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Author Topic: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build  (Read 32661 times)
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Mefot
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« Reply #100 on: June 08, 2016, 05:16:26 PM »

Have you considered a motor stick ? You could wind the motor outside the model and all the stresses would be taken up by the stick when inserted in the model. It should stop any deflection in the fuselage too  Smiley
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #101 on: June 08, 2016, 05:26:29 PM »

Interesting idea. I've seen this method used a lot on old scale plans. I'm not sure it's appropriate for this size of model though, but I'll give it some thought. It is similar in principle to Ivan's 'out of model' technique I referred to, but with a removable motor stick (once the motor is installed within model). Thanks for the suggestion.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #102 on: June 08, 2016, 05:30:59 PM »

Rich, if you have a stooge then winding externally is the best approach. Use a plastic winding tube, slotted at the back for the peg, which of course protrudes either side, and the front for another peg/wire after wound.  In the fuselage are thick, hard sheet pieces with slots, hardened with cyano against wear,  angled to lock the peg against the turns. These are faced with 1/64 ply to stop the peg sliding sideways. Just load the winding tube, locate the peg in the slots, sort out the prop, launch and win the Nationals.



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Rich Moore
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« Reply #103 on: June 08, 2016, 05:38:49 PM »

Mmmm. Yes, this is the sort of thing I'm considering. You have made what has been mushing around in my head a lot clearer. Thanks Bill.
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« Reply #104 on: June 08, 2016, 06:42:19 PM »

Bit late to read through tonight .... but Ivan uses the 'half tube' method if that has not been mentioned?
Goodnight!  Smiley
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DHfan
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« Reply #105 on: June 09, 2016, 08:07:51 AM »

Two thoughts
If you are going with the external winding you could use a rolled tube as the stick like a P30 and have a built in blast tube.  Stiff as well, heavier than a stick, but probably lighter than a stick with the reinforcements being proposed.  Russ/ Ivan's half tube sounds along those lines and I am interested in details on it.

For a rear pin arrangement, using a T nut might make hiding at least one end of the aft pin easier.  I don't know if this is like the control system hardware you were thinking of, or if there are sufficiently light T nuts.
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g_kandylakis
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« Reply #106 on: June 09, 2016, 08:46:22 AM »

Hi Rich,

I had some similar thoughts while building my Avro monoplane.

Here is what i did, more or less, in case it helps:

http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=15029.msg115723#msg115723

I was lucky enough to have the fuselage lacing where the rear peg is, so I could pass the stooge wire retainer throug one of the lacing gaps...

http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=15029.msg116617#msg116617

Winding it outside and then inserting it is also possible, but I did not get to the point od actually trying it in action. I just used a winding tube, to be sure...

George

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Rich Moore
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« Reply #107 on: June 09, 2016, 04:06:05 PM »

Thanks guys. So there are options to consider, and it looks like I can at least start out with the intention of avoiding a visible rear peg. I think it will be worth the effort. I reckon there will be a photo of Ivan's half tube on this forum somewhere...
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #108 on: June 09, 2016, 05:34:43 PM »

...but, alas, I can't find it.

Except I can.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #109 on: June 09, 2016, 05:53:46 PM »

Aha, found a good thread of info here:

http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=19828.0

I knew I had seen something along these lines somewhere. Isn't this forum brilliant?! I quite like the idea of a full tube, so I don't get scared watching the knots evolve, but I suppose the half tube would allow the knots to be massaged out evenly along the length of the motor. The twist lock onto an inner motor peg is lookiing like an attractive proposition.

More stuff to make..but first I will get a pair of sideframes onto my building board...
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #110 on: June 10, 2016, 03:31:05 PM »

Right, enough talking, time to build stuff.

I have drawn the side frames on CAD and printed these off. Sticky tape has been stuck across the drawing where the glue joints are, to stop wood sticking to the plan. I cut my own strip using a metal rule and a sharp blade. This ensures the longerons are all closely matched. I have cut each part in pairs, and tend to cut these from the same piece of plank as well. The second side will be built over the first as is tradition. I might use sticky tape here as well, although careful glueing usually means side frames are easily parted with a razor blade. Clingfilm is OK, but tends to get in the way sometimes.

Longerons are 1/8" square, sheet parts are 1/8" sheet. Uprights aft of motor peg are lightish wood cut to 3/32"x1/8". More to lighten the appearance of the structure than for any saving in weight. I was tempted to taper the longerons towards the tail, down to 3/32" square, but decided this would be fairly pointless. It shows I am thinking about weight savings at the extremities though, which is a good thing.

