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Author Topic: Hawker Tempest II, 1/24 scale rubber power.  (Read 10686 times)
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Prosper
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« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2014, 05:44:23 AM »

Thanks again, sparkle, have you decided to repair yours yet?

I've been doing a few nerve-wracking jobs on this one. I had to cut the former out of the tail section, split the tail section open along a seam, cut a wedge out, and glue it shut again, to reduce the circumference slightly where it mates with the rear fus. The difference in circumference was only a couple or three mm but that's enough to make a step between the two that sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb. The two sections are better matched now, and although I don't think I can make the join disappear, it shouldn't be too glaring (famous last words?).

It all sounds sensible and straightforward now I'm writing this a couple of days later, but it made me hop up and down at the time. I seem to have got away with it. The knife in the pic isn't so I can commit hara-kiri if it goes wrong, but to hack a crude expanded poystyrene form to slip into the tail section and provide a firm backing for the cutting and gluing.

Making the wing fillets has been setting my teeth on edge too. I'm only half way through that job :-0. There are tight radii and quite a bit of double curvature , so the force needed to get the fillet sections in place was plenty enough to crack stringers or distort formers if misdirected. Also, more than the usual ration of hands is required to keep it all steady and get it glued up. It's the same job as on the Fw190, but the Germans were kinder to modellers by contriving to make neat, simple fillets with very little double curvature. Anyway, What I've done so far has turned out OK. So I'm breathing easy for now.
 
Stephen.
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rgroener
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« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2014, 06:17:09 AM »

Prosper, your technique is very special and so is the look of the model. This seems the be the way for a perfect finish of a all metal plane.
I am intersted to see the finished model. Will follow closely.

Roman
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Pat D
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« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2014, 06:45:52 AM »

Watching with huge interest.

Great craftsmanship as ever..

Pat
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Prosper
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« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2014, 08:47:30 AM »

Thanks for the interest fellas, I appreciate it.

I think this aliphatic or cyano-coated balsa is a good way to represent metal or ply-covered aeroplanes too, which is why I've been chugging away at it so long. When I started modelling I thought I'd be building Golden Age classics, British lightplanes from the 1920s/30s and so on - instead I seem to be stuck with nasty warplanes! Trying to get an (nearly) opaque, stressed-skin look that wasn't unflyably heavy just kept nagging at me!

However it's early days yet. I've learned to produce the raw sheet material quite painlessly now, though it does take some time - 3-4 coats of glue are needed and each coat has to dry. Also the balsa has to be reduced from 1/32" to 0.3mm, this needs a vacuum cleaner or dust-extractor and takes time and practise to get a good result. I'm gonna ask my supplier if they can provide thinner wood.

The stuff I make now typically weighs 70gsm - that's the weight of printer paper, say, i.e. it's very heavy, but is a much superior product to paper for building with. I guess an equivalent S&T model might weigh only half as much, but wouldn't have the same look - the old trade-off, scale v.duration!

The aliphatic-coated balsa has very little resistance against splitting along the grain, once it is punctured. If something stabs through the sheet, crop stubble for instance, the split can progress until it meets an internal member. This doesn't happen with CA-coated wood.

This method doesn't produce a 'plastic-kit' style flawless surface - or at least I've never really achieved one yet Smiley.

Aliphatic-coated balsa can't really be sanded worth a damn. Thus if you join two components and the join is imperfect you can't sand the joint fair - or not very easily anyway. You may see evidence of this as the Tempest nears completion :-0.

This style of construction entails working with the outside skin of the model right from the outset of the build - this exposes the model for the fullest time to wear-and-tear during construction, in stark opposition to S&T modelling where the airframe can be made fair and then right at the end, a virgin sheet of tissue covering acts as a 'blank canvas' for the artist to get to work on. I reckon it's easier for an expert to get a flawless finish that way.

These are a few of the cons, but there are many pros too Smiley. Pardon a long post Smiley.


Stephen.
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2014, 10:23:01 AM »

Hi Stephen,

For me your builds read like a novel where you only get a chapter every so often.  It always makes my day when I get a new 'chapter'.

Great build.

Don
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Prosper
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« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2014, 01:52:36 PM »

Cheers as ever, Don, here's a very short chapter:

Been struggling a bit with the fillets, kinda got writer's builder's block, so I taped together another mockup to give me a boost - this time the only tape needed is a piece holding the spinner cap to the spinner, so it must be coming together!

