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Author Topic: 1960s Coupe d'Hiver Postal  (Read 152453 times)
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THB
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« Reply #175 on: July 21, 2014, 06:11:44 AM »

Hi Graiskye, Lincoln et al
Very old school tissue cutting, I'm afraid. The white lettering is cut through a sandwich of several layers taped to the back of a printed font. Much easier to pick a font that you like than try to match a scale font I'd have to say. The white over black is about 4 or 5 layers thick. Most are just single layer, all Esaki, thin white glue adhesive round the edges - then layers doped on 50/50 dope/acetone. Wing is 22g and tailplane about 6g. The boom and fuse pod as is comes out at 24g - but there's no DT, tail mount, noseblock or prop hardware etc yet.
Dave, yours is looking good as usual - is the Alibass a contender also? As you said: we just need to pick a weekend to go to Lawrie's farm and reel off some straight maxes... HA HA HA Grin   I think that's the bit where it gets difficult...
Tho soldering a prop thingy together will also take some attention. (Wish mine turns out like SOCs props)
thanks for the comments
cheers
Tim
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Tim
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« Reply #176 on: July 26, 2014, 11:15:20 PM »

Dwarf Dip III is up to the covering stage.
The weather forecast for the next week is pretty crummy so it should be ready to go by the time some flyable weather arrives.

Marc, I'd like to use a tip up wing DT (actually a tip up pylon due to the wing seating).
A tip up tail is sometimes marginal on our field.
Would that be acceptable ?

Sean
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lincoln
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« Reply #177 on: July 27, 2014, 12:50:37 AM »

That's an interesting and attractive set of bones. Is there a guide someplace explaining how it's possible to make a structure with all those tricky diagonals without going completely insane?
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dputt7
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« Reply #178 on: July 27, 2014, 01:33:44 AM »

Nice job Sean, your flying surfaces look great!
Well I'm just waiting for the weather and opportunity now, Drobek is done, took awhile to get the accessories organised though. The Badge Lite timer for the D/T arrived and is connected and I finished off the prop.
 I did some testing with the different batches of rubber that I have (all only Tan Super Sport) and found it was well down on the specs others obtain. The best I could get was 22 inch/ounces @ 450 turns with 10 strands of 1/8th, so that will have to do. I built a torque meter and a blast tube to use. These little motors really go off with a bang, I still cant find a "T" hook that went flying in my shed after an explosion!
Now to hunt through my books to find a Scale 3 view of something that catches my eye for my next project!
Dave
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sparkle
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« Reply #179 on: July 27, 2014, 04:25:02 AM »

 Grin Hi Dave! Looks finished!
 Just waiting for some Queensland calm weather, which we have in shed loads at the moment!
 ( Sadly I'm otherwise engaged as you know! )
  Today you could have flown all day, even with a coupe and not walked far!
  If you are looking for help with Japanese 3 view let me know! ps. looking forward to the build!
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« Reply #180 on: July 27, 2014, 04:46:11 AM »

  Hi John,
Just got a few moments of "relative" calm before dark tonight and thought I would see what would happen. Test glide looked OK so I put on a hundred turns and it just floated around, the video shows the next 3 flights of 150,175 and 200 turns. There was a bit of turbulence as can be seen in the last flight and as it was starting to use up my small field I decided that was enough.  I've made no changes to anything, it's just as built though I can imagine having to do some mods when I crank in some more turns. The lower prop blade appears not to fold correctly so I thought I would put on a closing band. however the pivot had a tight spot in it and once freed up should be OK. http://youtu.be/6dnR2SXCRsk?list=UUGnbDn4ftkXW2v5C3_wvXrQ
 
P.S. I'm actually looking at a British 3-view  Shocked
regards Dave
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billdennis747
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« Reply #181 on: July 27, 2014, 05:09:43 AM »

Dave
At 42 seconds there is the unmistakable sound of model entering tree. You are definitely dicing there!
I hope that winding hook is welded in! Interested that you are using 10 x 1/8". I made up 12 strands because most of the British 60s designs seemed to go for 6 x 1/4. But it was rather a beast to wind
Bill
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« Reply #182 on: July 27, 2014, 05:23:03 AM »

Bill
When I did my rubber testing It seemed I could get more turns with not much less torque with 10 strands rather than 12. It's probably my rubber but when I get the chance to fly it with a bit more space I will try a few different combo's.
Dave
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sparkle
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« Reply #183 on: July 27, 2014, 06:21:35 AM »

 Grin video looking lovely with close to zero turns. Anything  English in particular?, I may have something.
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« Reply #184 on: July 27, 2014, 07:01:36 AM »

Relax John, I'll let you know when I do.  Grin
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #185 on: July 27, 2014, 02:41:22 PM »

Marc, I'd like to use a tip up wing DT (actually a tip up pylon due to the wing seating).
A tip up tail is sometimes marginal on our field.
Would that be acceptable ?

