Logo
Builders' Plan Gallery  |  Hip Pocket Web Site  |  Contact Forum Admin (Account/Technical Issues)  |  Contact Global Moderator
October 25, 2021, 11:27:12 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with email, password and session length
 
Home Help Search Login Register
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: What to do with old javelin style kits?  (Read 1541 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
shuyge
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 1
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 31

Topic starter


Ignore
« on: December 14, 2015, 05:49:10 PM »

So I left the hobby roughly 10 years ago and haven't done any building in the interim.  As such, I've got some old javelin style kits laying around that I'm wondering what to do with.
The inventory looks like this:

1 Original Len Surtees produced Sting junior 15
2 Original Len Surtees produced Sting 21
1 Original Len Surtees produced Sting 24
1 Original Len Surtees produced Butterfly
1 Original Len Surtees produced Toucan
1 Dare Ibis
1 Groupner Slipper


I was thinking that it would be possible to convert the Butterfly and Toucan to TLG seeing as how they already implement the butterfly tail configuration.
I'm also thinking of straight up building the Sting 24 since I miss that last one that I build (lost to a failed DT).
Also, I just turned 50.  While I'm sure that I can still throw an HLG, any serious flying would be with the MMM in Denver and I wouldn't stand a chance with a javelin style HLG up there.

What do you guys think?
Any ideas?

Stan
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 06:56:38 PM by shuyge » Logged
shuyge
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 1
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 31

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2015, 04:29:28 PM »

54 lookers and no responses.

Ok, how about this..

Has anybody attempted a TLG conversion on a Butterfly or Toucan?
Any gotchas that I need to know?
Logged
Ployd
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 19
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 303




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2015, 06:48:37 PM »

Being familiar with the Surtees kits I would just build them as they are and enjoy flying them for fun's sake. You could try the Butterfly and Toucan as TLG's and would suggest that you view a couple of the Japanese videos on Facebook to see how they fly converted side arm launched models to the new launch method.

Ployd in OZ
Logged

"So I collect engines, what's your problem?"
shuyge
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 1
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 31

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2015, 06:54:28 PM »

Thanks Peter.

BTW, is there any chance of you releasing the plans for the Katamax and Epsilon?  I always liked the look of those two.

Stan
Logged
HoveToo
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 0
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 73



Ignore
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2015, 04:16:09 AM »

Stan,
I bought a Butterfly kit from Flitehook here in the UK and it is described as a TLG in the instructions. The only change I made was to add a layer of lightweight glass cloth from the tip to 1" inside of the outer dihedral joint on the throwing grip side. This from looking at other TLG plans on this site.

For the others, the 15" one will easily convert to a catapult launch assuming it does not have a butterfly tail. Again hook and grip placement can be seen in the CLG plans. The 21" might work as a CLG depending on its weight and how much rubber you use, otherwise the rest are potential TLGs.

Cheers, Ian
Logged
lincoln
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 38
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,549



Ignore
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2015, 12:21:41 AM »

If you want to just fly for fun, it's amazing how much zip you can give to a glider with a couple of foot long rubber loop at the top of a 6 foot pole. Just make sure the model is strong and no one is around to hit. Roll rate can be very high with this kind of launch. I did this with a profile Yak 15 for an event in Glastonbury, MA many years ago. Once I got the model trimmed out and stopped scaring people, the launches were amazing. That particular model was heavy and didn't turn all that well, so it would take 30 or 40 seconds making a very large turn.  I'm sure with persistence, it could have been much better. Unfortunately, it was stuck in a tree over a stream when I went to watch the prizes awarded, and it was gone when I came back.
Logged
sweepettelee
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 20
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,311


Simplicate & add more lightness. Keep sanding!



Ignore
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2015, 01:17:38 PM »

When in 2006 began the advent of TLG style chuck glider, I saw the revolution first hand and modified my last two Sweepette 22 HLGs
by changing them to Y tail config.  That worked out well, in fact.  I even won first time out in breezy, turbulent conditions.
Tim Batiuk & Stan Buddenbohm had shown the way with their early & quick conversions of existing javelin HLGs.
You have good starting kits to work with, so let us know how you get on with them.
Logged

Leeper
shuyge
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 1
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 31

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2015, 03:04:29 PM »

Thanks Lee!

From what I've been able to gather, I need to convert to a Y tail configuration and set the incidence to about +2 degrees.
I will probably also need to ensure that it stays together.  Grin

Does that pretty much cover it?

Stan
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 03:25:41 PM by shuyge » Logged
sweepettelee
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 20
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,311


Simplicate & add more lightness. Keep sanding!



Ignore
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2015, 03:16:20 PM »

Yes, except for stab skew, slight right fin setting & CG forward somewhat.  Also swap washin tab from left to right wing(outside of dihedral joint).
A bit of right tilt is usually helpfull & may aid transition.