Stephen.
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sparkle
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« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2014, 06:11:56 PM »

 Smiley That really captures the atmosphere! Gotta love the first time one sticks a new model together. Sadly  Sad  my Tempest is still glaring at me! but it's on the "to do" list!
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sparkle
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« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2014, 05:55:38 AM »

 Grin hi Steven, sorry to borrow your thread! Well it seems my to do list suddenly got shorter! The poor old girl is getting some battle damage fixed and I'm moving the motor peg forward to do away with the house brick in the nose!
     I have to say that the fully sheeted look is better. something to aspire too!
   
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Prosper
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« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2014, 11:20:53 AM »

Nice work sparkle, well worth repairing - doesn't look like too much work!  That looks like a scale tailplane, or nearly so. I'm a big fan of forward motor pegs, but TBH that's maybe because I have to be - my all-sheet models end up so heavy you have to do everything remotely possible to minimise noseweight. . . With both the Bf 109 and more recent Fw 190 I've made,  I've been using motors about 4x hook-to-peg distance. As OZPAF John said elsewhere, this is "pushing it a bit" Cheesy. Sometimes you get smooth motor runs, other times you get harsh vibration and uneven RPMs, and even a seized prop when the rubber jams in a great lump in the nose.

I've been nibbling away at this one, but I'm at the stage where you have a complete-looking airframe but realise that there's still any number of tasks left to tackle. I've decided to get the thing in some kind of flyable condition ASAP because time is pressing, and my neighbour's grass is getting rapidly back to the 'too-long-to-tramp-on' stage. When it's cropped that'll leave  a harsh grass stubble with hard bare patches - not what I want for test-flying this thing.

I said up the thread that I was confused about the pendulum issue, and the rudder makes this confusion even more complete. I think the fin area is much too large for the dihedral, and originally thought that I'd link the rudder to the pendulum. This looked too fiddly to achieve in such a small airframe though, so I decided to go for a floating rudder.

Trouble is, I didn't really know what a floating rudder is. If it's just a hinged, free-flopping rudder, then as far as I can see (not very far), then regardless of air forces acting on it, its weight will bias it one way or the other as soon as the model banks. This bias will be in the direction that exacerbates a spiral dive. To prevent this I thought I ought to mass-balance the rudder, but with the weight of this model marching upwards, that didn't seem a very good plan.

I've ended up with a bit of lead on a long stick ahead of the rudder. When the model banks this should cause the rudder to move in the direction causing a slipping turn (overbalanced rudder). The overbalance is so slight that it may be irrelevant v. air forces. This is ignoring centrifugal effects. The rudder can be made a fixed rudder if that seems necessary or preferable.

The whole assembly weighs 0.4g as seen. I've decided not to dope the rudder but to rely on the acrylic paint to fill the pores and give the tissue some proofing. Acrylic is not nearly as good as dope at this IMO, but at least this is right at the tail where there should be less wear and tear than further forward.

The Tempest has very large trim tabs on both elevators and rudder. I'm wondering if the movable rudder tab will act as a servo-tab - it would be very handy if it did.

Pic 2 shows the assembly. A few of the ribs have distorted as the tissue shrank. I think applying the acrylic paint will relax these - if it doesn't I'll re-cover the rudder at some point with a slacker covering. Pic 3 shows the hinges fixed to the fin post - scale positions of course Cheesy.

Stephen.
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Monz
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« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2014, 01:03:23 PM »

This whole build is great, love that rudder setup. Going to copy it for a model of mine if you don't mind Wink
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tom arnold
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« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2014, 01:39:10 PM »

I have put a free-flopping rudder on many of my planes and have had good luck with them. Normally I make a sheet balsa glider of whatever my subject is and cut the rudder off to make sure it still flys. The purpose is to allow the plane to climb more steeply before a roll off occurs. My hinges have been very limp fishing line or pins in a aluminum tube----whatever, they have allow the rudder to fall to either side on their own weight very easily. I have never found a built up rudder to be so heavy that it falls into the prop blast and causes a spiral, though.

