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Author Topic: Sorely tempted by a 2.49 (.15) PAW  (Read 1629 times)
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Starduster
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« on: September 29, 2014, 08:42:29 AM »

Good Gentles:

Very soon I will be posting a build thread for a new laser short kit for the Pimenoff Number 18. I will be building an electric version, but I am very tempted to also build one and put a PAW 2.49 (.15) on the front, just in case I get the itch to fly it in FAI Vintage Power.

Looking at what's available, it looks like Carlson Engine Imports has two versions, a plain bearing and a single bearing. So, the question is: is the single bearing worth the extra $14.00 (yes, I am a cheapskate)

Thanks

Rich
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billdennis747
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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2014, 10:00:06 AM »

The BB engine is rated on the PAW website as .38 bhp compared to .33. I think they would also say the BB is easier starting but I've had a PB 15 and 19 and they both started very quickly. Prime, hit it, it's going
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Konrad
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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2014, 10:10:07 AM »

The PAW is a very nice handling diesel. They are well worth the price.  

Now are ball bearings worth the added price? For the sport flier the answer is no. Sleeve bearing are more than adequate for most of the accessories that spin 40K rpm on full size turbine engines. They surely are well suited to our toy engines that will see less the 20K rpm. Properly designed sleeve bearing can outperform ball bearings. And the sleeve bearings in the PAW are properly designed. So the answer to your question is no to the ball bearing.

Now there is another concern, and that is resale value. Ball bearing engines will command more than the $15 premium you paid when the engine was new. Since I buy my engines with the idea that I will be buried with them. I place little value on the resale market. These are toys not financial instruments. That having been said, invest in quality. The PAW is one such quality product.

All the best,
Konrad

P.S.
Bill adds a good point. The ball bearing engine may have added performance enhancements. Such as porting that improves the higher rpm band power figures. An improvement of 0.05HP is not something to ignore.
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Starduster
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2014, 10:27:11 AM »

Just taking a look at the rules for Vintage FAI Power (NFFS Website: http://freeflight.org/Competition/NFFS%20Competition%20Rules%202013_2014%20Rel2.pdf pages 10 - 12) It is not clear to me if the PAW .15 is legal for the event.

Care to chime in?
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2014, 10:46:40 AM »

Regrettably I suspect not. The Eifflander Special was made by Gig Eifflander before he introduced the PAW range of diesels. However, I seem to recall reading that PAW made a batch of repro Eifflander Specials in recent years, and from the rules these appear to be allowed - likely expensive though  Sad
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« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2014, 10:51:43 AM »

Have own a bunch of PAW's (2.5's and .19's) All were easy starting and well mannered. The 2.5bb was my favourite and best starting of the lot. I'd only say remember not to under-prop it - they won't enjoy it much.
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Konrad
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2014, 10:57:01 AM »

Cheapskate and competitor, aren't these mutually exclusive terms?  Huh

If you have aspiration to compete with the engine, go with the ball bearing 2.49. Not for the bearing but for the reported added power.
$14 is insignificant to the effort needed to put forth a competitive model.

What "Vintage class" are you looking to fly the model. PAW may be able to tell you the date when the design of a particular engine was originally offered for sale to the public.
http://www.eifflaender.com/index.htm

All the best,
Konrad
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Red Buzzard
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2014, 11:15:52 AM »

Hi Ice,

Glad to hear of your coming thread on the #18. It appears your development of the plan is complete? I'm still interested in the plan as well as a possible kit.

On the issue of the PAW in Vint FAI, I think you are on firm ground. The model would put you in V-3 due to the 1960 date and the PAW as a product was available before that. So I would say V-3 with the PAW would be a go. The engines are well spoken of elsewhere, but only being a diesel novice I hesitate to go further.

The earlier post speaks to the Eifflander being legal for NOSTALGIA which cuts off at 12/56. Dunkin's Reference Book of International .15s shows a PAW Mk. II produced from 1952 - 1957, with a Mk. III produced from 1959 - 1964. Both the Mk. II and the Mk. III are listed as single ball bearing. From the photos, the primary difference between a Mk. II and a Mk. III appears to be the prop driver. There are several other, later, versions distinguished by crank diameter and venturi shape.