Structural integrity is in your hands!  Shocked
Logged

Leeper
shuyge
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 1
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 31

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2015, 03:24:36 PM »

Ah yes, I did forget to mention the swapped left/right trim configuration.

slight right fin setting (implied by swapped trim)
CG forward somewhat (implied by +2 degrees incidence)
swap wash-in tab (implied by swapped trim)

right tilt - Stab tilt? - (should also be implied by swapped trim as stab tilt is useful to help trim the glide circle as it has no/little effect at high speed)  Good to know that I will probably need some though.

The only part that I'm left confused about from your post is the start 'Yes, except for stab skew'
What specifically do you mean by this part Lee?


Stan
Logged
sweepettelee
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 20
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,311


Simplicate & add more lightness. Keep sanding!



Ignore
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2015, 03:50:32 PM »

Most TLG plans/kits/articles emphasize gluing stab with dihedral break @ LE ~.o63" left of center, whilst TE of stab break is on CL.
Stab can be placed on top or bottom of body/boom, but skew remains necessary either way.
I suggest watching youtube videos plus plans posted on various websites to see what I mean. Bruce Kimball & others have drawn plans &
if you you go to discUSkid.com website, his Hoosier Kitty, my Sweepette 30 & 36, etc TLGs have been downloadable from there.
What must be realized is the .063" dim is skew for large TLGs, so if your javelin kits are in the +/- 20" range, less skew will be required.
As I have mentioned many times, HLG/TLG flying trim setup is a very personal matter, which must be sorted out by each person over time.   
Good luck!
Logged

Leeper
shuyge
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 1
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 31

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2015, 04:12:09 PM »

Lee,

I've taken a look at your Sweepette 30 plan and what you said and this is my question:

"
I'm assuming by slight right skew on the stab, that you mean the centerline of the stab LE slightly to the left of the centerline of the boom.
Or conversely, the centerline of the stab TE slightly to the right of the centerline of the boom.

Is this correct?

So you're imparting right turn with the following:
1) slight right rudder
2) slight stab tilt on the right
3) slight stab skew to the right
"

Or am I getting soft in the head? Cheesy

Logged
sweepettelee
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 20
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,311


Simplicate & add more lightness. Keep sanding!



Ignore
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2015, 04:40:16 PM »

Yes, on all counts, considering that dihedral break bisects the stab symmetrically.
In addition, the wing washin tab imparts some right hand drag at glide speed, but lifts when speed increases to counter spinning tendencies.
This is all a somewhat delicate balance of codependant forces.

Q: have you read any of TLG topic further on down HPs list?  There may be much that has been writ on this subject which would assist you,
as it is writ with the latest technical info re Tip Launched Glider 'How-To'.
Logged

Leeper
Ployd
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 19
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 303




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2015, 06:53:02 PM »

To skew or not to skew the stab that is the question? I have never used it from day 1 (2006) and after watching a number of the Japanese videos on uTube and posted on HPA (and again below) it would appear that they do not use it either so why bother complicating things on sub 30" span models.

Basically you are going through a learning process in a cost effective manner by using old HLG kits and outright performance is not the name of the game. Note what has been written so far, research all the topics in the DLG index (there's a lot to get through) and I respect Sweepettelee's opinion even if we agree to disagree with some aspects.

The conversions are quick and easy and you have grasped the basics of what is need to be done to get into the air...so go for it.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=85114404&x-yt-ts=1422579428&v=yPg5fPnjLDc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8t4-wiHVnU

Ployd in OZ
Logged

"So I collect engines, what's your problem?"
shuyge
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 1
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 31

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2015, 07:04:41 PM »

Thanks for the links Ployd.

BTW, the second link says "not available in your country" Sad
Logged
shuyge
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 1
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 31

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2015, 07:10:16 PM »

Q: have you read any of TLG topic further on down HPs list?  There may be much that has been writ on this subject which would assist you,
as it is writ with the latest technical info re Tip Launched Glider 'How-To'.

Lee,

I have done some reading in the TLG forum as well but not exhaustive.
In hindsight, I probably should have posted there instead.  Oh well.  You guys managed to find my post anyways  Smiley

Stan
Logged
sweepettelee
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 20
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,311


Simplicate & add more lightness. Keep sanding!



Ignore
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2015, 07:14:12 PM »

I tend to agree stab skew may be unnecessary Ploydy. Unfortunately I will be unable to test that avenue of TLG trim due to my maladies.
Hopefully Stan B, in his never ending quest for glider trim excellence, will research that trim mode in due course of events.
Looking at Tern Free plan on HPA Gallery(the So Africa gents composite TLG beauty), it seem probable they too use no skew,
just tilt of 9 degrees for transition & glide turn, per their plan.  
Hoping they will read & reply to this thread, although it is not on the appropriate subject of TLG.  Roll Eyes Huh
Logged

Leeper
sweepettelee
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 20
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,311


Simplicate & add more lightness. Keep sanding!



Ignore
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2015, 07:30:33 PM »

Ploydy, thanks for the link to 14-2-23 video!
That is a better one than the 2015 event video, IMO. 
Tilt of moderate amounts was quite visibly employed by most TLG flyers.
Logged

Leeper
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!