The servo tab concept does work and I cannot figure out why, to tell the truth. If you make a little adjustable servo tab, bend it the OPPOSITE way you want the rudder to work (don't ask me how I finally figured this out). If you hold the model in a moving stream of air, you can see the rudder riding a little bit to one side. Here's the part that gets fuzzy, though. If the servo tab causes the rudder to yaw the model, then logic says you don't have a free floating rudder any more but fixed one of sorts, no? If that is the case, then the purpose of a free floater is negated, no? I don't know the answer.
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Prosper
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« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2014, 02:26:45 PM »

Hi Monique, 'course I don't mind, but be careful - if you mean copying the mass-balance bit, I've no real idea yet whether it works or is worthwhile in any meaningful way. If you mean the hinge bit, and you can see where one rudder-pin drops into a hole in a finpost bracket, and another rudder-pin clips into another finpost bracket, then be careful that the clip is made so that you can press the pin into place without over-stressing the surrounding structure, and yet be sure that no flight loads are going to cause it to come loose.

Tom, thanks for the reassurance. I kinda hope I can dispense with the balance weight - who needs lead in the tail of their model?

As for the servo tabbed-rudder, I see what you mean, if it exerts a force on the aeroplane it's attached to (causing it to yaw) then the rudder seems to be fixed in a way. It is: it's fixed by aerodynamic forces, and not by hydraulics or a pilot's big fat boot. I guess I'd call it a 'biased floating rudder'. The aerodynamic forces which bias it one way or the other act on the fin too because the air sees the fin/rudder as a single aerofoil, and with the rudder biased one way the camber of the whole foil has changed. That creates asymmetric lift, and that makes the whole plane yaw, and the genuinely free-floating (but biased) rudder says "cor, look what I did". Smiley. That's how I see it - maybe wrong. The deflection of the servo tab 'lifts' the rudder one way, creating camber of the fin/rudder which creates a much greater lift force, enough to yaw the whole shebang.

Regards,
Stephen.
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Monz
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« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2014, 03:46:36 PM »

Hi Monique, 'course I don't mind, but be careful - if you mean copying the mass-balance bit, I've no real idea yet whether it works or is worthwhile in any meaningful way. If you mean the hinge bit, and you can see where one rudder-pin drops into a hole in a finpost bracket, and another rudder-pin clips into another finpost bracket, then be careful that the clip is made so that you can press the pin into place without over-stressing the surrounding structure, and yet be sure that no flight loads are going to cause it to come loose.



Ja, the bold bit  Grin
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sparkle
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« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2014, 07:32:49 PM »

 Cheesy Hi Stephen, yes lots of discussion about rudder size etc.
 I went back to my build in 2010 and I there were similar discussions! In the end I think I reduced the fin, ( I can't find any reference to it though ) i know I would have given it a tiny bit more dihedral, (also the wings detach, wire in alum tubes, so they might bend a bit in flight giving me a bit more dihedral).
 Left/ right stability for me wasn't a problem from memory. Still some sort of moving rudder might be good if your fin is scale size.
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jym6aw6
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« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2014, 12:03:40 AM »

Absolutely fascinating model, as is usual with all of the Prosper builds I've seen  Smiley .

Question re "floating" rudders: some years back in some forum it was advised that floating rudders needed to flop only a few degrees max from either side of center. Apparently some sort of stops were built on the fin to limit rudder travel. Pretty sure it was less than 5 degrees.

Almost sure that Al Backstrom made the suggestion and I've searched for his post but to no avail, maybe it was on SFA or other.

Has anyone done this? It seemed counter-intuitive to me, but what do I know?  Roll Eyes  Grin


Jim (6aw6)
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OZPAF
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« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2014, 02:31:34 AM »

How did I miss this? Another fascinating build and more pendulum and now servo tab operated floating rudders explained in detail. What more could you want?

