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Author Topic: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18  (Read 2557 times)
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Starduster
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« on: July 10, 2014, 08:47:15 PM »

All

I was going through my stack of drawings last night and cleaning out drawings.

I found my drawing of Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18. This airplane was flown in 1960.

I did this drawing way back in the 1990's in CAD, but I no longer have the files.

So, the question is:

If there is sufficient interest, I will take my paper down to my local Kinkos/FEDEX, have them (there are two sheets) scanned and upload the .pdf into the plans gallery.

So, what say you? Is it worth it?

Thanks

Rich

BTW - Giving the airplane another look after all these years, I am thinking about building one over the winter, but building it for electric.
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monocoupe110
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2014, 02:39:02 AM »

I would download them!

Cheers, Nigel  Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2014, 02:42:45 PM »

That would be my vote, too!

JB
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Starduster
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2014, 07:15:02 PM »

I've up-loaded the drawing. I was not able to combine the two .pdf's, so there are two files to up=load. Give Ratz a while to approve and take a look.

The drawing is full-size.
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2014, 11:37:19 AM »

Thanks for sharing Iceman!

Cheers, Nigel
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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2014, 12:15:11 AM »

Iceman,

I'm late on this but thanks for the offer as well. I'll look for it at the Gallery.

Bill
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2014, 01:21:35 AM »

You're going to have to go some to get one ready for Tangent, Bill!

JB
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2014, 12:26:34 AM »

John,

Wish I could but in this case, wishes are horses. I'll be there to CD and with a re-covered Altmann and some other stuff, but no Vint entry. It's on my list though, and working its way up.

Brings my best,

Bill

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Starduster
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 02:22:35 PM »

Question for you power guys regarding the #18:

I see on the sketches (from the sketches attached) that the wing is at positive 3 (or 4) degree incidence, and the horizontal stab is at positive 1 (or 2) degrees decalage.

Is this so the airplane glides in a nose-down attitude? I've never seen a set up quite like this (Rather high angle of attack on the wing and a positive angle of attack on the stab) Why didn't he just go with 1 or 2 degrees incidence and a little negative decalage?

I'm just curious.

Thanks

Rich
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
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Starduster
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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2014, 03:08:07 PM »

Gentlemen and Ladies

I need some advice:

I am re-creating the Number 18 in 3D CAD. I was looking a little more carefully at the drawing I up-loaded to the Plans Gallery and comparing it to the two sketches attached in the above post, I saw that there are a few things that I would like to clean-up. (I don't think I got the airfiols quite right and the horizontal stab outline is a bit off.

So, a couple questions:

1) Of the two sketches shown above (one from Zaic and the other from Volar Libremente, which would you say is more accurate (true to the original)
2) There is no mention of the thickness of the wing or stab ribs. I would think that the stab uses 2.5mm Balsa, but 2.5mm seems thin for this size wing.

Thanks

Rich

And by the way... Once I get done with the new CAD Model and drawing, the plan right now is Bob Holman will be offering the short-kit for the airplane!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 03:35:17 PM by Iceman1007 » Logged

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Starduster
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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2014, 03:42:56 PM »

Looking at the CAD Model, though, it looks like 2.5mm for the wing ribs is OK:

Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2014, 07:42:43 PM »

Rich, I feel that 2.5mm ribs would be overkill, especially for the stabiliser.

I'd use 1/16" - 1.5mm - all through, especially as there's quite a lot of wood in that wing
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2014, 07:57:24 PM »

Rich, I feel that 2.5mm ribs would be overkill, especially for the stabiliser.

I'd use 1/16" - 1.5mm - all through, especially as there's quite a lot of wood in that wing

I agree with you, thanks!
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RobinB
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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2014, 02:30:46 PM »

Ribs and riblets are 2mm. Diagonals are 3 x 3 mm. Main spar 15 x 10 mantya (spruce?)
Stab ribs and riblets are 1.5 mm. Stab spars 3 x 3 mm.

Robin
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« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2014, 04:08:40 PM »

Ribs and riblets are 2mm. Diagonals are 3 x 3 mm. Main spar 15 x 10 mantya (spruce?)
Stab ribs and riblets are 1.5 mm. Stab spars 3 x 3 mm.

Robin


You sound pretty confident... can I ask where you are getting your information? (not doubting you, just curious...)

Also, you say "Diagonals are 3 X 3 mm" Are you saying the diagonal ribs are not full depth airfoils, but just 3 X 3 mm? (see the attached picture)

Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2014, 03:35:09 AM »

I have a copy of the plan. One of the people who started the Cranfield Classic contests
sells plans of the 5 models.
I think it is George Arnott, but I'm not sure. Anybody?