Sean
Sean,
I'd prefer you keep it as original as possible but if wing DTs were in use in the '60s and that's the way you would have built it back then, I will allow it.  And just because I'm curious, do you really have much trouble with thermals in the Winter there?
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Mark
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« Reply #186 on: July 27, 2014, 04:27:14 PM »

now Almost Ready To Fly.....replica of Yves Sargentini,  French champion 1968

just needs trim of spring load for prop stop.

30 years old 6 strands 1/4 orange Pirreli is longer than 10 years old 12 strands 1/8 TAN II (out of the box with no breaking in....) so first: motors breaking in, 2 or 3 rear peg location and then test fly......or build an other nose with Guy Cognet 2 prop stop system (published in 1972 but in use before) for streched motors to use different sorts of motors (6 strands or equivalent). 
 
 
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faif2d
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« Reply #187 on: July 27, 2014, 05:25:16 PM »

I was lucky to have Charlie Sotich as a mentor back in the day.  He used construction like in the Dwarf Dip tail in a number of other designs.  I built 2 Draw Dips which were A2 gliders with Parabolic shaped wing leading edges and he used this structure.  It was actually easy to build as he used a simplex airfoil which has the property of staying the same as you trim the trailing edge of each stick.  It was very complicated looking but actually went together very easily.  The only one that was easier was the one by Fast Richard where he used straight sticks from the highpoint of the wing to the TE with a full depth spar at the high point and the back of the multi spar rib.
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« Reply #188 on: July 28, 2014, 06:19:39 AM »

Very neat job 151-30, looks very advanced for its time, good luck with the testing.

 Could the longer Pirelli motor be because it is 6mm and not 1/4", I would have thought Pirelli would come in metric sizes ?
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« Reply #189 on: July 28, 2014, 07:38:26 AM »

Quote
but if wing DTs were in use in the '60s

Laurie Barr's Scram, lightweight rubber design of 1949/50 used a pop up wing DT as described in the contemporary MA article. Also, for the record, I'm told by someone competing at the time that the Autoknips clockwork timer was available from the mid 50s, followed shortly thereafter by a US design.

Peter
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« Reply #190 on: July 28, 2014, 06:15:15 PM »

Haven't seen this one posted anyplace. Jossien's Basplum from Zaic's 1959-1961 Yearbook.
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lincoln
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« Reply #191 on: July 28, 2014, 11:47:12 PM »

Xaxap 2
Anyone know about this one? I don't recall where I found it! Seems like it MIGHT be from the 1960's.
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Soc
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« Reply #192 on: July 30, 2014, 03:38:42 AM »

Some replies to recent posts.

Dave

22 oz.in. and 450 turns looks OK for 10 stands, especially if it was cold in the shed.
I've been using some old (but OK)  batches of Tan I for years and have only recently graduated to Super Sport.
When I first tried SS (first thing on a chilly morning out on the field) I was underwhelmed, but those who know said it was a good batch I had. Later I found it heaps better when the temp was closer to 20C
I reckon, with practise, you will get more turns and a little more torque.


Lincoln

There are some pics in post #71 which indicate construction steps.
I shaped all the ribs in a stack and notched them for the spars, removed half, then carefully cut the remainder in two.
I used a piece of packing a couple of bays long to support the half ribs at the centre joint until the glue jelled
The ends are chamfered to suit as the work proceeds.
The spar notches are opened up a tad with little sanding sticks after all the ribs are assembled.


faif2d

Perhaps you can tell us something about Charlie Sotich's D..... Dip names ?
Is there some quirky joke behind them ?
Is there a collection of the entire family ?