Fascinating.
John
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DHnut
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« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2014, 02:58:03 AM »

Hi Stephen,
                 As usual a really interesting build. Sitting in my workshop is a 27" Tempest V built to the KK plan.It is done in the colours and markings of 486 Sqn who had the code SA so mine is SAM! One of those that Doug McHard found, and Lindsey Smith built some while ago. His has flown but I am not sure how well and what the trim was. I have managed to get mine gliding, but for some reason I put it away after initial power flights that I seem to remember were starting to power stall. I think the choice of a four bladed plastic prop may not have been wise either and the engineering of the nose block may also be not ideal to cope with an arrival. The weight was in the 90 grm region and the nose is sheeted back to the wing, together with an undercarriage that is on the flimsey side. Now the floppy rudder debate has started me thinking that it might be worthwhile looking at it again.
     Ricky
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Prosper
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« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2014, 06:35:21 AM »

. . .for some reason I put it away after initial power flights. . .
Ha! So that's at least two Tempests that this thread has shooed out of the cupboard! Sparkle's one looks good to go, to me - if I had a model with that much 'battle damage' I'd still be flying it as it is Grin.

Jim, my rudder does indeed have about 5 deg travel either side - this is dictated by the freedom of movement of the balance bar that extends into the rear fus. more than by any calculation or experience, but I could see how a rudder that was allowed to deflect too far might stall the whole fin.

Well folks, this model has flown. Inadvisedly, since the wings were held on with masking tape, various large items like the canopy were missing, the pendulum system had no stops so it could potentially fly round 360 deg and mangle the pushrods, and a few other things invalidating its C. of A. However, I have to focus on non-modelling matters for a spell, and I thought I'd give this one the dignity of at least tasting the air!

I fixed up the prop assembly. Perhaps foolishly I fixed the thrust button in place with lots of right thrust. Looked at in side elevation the button is about half-way along the spinner, so tilting it 5 deg moves the base of the spinner a good distance off-centre. This looks silly from some angles, and necessitated carving chunks off each blade root to clear the cowling. The prop disc diameter is scale! If this thing ever achieves sustained flight, I think a scale prop disc is good in terms of overall flying realism.

I made a T-hook. Separating the strands of a braided motor to get them over each arm was not easy, but I suspect it's a knack that can be developed.

The motor peg is held internally. I did this with my Fw 190 model, and although there's less access in the case of the Tempest, getting the motor anchored is still easier than prodding around with stuffing sticks while squinting down the fuselage Smiley. All that's needed externally is two very small holes to slide the stooge-wire through.

To stop the motor, peg and all, smashing into the rear fuselage in the case of a burst motor, two small pins need to be slid through the balsa motor-peg retainers. This is easy with the Fw 190 where removing the canopy+fairing effectively takes the top off the rear fus. It could be fiddly with the Tempest. These flights used a few hand-winds only so these were omitted.

Basic airframe weight is 26g, and about 3.5g of that is pendulum gubbins. The prop/hub assembly weighs 6.5g and I stuck in 7.5g of 1/4" rubber. This gave a flying weight of 40g and a CG at 27% m.a.c. with no noseweight needed. I didn't make the nose any heavier than I thought necessary - I think the good balance is down to the heavy prop/hub and good luck in keeping the tail light. I now hope for a final weight when paint, canopy and all details are added of less than 45g.

I taped up the ailerons and made a couple of short glides, which showed that a fair bit of down-elevator was needed. Then several flights of between 60-100 turns with taped ailerons. It was windy, but the model seemed very wayward all the same. It was impossible to guess what was going on really, but alarmingly, if it stalled it would yaw dramatically, almost seeming to yaw round its own vertical axis :-0. Then I untaped the ailerons. Several more flights suggested to me that the model flies better with active ailerons than without - but, it still wandered round in a mystifying fashion. One long hop was nice and stable - but with massively crossed-controls so it did an exaggerately crabbed flight that looked like it was a slow pass at an airshow :-0. The good news is that it can fly for at least 5 seconds Grin.

Anyway, perhaps I can squeeze a few more flights if the breeze calms down this evening. Things might click into place, but I rather suspect that even if this thing's trimmable at all, it's going to be a pig. When I trimmed the little Piper Vagabond I rebuilt recently I was secretly a tiny bit disappointed at how absurdly easy it was to trim, and kind of hankered for a bit more of a challenge - they say be careful what you wish for!