Robin
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billdennis747
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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2014, 03:47:31 AM »

Google Allan Brown Cranfield Classic plans
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Starduster
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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2014, 08:06:37 AM »

I can't find anything on George Arnott or Allen Brown Cranfield Classic Plans.

My intention is to make this CAD Model and drawing as accurate (faithful to the original) as possible.

So far, I have a couple of questions:

1) Are the diagonals in the wing full-depth ribs, or are they 3 X 3 square stock?

2) Looking at the sketch from Volar Libremente, take a look at the attached picture of the airfoils.

on both the wing and stab ribs, it appears to me that the spars are embedded in the ribs. But... there are two short lines that go from the cross-hatched spar to the top of the airfoil (except for the forward spar of the stab rib). I'm not sure how to interpret this.

(BTW - I am going to ignore the Zaic stab rib drawing, it looks like the extra spars were added later, see the second picture)
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
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billdennis747
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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2014, 08:16:16 AM »

http://www.sam1066.org/nc1110.pdf

Contains Allan's email address
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2014, 08:26:17 AM »

Hi

I'm mates with Allan Brown.  He ran a Cranfield Classic a couple of times at the BMFA FF Nats a few years back.  The Scottish lads (Jim Arnott) run one every year up there.    I think you're mixing names between AllanB and George Blair who is another well known modeller and one of the Scottish boys.

Anyway ... seems like an awful lot of effort to CAD the plans when you can probably get them off AllanB.  Check out the SAM1066.  http://www.sam1066.org/nc1209.pdf
Also, in one of the Clarions John Thompson did a write up of his No18.

In the meantime ... here is a couple of pics of the real thing.  Engine is an OS19 Max (Nelson Head and pressure venture\NVA from Ed Needham)
I'll dig out weights and trims if anyones interested .. mine goes OK but I'm about to re-engine with a Norvel 15 BB (Nelson Head and pressure venture\NVA from EdN again).  Does just under 23K on an APC 7x4.

Cheers

Mike

Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2014, 08:38:44 AM »

Thanks, Bill and Mike

The (main) reason I'm doing the CAD model is to get a LASER kit done. (Besides the fact that up until this morning, I was unaware that anyone else had done the full-size drawing). As I mentioned above, Bob Holman has agreed to offer the short kit. I love the look of elliptical airplanes, but man-o-man I hate cutting out ribs for them!

I am also "hooked" on electrics, and I am planning on building a No. 18 for electric ("Burn him! He's a witch, burn him!")

Mike, can you do me a favor, though? Can you ask Allan if he has any heart-ache with me doing the plans and offering them for sale through Bob Holman?

A few pictures of the complete wing 3D CAD Model:
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2014, 08:48:49 AM »

Hi

don't worry about the electric thing ... they're working on a cure.

Yeah ... I can ask AllanB but I'm not sure he owns the rights or anything.

Cheers

Mike
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2014, 10:34:07 AM »

Suomen Ilmailuliitto (the Finnish Aviation Federation) published in early 1960's a book called "Suuri Lennokkikirja" (The big book of model airplanes), where the section of FF power models was written by mr. Pimenoff himself. The article also has a small drawing of the #18. In the picture the diagonals are marked to be 3*3mm, and it seems that they are slightly thicker than the ribs. Also there is another picture of wing structure, where the text mentions that the forward end of diagonals should be glued as high as possible, and the aft end as low as possible. This seems to suggest to me that the diagonals are indeed square. (I think the original #18 is at display at the Aviation Museum in Helsinki Airport, so I could go and check. However I think that mr. Pimenoff has restored the model with new, opaque covering, which would make it impossible to check the structure...)

The last picture from the book shows a launch of a D-2 power model, and from the rudder shape I conclude that the model is #18, so I think the picture is of mr. Pimenoff himself.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
Re: Sandy Pimenoff's Number 18
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Starduster
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2014, 11:01:02 AM »

Thanks, Tapio

That drawing from the book and your explanation answers my questions. It looks like neither the Zaic or the Volar Libremente got it quite right.

It's interesting that the drawing in the book shows a built-up vertical stab.

Also, I can't quite make it out, but does the drawing or the article mention the incidence and/or the decalage angles?

I'll have to go back and change a few things in the CAD model....

Rich
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2014, 11:08:16 AM »



on both the wing and stab ribs, it appears to me that the spars are embedded in the ribs. But... there are two short lines that go from the cross-hatched spar to the top of the airfoil (except for the forward spar of the stab rib). I'm not sure how to interpret this.


I would say the spars are dropped in and the gap filled with little bits of balsa. Much easier build.
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