So it appears a PAW Mk. II would work for both Nostalgia and Vint FAI but a Mk. III would be out for Nostalgia while appropriate for your #18 in V-3. The difference in all the date mumbo jumbo is Nostalgia ends in 12/56 while Vintage FAI goes on a lot later depending on the engine/model combination. Again, there are probably others who could debate the issue.

Bill
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Starduster
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2014, 11:35:34 AM »

Hi Ice,

Glad to hear of your coming thread on the #18. It appears your development of the plan is complete? I'm still interested in the plan as well as a possible kit.

On the issue of the PAW in Vint FAI, I think you are on firm ground. The model would put you in V-3 due to the 1960 date and the PAW as a product was available before that. So I would say V-3 with the PAW would be a go. The engines are well spoken of elsewhere, but only being a diesel novice I hesitate to go further.

The earlier post speaks to the Eifflander being legal for NOSTALGIA which cuts off at 12/56. Dunkin's Reference Book of International .15s shows a PAW Mk. II produced from 1952 - 1957, with a Mk. III produced from 1959 - 1964. Both the Mk. II and the Mk. III are listed as single ball bearing. From the photos, the primary difference between a Mk. II and a Mk. III appears to be the prop driver. There are several other, later, versions distinguished by crank diameter and venturi shape.

So it appears a PAW Mk. II would work for both Nostalgia and Vint FAI but a Mk. III would be out for Nostalgia while appropriate for your #18 in V-3. The difference in all the date mumbo jumbo is Nostalgia ends in 12/56 while Vintage FAI goes on a lot later depending on the engine/model combination. Again, there are probably others who could debate the issue.

Bill

Thanks for the info, Bill. I've wanted to build and fly a high-performance diesel Freeflight for quite a while.

The plan/laser kit for the 18 is pretty much done. I will be building the prototype to check for errors, then making any corrections. I suspect the short kit will be available from Bob Holman in a month or so. I am very happy with the way it turned out. I used three different sources (Zaic, Volar Libremente and the book image from Tapio)

The whole engine debate is probably moot, anyway. I doubt there will be any Vintage FAI contests close enough for me to get to.
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2014, 12:36:10 PM »

Hi Ice,

Good news on the plan/kit front. Bob turns out a quality product.

I am with the Willamette Modelers Club in Oregon. We have a very nice, fun Vintage FAI contest about mid August. About 15 contestants come from California, Washington, Idaho and Canada as well as Oregon. As I don't know your geography, let me at least extend the invitation. Though I am in Roseburg, OR, the contests are flown on grass fields in the Tangent/Albany area, about 100 miles north of me.

You can see photos and the write-up in the club newsletter at the Willamette Modelers Club website. Enjoy.

Bill
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Red Buzzard
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2014, 12:56:35 PM »

Incidentally, Ice, I just looked at Carlson (haven't been there for awhile so thanks) and the PAW shown in his photograph is a pretty late version. Dunkin shows the change to an angled venturi, as opposed to vertical, started in about 1980. Also, double ball bearings showed up in 1981 while plain bearings in a similar case did not show up until 1999(?). The question mark is his, not mine. Which version, exactly, Carlson shows I don't know.

I guess if you want one for Vint FAI you can get one on the 'Bay. They are fairly frequently seen there.

B.
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2014, 02:47:32 PM »

I think a current plain or single ball race PAW would be 'close enough' for Vintage FAI Power. We currently allow OS Max III 15 for Era 2 or 3, and the PAW design hasn't changed enough to be treated differently - in my opinion, that is.

The quoted power is about where an Oliver Tiger III would have been.

But a PAW 2.49 CT2 (or whatever it's called) with twin ball races, Tony Eifflander's 'special' attention, and rated at 0.6 bhp at 20,000 rpm - now that might cause a few of the Vintage FAI die-hards to lodge an objection  Cheesy

John
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Starduster
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« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2014, 07:37:22 AM »

One more favor, please...