Stephen.
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sparkle
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« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2014, 06:51:35 AM »

Love the red spinner! Cool  i also like the internal motor peg. neat!
Well my Tempest was back in skies today  Grin and flew nicely after moving the motor peg forward and loosing some lead in the nose!  Needs alittle more glide, which i fixed, but then ran out of light!  Roll Eyes
  Stephen,i'm sure yours just needs to be spoken to nicely!  Kiss Kiss
 well Ricky it looks like its up to you now!  Wink
 ( see how many smiley faces one can put in a single post!)  Wink
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Prosper
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« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2014, 04:10:44 AM »

( see how many smiley faces one can put in a single post!)  Wink

Sparkle, you are, and always will be, the uncontested HPA smiley-face champ as far as I'm concerned Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley. Glad the model's back flying!

The breeze did drop a good bit last evening and I had the chance for a few chucks.

In my haste to get it flying at all yesterday morning I had skipped essential pre-takeoff checks! I didn't spot that it was 'taking off' with the prop pitch fully coarse - P.O. Prune would be proud of me Smiley. It occurred to me that a model with too-coarse pitch will wander round in a muddled and arbitrary-seeming way (I've seen this before) - perhaps that was the problem?

I twisted the blades to a lower pitch at the tips, and also reset the aileron bias so that the ailerons were completely level when the model was level. Then (in much calmer air) the model started to fly. There's a new pre-takeoff 'vital action': Controls - FULL AND FREE IN THE CORRECT SENSE Cheesy.

Since it was now behaving more like a model should, I got a video of the last flight of four. With such short hops a good bit of the flight is spent getting the camera on target, but FWIW;

http://youtu.be/pqpbMYrezKs

That's 10 sec from 200 turns. I don't like models turning right - kinda makes me a bit seasick, so I'll be reducing right thrust probably, but I need to learn more about the effects of rudder and ailerons first. By this last flight it had lost its rudder servo tab in the grass somewhere. Despite Youtube pixelation you might see tiny twitches, which in the original video can be linked to aileron deflections. Whether this is valuable response to disturbances or just artefact caused by motor vibration, or something else, I don't know, but the motor was running very smoothly. In theory the less visible the response the better - although then you're left wondering if there was any upset to respond to in the first place! Last night I watched film of an RAF Tornado negotiating the Welsh valleys at 200ft with its terrain-following radar. The tailerons were shivering this way and that at the heck of a rate, and the 'plane was steady as a rock.

Now I have to put the Tempest to one side for a week or three. Maybe no bad thing - I've been rushing it too fast. There's a whole list of things I've forgotten to do - I need to step back, survey the whole thing and do a fair bit of work before trying to paint it.

Stephen.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2014, 05:29:42 AM »

Stephen - can you not just tape up the control surfaces temporarily and see what happens? I did this on my SPAD, and it stopped flying.
It's definitely flying, isn't it.
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« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2014, 06:31:22 AM »

Stephen,
            Will the right thrust be needed when the torque increases as the turns on the motor are increased? The response to aileron may be rapid because the inertia's are small in relation to the control forces being applied, just a thought.
Sparke, I take your point but there is a trip to Sydney in July for the NSW And Trans Tasman event and as usual too much to do so the Tempest will have to wait. Also the weather has turned wet windy and cool.
  Ricky
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Prosper
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« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2014, 07:46:22 AM »

Bill, I will do this when I have the chance to fly it again, pref. when it's flying over long grass. It's quite possible that it could have managed such a low-torque flight with locked controls, given the light breeze. I suspect it would have slipped into a spiral though. It's only when I increase turns significantly that things will become clearer.

Hi Ricky, yes I expect it will still need some right thrust, but I think I bunged in too much. I would guess that under full power with the right thrust it's got, it would want to fly more or less straight - probably good in terms of stability and duration, but bad in terms of hitting things! I did rig the ailerons to have plenty of deflection per bank angle - the only thing is that I don't know how much this is reduced by aerodynamic forces on them. Since the model looks now as if it will turn out decently light (or do I mean not catastrophically overweight), then perhaps I can add some more weight to the pendulum if necessary, which ought to increase 'control authority' further.

Stephen.
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sparkle
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« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2014, 08:13:33 AM »

 Grin Video flight looks promising! Cool
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tom arnold
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« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2014, 10:16:11 AM »

Excellent trim flight and it looks like the pendulum is working fine with the little wiggles to keep things upright. I would say everything is right on the way it is----more turns may show problems but I say things look great the way they are. The wiggles come with the pendulum and show it is working, to my way of thinking.

Don't be gone too long as this is a great thread!
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