I have put the motor peg quite far forward to reduce CoG issues. There is plenty of room for knots and there'll be about 250mm between prop hoook and motor peg. I am hoping to get up to 30 seconds out of this model (and a minimum of 20 secs, of course). Don't really care for much more than that, partly because I'm lazy, but if it flies for any longer it'll be too far away/ too small to enjoy it.

I have good feelings about this one. It has been rattling around in my head for a long time and I'm still excited about it.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #111 on: June 10, 2016, 03:41:30 PM »

Rich, looking forward to this one. My Veron Nieuport was doing 30 seconds outdoors yesterday so it should be easy,
I recently tried to do some hard sums on the effectiveness of moving motor pegs, using the law of moments, but I gave up, I wonder just how useful it is. I remember Mike Hetherington explaining the nonsense of the (patented!) Moore diaphragm in terms of moments. Moving the peg does make you feel better though!
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #112 on: June 10, 2016, 05:35:38 PM »

Great that you've started, Rich. Looking forward to this! Have you narrowed down the choice of schemes yet?
(I know it's early days to worry about that, but I always spend ages trawling the 'net and looking for good colour schemes etc. when I really should be just getting on and building.)
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #113 on: June 10, 2016, 06:15:47 PM »

Yep. This one. Keeping it simple. I will probably make it quite grubby.
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #114 on: June 10, 2016, 06:38:46 PM »

Good. It's such a great looking looking little plane that it doesn't really need any frills, so I'm glad you're doing a classic scheme like that (and grubby's good too!)
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Hepcat
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« Reply #115 on: June 10, 2016, 07:29:48 PM »

response to #100.

A motor stick will almost always be heavier than a normal fuselage doing the same job because of the large cross section required to resist twisting and bending loads and then you have the extra weight of a scale fuselage of some kind even if it is lightly built.

John
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2016, 07:59:43 AM »

Second side is now done and is being left alone to set.

I was worried that I might be getting carried away going for 1/8th scale, but the Bebe is a small aeroplane. Looking at it on the board, it feels right.

I think I have given myself a problem, given where I will need to bend the side frames (aft of cockpit). The lower slab of wood, which reinforces the lower fuselage for U/C and lower wing attachment, is extended back to the motor peg support. Seemed like a good idea when I drew it, but it will resist bending differently to the top longeron. I can trim this back if moisture and heat doesn't assist enough.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #117 on: June 11, 2016, 08:27:51 AM »

Rich, I thought the lower longeron had a straight taper from firewall to rear fuse, hence no problem.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2016, 11:53:56 AM »

Obviously I knew that when I drew it... Tongue. Overthinking already. I've been looking at a structural photo which suggests it stays parallel for a bit, but I am being misled. I have better photos that agree with you. Trouble with leaving a project for too long. Thanks for the correction Bill.
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« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2016, 02:25:24 PM »

Yes but the problem you raised certainly can be an issue with other subjects and needs to be taken into account. One approach is to run the grain vertically and face with 1/64 ply. Another approach I now use is to make a plan view shaped former block and pre bend my side frames using ammonia I tape the frame to the block and then paint on the ammonia with a brush which works well even on hard wood
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« Reply #120 on: June 11, 2016, 02:40:23 PM »

Look for induced " banana shape" at plane of upper longerons, after assembly. Think sides will react like a "straight edge board" as bent in a row boat hull! Upper Longerons will assume slight sheer swail/rocker.  Sure happened on my peanut Nieuport 11!!

IIRC, real Nieuports are not assembled like models and longerons remain " square' to all refs and axis, nose to tail. Only verticals are slanted.
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #121 on: June 11, 2016, 03:07:12 PM »

Hi Rich,
If you haven't seen/studied the two attached photos, I bring your attention to the asymmetric presentation of the French serial number on the rudder.  This was standard practice   on early Nieuport X, XI, 12 and others; the N at top and the data at bottom only appearing on the port side.  The practice was ended sometime in 1916 during Nieuport 17 production.  The added 3982 number is the RNAS serial.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #122 on: June 11, 2016, 04:11:13 PM »

Hi Mark. Thanks. Any idea why they did this 'N' on one side only? Must be a reason.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #123 on: June 11, 2016, 04:20:23 PM »

Hi PP. I hear what you are saying. Forewarned is forearmed though and I have a cunning plan. Plus I an eternal optimist.
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #124 on: June 11, 2016, 07:05:04 PM »

Hi Mark. Thanks. Any idea why they did this 'N' on one side only? Must be a reason.


The N is for Nieuport, it's not part of the serial number.   Similarly, the SPADs carried an S and Farmans an F.
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