Can someone who has a new(er) PAW 2.49 measure the distance between the mounting holes (Side to side and fore and aft) and let me know? I'll probably be building the fuselage before I actually have the engine in my hands, so I want to make sure the engine mounts are close enough (I'm planning on staying true to the original and mounting the engine sideways on two hardwood rails)

Thanks again

Rich

(BTW - The measurements do not have to be super accurate, +/- 2.0 mm would be fine. I'm not going to drill the holes or trim the rails until I get the engine)
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Red Buzzard
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« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2014, 10:37:21 AM »

Hi John,

I wonder if we might suggest a PAW with the vertical venturi and single ball race would be more in the ballpark than the angled venturi model? And, I can't accomodate Ice's request for mount spacing. I don't have one in hand, though I did at one time. Can you measure-up one? Or maybe one of the engine tests has a mount diagram?

Bill
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« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2014, 10:52:02 AM »

Hi John,

I wonder if we might suggest a PAW with the vertical venturi and single ball race would be more in the ballpark than the angled venturi model? And, I can't accomodate Ice's request for mount spacing. I don't have one in hand, though I did at one time. Can you measure-up one? Or maybe one of the engine tests has a mount diagram?

Bill

Hi Bill

I would not mind at all going with the vertical venturi, but... I absolutely refuse to buy anything on e-bay, so unless I can find one elsewhere, I'm just going to go with a new .15.

Rich
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billdennis747
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« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2014, 11:45:32 AM »

Just email PAW - they are very helpful
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« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2014, 12:17:09 PM »

Hi Ice,

I completely understand about the 'Bay. Might I suggest the English controlline site <http://controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/index.php> if you really want to find out about diesels, etc. It is just GREAT! They also have "items wanted" and "items for sale" sections as well as "engine talk" that are quite lively. Of course the very lively Stuka Stunt site <http://www.clstunt.com/> offers a classified section but diesels are not exactly hot items in the states.

So there are other resources as well as PAW itself. You'll do fine.

Bill
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Laurence Marks
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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2014, 01:01:19 PM »

I can confirm that PAW are nice to deal with - I just bought a 2.5 plain bearing motor for a KK Phantom..
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« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2014, 01:24:05 PM »

Quote
Can someone who has a new(er) PAW 2.49 measure the distance between the mounting holes (Side to side and fore and aft) and let me know?

Rich,

not certain if this helps but my old 249 (over 35 years old) measured across the crankcase to start of the mounting lugs is 1 inch or 1.5cm in new money.

from the rear of the crankcase to the start of the lugs is 1 inch 7/16"
from the rear of the crankcase to the end of the lugs is 1/16"

see pics

Roger



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Re: Sorely tempted by a 2.49 (.15) PAW
Re: Sorely tempted by a 2.49 (.15) PAW
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billdennis747
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« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2014, 01:29:40 PM »

I can confirm that PAW are nice to deal with - I just bought a 2.5 plain bearing motor for a KK Phantom..
I thought you were going to say it was for the Tailwind.
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Laurence Marks
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« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2014, 05:24:29 PM »

Hopefully the tw won't need that much grunt.  The 2.5 would go in the cowling though!!
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« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2014, 08:54:44 PM »

not certain if this helps but my old 249 (over 35 years old) measured across the crankcase to start of the mounting lugs is 1 inch or 1.5cm in new money.
Duu.uuh!

Never quite sure about new money but the last time I checked, 1 inch was a bit over 2.5cm  Huh
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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2014, 11:36:45 PM »

Measuring from my 249 PB, (a newer sloped venturi model)-the mounting holes are spaced at 33mm crosswise and 23.35mm fore and aft (accurate measurements taken with a digital calipers). Crankcase clearance (ie your required bearer spacing) is 26mm.  That being said-I doubt this model of PAW is eligible for the class.........the earlier vertical venturi one certainly is....

 ChrisM
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« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2014, 09:18:52 AM »

Measuring from my 249 PB, (a newer sloped venturi model)-the mounting holes are spaced at 33mm crosswise and 23.35mm fore and aft (accurate measurements taken with a digital calipers). Crankcase clearance (ie your required bearer spacing) is 26mm.  That being said-I doubt this model of PAW is eligible for the class.........the earlier vertical venturi one certainly is....

 ChrisM
 'ffkiwi'
And a clean vert. venturi one just went  to a new owner on the Ger. fleabay site from a collector.  Looked brand spanking new.  I was thinking of bidding, but I have NO need for a 249 (looking for a 0.5 to 1.5 in good running condition).
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« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2014, 09:47:54 AM »

Pitt,

PM me if you have an interest in a MVVS 1.5 vint. 1958.

Bill
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