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Author Topic: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!  (Read 20624 times)
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Skymon
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« Reply #200 on: December 10, 2018, 11:25:22 AM »

Those times are great, I've never managed double figures on my F1L yet, but it was only the second plane I ever built after a ministick.
I am still working on getting the rubber and prop dialled in. I like the way it flies but the RPM is too high for a decent time.
More work to do Smiley
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Flyguy
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« Reply #201 on: December 10, 2018, 12:41:42 PM »

Yes keeping the rpm down, I'm thinking of that as well. Given that the in-front-of-the-spar blade worked fairly well last week, I made another prop with a wider blade. My .01 sheets are generally about 1 1/16" wide, but this blade is 1 1/4", so I butt-joined about a 1/4" strip on the end with some thinned ambroid, then soaked and wrapped the sheets as usual, photo with new wider prop blades attached, if you look close you can see where I joined the strip in the upper blade. Also replaced the tail boom with a stiffer one, so that brings the total weight up from 1.09 to 1.14 g, getting close! Curious to see how the wider prop does this week.
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OZPAF
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« Reply #202 on: December 10, 2018, 05:58:47 PM »

What covering material are you using Larry?

John
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Flyguy
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« Reply #203 on: December 10, 2018, 07:08:35 PM »

OS film, nice stuff, cuts really easy, and it's pretty light!
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OZPAF
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« Reply #204 on: December 11, 2018, 12:40:37 AM »

Thanks Larry. I also flew a bit of EZB but in the mid 80's. Only the one model and it was a modified (much longer tail moment) Laurie Barr Flyrod, covered in condenser paper. I remember it weighed around 2 gms and it's best flight on 0.065 Tan was around 11mins. - with a lot of ceiling scraping. I still have the remains.

John
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Flyguy
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« Reply #205 on: December 11, 2018, 10:04:45 AM »

Nice John, another EzB flyer from long ago! I flew it first in the late 60's-early 70's, then a 15 year absence, then again in the late 80s, then a 25 year absence. My old EzB was about 1 gram, so it's almost like F1L, but they were already getting down to about .7 at that time (kind of ruined it in my view). I've really enjoyed flying A6 and mini so far, but did feel a real wave of nostalgia flying the F1L last week, like coming home.
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« Reply #206 on: December 12, 2018, 06:20:56 PM »

The remains of mine are in a foam box with a Hanger Rat that is almost as old. I seem to remember that mine was regarded as a heavy version but I don't think that in Australia we were flying them all that much lighter. I enjoyed flying it and still have some of the gear including a Jim Jones torque meter(is he still alive?) and one of his balsa strippers. I flew with a group who were mainly RC  flyers as I was. It was a 30min drive to the school auditorium we had access to and usually led to a long night - flying from around 7 to 10.30 - 11.00. I flew it in a couple of our nationals and remember at one being defeated by spider webs Smiley as the prop was close to the LE of the wing(long tail moment) and it would pick up spider webs from near the roof, which would stop the prop! very annoying at the time as I had done 7 mins on a practice flight and couldn't manage 4 in the official flights - thanks to the spiders.

Great memories. Have fun with yours Larry.

John
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Flyguy
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« Reply #207 on: December 12, 2018, 06:39:07 PM »

Good story, that's funny about the spider webs!

I'm very happy with today's F1L flying, the new wider flaring prop was really smooth, I was expecting a lot of wobble so was pleasantly surprised. I'm still experimenting with motors and only got in a few flights, but the last flight of the day was no touch, never went above 30' (safely below the lights), and was 11:30 (better than last week) and I had 1000 winds left! so should be able to get some longer times once I get a better idea about the motor, I have a whole week to think about that!
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« Reply #208 on: December 12, 2018, 06:47:07 PM »

