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Author Topic: Sperry Messenger  (Read 1833 times)
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DavidJP
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« on: April 21, 2014, 06:17:03 AM »

I want to have a go at the indoor scale and have been recommended the Sperry Messenger - and I gather that Al Lidbergh did one. Does anyone have a copy I could purloin or make one from - willing to swap something if need be - please.  I know one is available from a well known source if all else fails.
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Dave Andreski
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2014, 01:55:57 PM »

David,
I can upload that Lidberg plan to the Plans Gallery but I don't know the wingspan. I'd like to include that info.
So what's the wingspan? I'm too lazy to look it up.
My PDF plan prints out on 6 sheets of U.S. letter- 8.5 X 11' paper.
Admin, (Ratz), may want to work his magic on the plan and reassemble it into a single large page. We'll see.

Dave
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 02:33:25 PM by Dave Andreski » Logged

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Indoorflyer
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 03:09:27 PM »

Al Lidberg's website lists the Sperry M as 18" wingspan.  (that's probably más o menos  Roll Eyes)
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Dave Andreski
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2014, 03:10:30 PM »

Al Lidberg's website lists the Sperry M as 18" wingspan.  (that's probably mas o menos  Roll Eyes)

Thanks Dave.
Dave
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DavidJP
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 03:23:28 PM »

Yes, that is my understanding too - many thanks.  Maybe Ratz can do me a copy too? So what about it Ratz?
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Dave Andreski
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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 10:51:29 AM »

IndoorFlyer has reminded us that this plan is still being sold by Al Lidberg so I won't be uploading it to the 'Plans Gallery'.
http://www.aalmps.com/

Dave
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Bryanair
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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2014, 11:51:36 AM »

Al Lidberg Sperry Messenger 18"  K769 from SAMS Models £4.95 or from Mike Woodhouse Free Flight Supplies £5.00
Postage is extra from both sources.  Surely you can spare a fiver?

 
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DavidJP
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2014, 03:07:35 AM »

Surely you can spare a fiver?

Short answer, yes!  And I have really started from the wrong end. Should of course have checked to see if Al Lidberg was still offering the plan.  And Mike Woodhouse who lives not far away incidentally does as you say have copies for sale. I visit his emporium and in truth life could be difficult without it!

So why all the fuss?  Well I am indulging in a little bit of "fun" (the more mature may think differently). But it has got a bit daft now so my apologies to all.  It is all due to my advanced years. Huh Roll Eyes Wink
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DavidJP
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2015, 09:15:03 AM »

Right; I am making a start on this little machine.  Must admit watching one of Graham Banham's little YHWM last night with an electric motor flying round I could be sorely tempted to go electric. But for the moment rubber it is. 

Have been doing a bit of research and there are some pics. of a replica on the 'net - and one in Washington of which I was given some pics  by another indoor boffin which is predictably pristine. And I am not sure just how accurate these replicas are though.

I also found the photo below which is much move "my kind of machine" - used and abused! But note the bits and pieces on the wing tip - don't appear on the replicas so what are they?  Would love to know also what the text is on the cowl.

Lidberg's plan is based on one with a registration number (?)  64224 and P162 on the rudder.  I quite like this one (found a three view) so please can anyone direct me to any pictures. The replicas look a bit like pristine RTFs where detail has been omitted in favour of keeping the price down.
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2015, 09:50:56 AM »

David,
The machine in your photo has an experimental variable camber wing.

Here's a photo of the Lidberg plan bird.  That's not a registration number.  It's U.S. Army serial number.  The P152 (not P162) is a Wright Field (Dayton, Ohio) project number.
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Mark
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2015, 11:27:06 AM »

David,

Would your 3-view be the one by Jim Morrow?  (It's available in the HPA Plan Gallery).  Mr. Morrow is known for his accurate drawings.
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DavidJP
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2015, 05:06:32 PM »

Mark, that is much appreciated - the one in your image looks a little shiny perhaps?  But that is what i will go for.  Thanks again. I have to ask too how you came by this information - is there a "work" on Sperry Messengers? The variable under camber is rather fascinating and presumably explains the other "attachments" to the underside of the wings. It is of course one of the pitfalls of research - variations because of experimentation do not apply to all marks!

Indoor Flyer - yes that is the one I have - very nice drawing actually isn't it - he obviously is very professional!
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Indoorflyer
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2015, 07:01:12 PM »

Indoor Flyer - yes that is the one I have - very nice drawing actually isn't it - he obviously is very professional!

I believe he was a draughtsman for Boeing; his son is Mike Morrow, the proprietor of AeroAces.com.

http://www.aeroaces.com/aeroaceshome.htm

Mike sells his Dad's drawings which include many of the early Boeing aircraft.    They both are very talented.
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2015, 01:08:20 PM »

David,
The photo of 64224 is part of my own collection.  The olive/khaki dope and varnish finish on U.S. Army 1920s aircraft was very glossy when first applied.  I can show lots of examples of that.  It turned flat with exposure to the elements.

