not coincidental that this thread was started at the end of January!), though your enthusiasm can be contagious, and I did have some other modifications that I wanted to check out...  Smiley  Looked like you were pretty far along Jimmy, you should be able to get up and flying soon!

Logged
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355



Ignore
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2015, 10:24:10 PM »

Hey thx for the explanation Larry. In 2 spots tho you mention "in the usual way". Keep in mind all my experience is rc foamies. I have never done stick & tissue rubber powered flight like this.
My usual way for finding cg with planes I built was take the completed airframe, wing & all and test glide using temporary weight like clay or a chip clip. Slide the weight around until I got a nice flat glide and mark the cg.

So with a plane like this aren't I trying to determine the rear wing post location "before" permanently mounting the wing?

or better yet, what is the "usual" way to find CG on a build like this? I have not a clue. What first comes to mind is laying the wing on the stick after the stabs & bearing are on and moving it around until it balances flat???

"locate the post in terms of percentage of the wing chord in the usual way if you want as well." This is another "usual way" that I am not familiar with.  Embarrassed

Going take a shot at cutting the motor stick & boom tomorrow night and maybe get those going so I have a build session or 2 before I will get started on finding CG.

Any advice would be oh so greatly appreciated.  Smiley

Have a blessed Friday!
Jimmy
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!