That's good going Larry. My 11mins back then was to me a major effort. I seem to remember that I used around 1680 turns and a torque rending of 2 on Jim's torque meter. I didn't know about backin off as I was a heavy RC glider comp flyer and indoor flying was a relaxing Smiley pastime.
The story of the nationals took place in the evening after a long day flying RC thermal in the middle of our summer with temps in the high 30 deg C. Alos the humidity was very low and as it was covered with condenser paper the tail was warping like a pretzel! I had to make careful minor breaks in the spars and reglue with CA to get it anywhere near straight! By the time the spiders got into the act I was not amused Smiley
Cheers have a good Christmas
John
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« Reply #209 on: January 09, 2019, 03:23:08 PM »

Very happy with today's F1L flying at Teaneck. I've been playing with props, as usual, using a 15" prop now. I've upped the blade width to 1 1/2" inches, had a few 11+ min flights with them. Today I wanted to compare two props - one formed on a 24 p block and set at 28 p and one formed and set at 28p - I could see right away the latter was better, though I still need more flying with them. I had three no-touch 32 foot (a little over a foot below the lights) flights: 12:05, 12:50, and 13:15, really happy to break 13 minutes! Prop rpm was 100 on the 13 min flight, 90 on the other two. now it's getting interesting...
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Skymon
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« Reply #210 on: January 10, 2019, 06:40:55 AM »

I flew my F1L this week, with less positive results.
I made up a bigger prop and spent a lot of time upping the launch torque with each flight to find the level where the plane started to climb.
After finding that and stepping up a few turns I turned in a very nice, if short flight with a few feet of climb and a nice 91 RPM.
Then I added more turns and everything went to pieces.
After launch the plane flew straight on, one end of the gym to the other.
My motor stick is not up to it - it's curving and killing the left turn.
I bashed the plane about with my steering pole and eventually it started to turn after the torque had reduced.

So one step forward and one back.

I have a nice prop and some good rubber data but the stick won't take it.

Time for a new stick!
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« Reply #211 on: January 10, 2019, 12:03:35 PM »

This is not unusual for F1L. When I was doing a lot of F1L flying I had to twist the MS against the torque and hold it for 15-20 seconds before launch. Otherwise I would get right wing washout and a death spiral. I also started using static right wing washin to help keep the right wing up at high torque. Looking back at my numbers in 2007 and 2009 most of my launch torques were in the low .2 in-oz range with the highest being .27 at Lakehurst.

If you're NOT getting death spirals then maybe your stick is okay and you just need to add more left thrust. You can get some relief by offsetting the rear hook a little to the left side so the stick will bow in that direction under high torque.
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« Reply #212 on: January 10, 2019, 01:08:56 PM »

Yes you need a stiff enough stick! I've also noticed that you need slightly heavier rubber for these high flaring props.

Thanks for the numbers Olbill, that's useful info. For the 13 min flight, my launch torque was .198 which just took it to 32 feet (the limit), 15" 1.2 g motor, 1601 winds, 271 left on landing. torques for the other two flights were both .191. I'm going to try a slightly higher pitch prop next time.
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« Reply #213 on: January 10, 2019, 03:07:13 PM »

Here is a pic from the last time I made F1L MS's. The 6 at the bottom were all sanded to 290mg and then column tested. The second numbers are the results of the column tests. The 4 at the top were too heavy. I think the topmost one eventually became a LPP MS.
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OZPAF
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« Reply #214 on: January 10, 2019, 11:11:29 PM »

Fascinating stuff fellows. That is a monster prop you have Larry. Your Torque and turns data is very close to what I used on my best 0.065" Tan around 30yrs ago! in a modified Barr Flyrod. The prop would have been around 14-15" dia from memory. it's best flight in close to the same height but ceiling scrubbing was around 11 mins. It was a bit of a porker compared to yours at 2gms and covered with condenser paper.
This interesting stuff brings back many memories.
John
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Skymon
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« Reply #215 on: January 11, 2019, 03:33:06 AM »

This is not unusual for F1L. When I was doing a lot of F1L flying I had to twist the MS against the torque and hold it for 15-20 seconds before launch. Otherwise I would get right wing washout and a death spiral. I also started using static right wing washin to help keep the right wing up at high torque. Looking back at my numbers in 2007 and 2009 most of my launch torques were in the low .2 in-oz range with the highest being .27 at Lakehurst.