BTW, there are several examples of Messengers with more color including at least one civilian machine.  Many of these machines were assigned to active squadrons as hacks and carried squadron insignia such as this example with the 43rd Pursuit, a fighter training unit.  
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DavidJP
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2015, 09:17:30 AM »

Hello Mark - so sorry not to have come back before but very many thanks. Yes quite shiny were n't they!  B it of a shame because I like to add weathering and a used appearance to conceal the blemishes I have caused in my finishing!! Hmmm... they had some fancy body art didn't they?
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DavidJP
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« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2015, 05:34:16 AM »

Here we are to date...... well almost.  All just pressed together so hence droopy wings etc.

This indoor business is rather more involved than meets the eye.... but on reflection that is to be expected.  I am receiving guidance from Graham Banham.  For which I am very grateful.

To a large degree I have been following the plan because that is what I do when I am in unknown territory.  As shown in the picture so far the weight is a fraction under 30gms.  Getting heavy it seems for the intended power source of a Voodoo 25!! OK no problem say I we will go for the voodoo 45 with more thrust!! Easy.  Nope - not the way.

It is an indoor model and so upping the power as one might in the case of an outdoor model does not work - to much energy for the restricted space.  And of course a bit of a Hobson's choice because bigger motor means bigger battery means higher wing loading which means a more robust flight characteristic and so on and so forth.

So it is the hard route - no choice.  Rather naively I have used (by habit) an Eric Coates tailplane - well only a gramme or two in it - yes but 2 gms at the tail means 1/2 kilo in the nose.  So that is going. Silly of me really.  Some of the other timbers as per plan are a bit hefty too but a bit of sanding is the only remedy. Should have used 1/16th for the longerons instead of 1/32nd!!

I am not daunted and very grateful that I am being warned as I go along because it increases the chances of producing a model that will fly a bit even if not well.........and the learning curve will I hope also be flattening out somewhat as well. Had we halls an acre or so in area of course all would be well but in the UK we don't.  So it is a challenge and one worth trying to overcome I feel otherwise everyone would be doing it?  It is though a very different science from the outdoor disciplines and light years from the r/c jobs where the wingspan is measured in feet rather than inches. 

Onwards then .... and I hope eventually upwards!!
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DavidJP
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2015, 05:43:52 AM »

Have in fact managed to get about 5gms off by a bit of butchery here and there which is a noticeable portion of the overall weight! And in the process am developing a completely new mindset.

Have been looking at the wheels which are huge (see Mark's post above) - and thus a challenge. Balsa ones seem only answer as am not into vac forming!
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DavidJP
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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2015, 09:28:56 AM »

Thought I would have a go at some wheels this morning and here is the result so far (rear and front faces).  From balsa of course turned up in my Unimat and given a coat of sanding sealer - talc and dope.  I am estimating that they will weigh about 1grm. each when finished (the cover will be from paper I think). Not light I know but am learning. The original blank weighed about 1.3gms and at least 40% has gone in sanding and shaping so shaving of any more will make it very fragile and not save any weight.  I am conscious though that with indoor 0.1gm is worth saving. 

The dowel mandrels will of course be cut off save for the axle housing.  I used these because the balsa is quite light and soft and needed a bit of beef to be held steady and (reasonably) true in the chuck.

On the original they are almost 2ft in diameter.
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DavidJP
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« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2015, 06:09:33 AM »

Will have to think about the paint scheme soon - no colour photos of the original of course but have got some from museums. 

Due to lighting etc. all seem a different shade of "Khaki" and I am not really sure what colour that is exactly anyway.  It seems to be not far off the RAF WWII dark earth but can anyone assist please. Have tried various sources but the US colours seem rather neglected.
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2015, 10:27:25 AM »

The American khaki is a glossier version of the British PC10.   Reference is The Official Monogram U.S. Army Air Service & Air Corps Aircraft Color Guide Vol. 1, 1908-1941 by Robert D. Archer.  In my experience, it varied quite a bit as did the British PC10 depending on manufacturer, substrate, number of coats, varnish top coats, etc.  The book mentioned has a color chip which closely matches a piece of fabric I have in my collection from an American DH-4.  It's definitely more green (olive) than RAF dark earth.
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DavidJP
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« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2015, 03:31:08 PM »

Thank you very much Mark.  I did wonder about the "olive" colour because had. Vague recollection from somewhere in the past. Heart help anyway. Another issue solved.
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DavidJP
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2015, 10:05:10 AM »

I had a target weight of 50gms but missing that by a mile or two!  But at least I know why - not enough attention to the intricies if building light! However further guidance from Professors Crossley & Banham it seems that the wing loading might be OK as it could be around 7.5/Dcm2.  This is due largely to the design - nice rectangular wings - lots of area.

Basically iI dumped everything I have so far on the scales (uncovered airframe, wheels, dummy engine, prop, motor, battery, zombie) and it came to 45gms.  I have allowed another 15gms for "finishing" so I hope won't exceed 60gms total. The Voodoo 25 May moan abit but fingers crossed.
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