Sean
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dputt7
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« Reply #193 on: July 30, 2014, 04:49:10 AM »

Thanks for your input Sean, yes it was certainly cold that night. What do you suggest a heated blast tube  Grin
 I guess by practise you mean how much stretch and when to come in, what would be a safeish percentage from breaking turns. strange thing all my motors broke in the middle.
Dave
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« Reply #194 on: July 30, 2014, 11:43:14 AM »

Yes there was a reason for the DIP names and I know he told me what it was but that was in about 1969 and I know longer remember what that was.  The last time I saw him was in 1972 or 3 although we did exchange Christmas cards for a number of years. I do remember that he had a design in the Ziac year books of a coupe I think that was attributed to a Mr. J Daniels. ( the whiskey) I am not aware of any listing of the family of names but it would be interesting as he was quite prolific back in the 60's and 70's.  He never flew power models and I remember at a NATS in Willow Grove while sitting on the tail gate of his car a power model looped into the concrete about 30 ft away, he never even twitched when the Doppler effect told me that it was going to crash and not to far away at that.  His only comment was something like "note how fast the motor stops at impact" He was a very nice man and I miss him.
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« Reply #195 on: July 31, 2014, 03:35:27 AM »

faif2d and others

I just googled Charlie Sotich to see what I could find.
I rediscovered that he was better known for his minature kites
and sadly that he died on the 23rd of March this year, just as I'd begun Dwarf Dip III.
I'll have to get to know his kites. People collect them so there are plenty of images.

The 64/65 Zaic Year Book has a special section on C d'hiver.
The first article is Charlie Sotich's piece from Model Aviation describing his Dwarf Dip II design.
A few pages over we find The Spirit attributed to Jack Daniels.
This one has sheetbalsa wings and single blade prop, but a complex fuselage design.
I'll scan it later and post it here.

Sean
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Hepcat
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« Reply #196 on: July 31, 2014, 10:46:06 AM »

relating to Replies #179 and #193.

Dave and Sean,
I have been away from active flying for several years and am hesitant to post in case old age has got my memory but it might prod some others into giving their figures.

My calculations say that 10g of 1/8th in 12 strands will take 450 max turns, give 30 in.oz max torque and a 52 seconds motor run.  These figures agree with what my memory says I achieved in practice.

The same calculations on a 10 strand motor give me 600 max turns, 22 in.oz max torque and a 78 seconds motor run. With the change of 12 to 10 strands these figures look sensible to me but I haven't had any recent Super Sport to try.  However I am surprised that it could give 22 in.oz at 450 turns.  By my figures that is only about three quarters of full turns and most rubber will increase torque four or five times as the last 25 percent of turns are put on.  Is it possible that something has shifted on the torque meter?  I have made quite a few and if I can help with the torque wire calculations I should be pleased to do so.

John
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« Reply #197 on: August 01, 2014, 01:42:32 AM »

John
Thank you for your reply, this is the same problem I have encountered before.
I did the same test with 10 strands twice and they both broke at around 480 turns, I was not of course able to read the torque at breaking point but the previous readings had been 22 in/oz at 450 turns. The torque meter was calculated using the formula at this web site http://www.modelflight.com/torque.html

I also have a Gizmo Geeza torque meter which I checked against my home made one and at 20 in/oz it is within the thickness of the needle on the dial. I was very surprised that it compared so favourable. The counters on both winders were also checked. I have a batch of modern 1/4 that I've not tried yet and will have a go over the weekend however it is still forecast to be in the low teens (C) so I may try to move my testing indoors, though I still have to fly out doors!

One other thing is regarding break in, I used to wind my motor to about half turns a couple of times and call that it, with these motors I used a method of stretching to twice length for a few minutes then after resting  stretching again to 4 times the length for 4 minutes.
Any advice would be appreciated
regards Dave
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« Reply #198 on: August 01, 2014, 10:32:51 AM »

Dave,
I don't want to cause any offence by doubting your word but are you sure that the motor you broke at about 480 turns was 10 strands?  From what I read the latest Super Sport takes a few more turns to reach max torque than the SS I was using a few years back and I think that the 22 in.oz at 450 turns and the break at 480 turns is just what one would expect from a 12 strand motor.

As far as 'breaking in' was concerned; for several years I stretched about 8 times free length for several minutes but concluded eventually that it was not giving any benefit.  Breaking in gives the rubber a small permanent stretch which allows a very few extra turns but it does not increase the energy content.  I think most of us now wind with a torque meter and 'feel' - the feel for the hardness when the rubber is due to break.  On the first comp flight with the new motor I would get the reading right up on the torque meter but not venture into the 'hard feel' region.  Second flight the motor would be 'broken in' if you want to call it that and would take those few extra turns but with no more torque.  So two good runs, one with top torque and another with top turns and usually after a week's rest two more excellent competition winds to follow.
John
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« Reply #199 on: August 01, 2014, 11:12:30 AM »

John
I think recent Tan SS may have different physical characteristics, (possibly thicker?), although I have not checked. In the last tests I did, last month, on 10g 12 strand motors, Oct 2012 broke at 428 and May 2014 broke at 420 turns. My torque meter uses arbitrary markings for relative comparisons, but torque was at least 10% higher than typical at max turns.

D/T
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