If you're NOT getting death spirals then maybe your stick is okay and you just need to add more left thrust. You can get some relief by offsetting the rear hook a little to the left side so the stick will bow in that direction under high torque.

Bill
When you say right do you mean from the front or back?
I was launching at 5.1g/cm and the plane was just climbing.
I went up to 6 for a nice gentle climbing half height sortie.
When I went up to 7 it started to straighten out.
0.2in/oz is 14g/cm, that's territory I am no where near Smiley
I am half of that for what I think will give me a decent flight time in the CATI I use.
It's 7.85M high and he ceiling is reasonably clear but it's pretty small so tight turning is required.
I have dropped the trailing edge of the wing on the inside of the turn a tad just to keep that wing up, but it's almost imperceptible.
The offset wing area tends to iron out any spiralling descent pattern.

I made 15 motor stick blanks last night from some C grain stock I had.
I used three different 3.2mm sheets and cut 7mm x 230mm blanks.
weights from 280mg to 480mg.
I will try some A grain stock tonight.
I use a test for side bend that's similar to an arrow spine test.
I have two points 20cm apart that I rest the blank on then add a mass in the centre and test the deflection distance with a carrot gauge.
I got ranges from 3.2mm to 0.8mm, and different values for each side.
It will allow me to make sure the stiffest direction side to side is always on the outside of the turn.
SO any bend induced by the pull of the rubber should assist my turn rather than fight it.
I don't mind sharp turns in the early climbing stages.

Every time I spend three hours flying I end up creating at least 30 hours of building Smiley


Happy flying
Si
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« Reply #216 on: January 11, 2019, 07:01:28 AM »

Isn't it better to post a new thread?
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Olbill
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« Reply #217 on: January 11, 2019, 10:46:37 AM »

This is not unusual for F1L. When I was doing a lot of F1L flying I had to twist the MS against the torque and hold it for 15-20 seconds before launch. Otherwise I would get right wing washout and a death spiral. I also started using static right wing washin to help keep the right wing up at high torque. Looking back at my numbers in 2007 and 2009 most of my launch torques were in the low .2 in-oz range with the highest being .27 at Lakehurst.

If you're NOT getting death spirals then maybe your stick is okay and you just need to add more left thrust. You can get some relief by offsetting the rear hook a little to the left side so the stick will bow in that direction under high torque.

Bill
When you say right do you mean from the front or back?
I was launching at 5.1g/cm and the plane was just climbing.
I went up to 6 for a nice gentle climbing half height sortie.
When I went up to 7 it started to straighten out.
0.2in/oz is 14g/cm, that's territory I am no where near Smiley
I am half of that for what I think will give me a decent flight time in the CATI I use.
It's 7.85M high and he ceiling is reasonably clear but it's pretty small so tight turning is required.
I have dropped the trailing edge of the wing on the inside of the turn a tad just to keep that wing up, but it's almost imperceptible.
The offset wing area tends to iron out any spiralling descent pattern.

I made 15 motor stick blanks last night from some C grain stock I had.
I used three different 3.2mm sheets and cut 7mm x 230mm blanks.
weights from 280mg to 480mg.
I will try some A grain stock tonight.
I use a test for side bend that's similar to an arrow spine test.
I have two points 20cm apart that I rest the blank on then add a mass in the centre and test the deflection distance with a carrot gauge.
I got ranges from 3.2mm to 0.8mm, and different values for each side.
It will allow me to make sure the stiffest direction side to side is always on the outside of the turn.
SO any bend induced by the pull of the rubber should assist my turn rather than fight it.
I don't mind sharp turns in the early climbing stages.

Every time I spend three hours flying I end up creating at least 30 hours of building Smiley


Happy flying
Si


My "death spirals" always occur with the outboard (right) wing washing out and the model going into a tight left hand turn with the outboard wing down.
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