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Author Topic: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build  (Read 33393 times)
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« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2015, 05:16:44 PM »

Nice tin bashing Rich, very nice indeed.

Andrew
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billdennis747
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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2015, 05:30:05 PM »

Cutouts in the rotary cowling are so easy to get wrong and I've done it a few times. I never rely on drawings; I make the hole too small and then take a little bit out at a time, over a period. Then I spend a lot of time just comparing with photos and opening it up. 
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2015, 05:36:11 PM »

I have made the hole as small as my attempt at metal bashing allowed. I think it is just about enough.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2015, 06:02:19 PM »

Quote
How are you going to attach the top wing?

Mmm. As you have obviously noticed, hence your question, the lack of centre section forces a different approach to the usual wire in tube upper wing arrangement. Unless I come up with something really clever, I will probably fix them permanently to a pop off turtledeck. The curving longeron makes this interesting. The thing that bothers me the most about this set up is how to preserve the stitching between the turtledeck and fuselage sides.

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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2015, 07:22:18 PM »

Instead of making the decking removable, could you make the two front cabane struts tubular, and have corresponding vertical  pins in the wing so that it drops down onto them? Maybe then held in place by another pin or clip through the TE at the rear cabane apex.
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« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2015, 04:23:25 AM »

Quote
How are you going to attach the top wing?

Mmm. As you have obviously noticed, hence your question, the lack of centre section forces a different approach to the usual wire in tube upper wing arrangement. Unless I come up with something really clever, I will probably fix them permanently to a pop off turtledeck. The curving longeron makes this interesting. The thing that bothers me the most about this set up is how to preserve the stitching between the turtledeck and fuselage sides.


I have made two models with 'detachable' turtledecks and both were destroyed when the turtledeck detached, or moved, at some altitude. The trouble is, for it to be crashproof, it does have to be able to move.
Unless I am mistaken, the top wing is joined in the middle; certainly on the 17 which I have drawn up (to replace a previous one which 'popped off'). I propose to make the wings just locate with each other with short pegs. The front and rear cabane struts are bent outwards for about an inch in the usual way. The rear V, being at the root, presents no problem. The front verticals, being out from the centre, need to locate on tubes bound to the spars outboard. The only compromise would be a slot in the covering from the strut end to the root so it can be slid in. Then a band between discrete hooks. After assembly, the slot is covered with a length of Tamiya masking tape sprayed with the fabric colour, not tea.
Only a little flexibility is needed - it doesn't have to fly apart. I recall Terry Manley's Strutter which posed similar problems. The wings located on dowels, allowing a very little movement, but the extra struts were screwed to the wing. It flew for years with a lot of big crashes; far heavier than this one will experience.

Now I think about it, the locating pegs are not necessary.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 04:59:59 AM by billdennis747 » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2015, 03:38:17 PM »

Now you mention it, my Dr1 did lose the turtledeck and therefore the top two wings mid-flight on one occasion (https://youtu.be/7AIWL8jBTVM). It hasn't happened since adding more magnets though, and the tripe is quite heavy. I have found it to be quite a useful method and it has definitely saved the model from destruction on many occasions. I will consider this problem carefully though. Plenty of time to ponder.

I've come back to this. Bill, I can see how your approach would work well. The reason for the detachable turtledeck on the dr1 was driven by the wings being one piece, and there is no joint. On the 11, although the joint is in the middle, the wing attachment doesn't have to deviate far from traditional methods. Anyway, still plenty of time to ponder...


« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 04:02:10 PM by Rich Moore » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2015, 06:02:02 PM »

Now you mention it, my Dr1 did lose the turtledeck and therefore the top two wings mid-flight on one occasion (https://youtu.be/7AIWL8jBTVM). It hasn't happened since adding more magnets though, and the tripe is quite heavy. I have found it to be quite a useful method and it has definitely saved the model from destruction on many occasions. I will consider this problem carefully though. Plenty of time to ponder.
Ah yes, the DR1. That's a third one I built like that and it tried to kill me.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2015, 04:57:16 PM »

Still working at the front end...playing around with the Le Rhone.
Experimenting with the cylinders first. I have represented the fins in the past using thread to reasonable effect, but thought I'd try a different approach. Using 2 diameters of balsa discs, creates a chunky version which I think would look quite effective on a smaller model. With this being so big I think I need more fins, more narrowly spaced to capture the real thing, so I have made one with cereal box card. Shouldn't look too bad when grubbied up.
Hub has been spun in a cordless drill. (Balsa mounted to 4mm threaded bar).

1st pic shows both balsa and card cylinders.
2nd pic shows card stock used for card discs. Card seems to be often overlooked. It is a marvellous material, and free! I suppose it is rather heavy, but who cares when it is up front?
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2015, 06:47:30 PM »

Agree- both look better than thread and the card finned cylinder is especially effective. Nice manly choice of cereal box too!



(not sure silver is quite your colour for your finger nails though)
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2015, 08:19:05 PM »

Rich,
Just catching up with this thread.  The drawing in your reply #49 appears to show approximately a Nieuport 16 cowling for the larger Le Rhone engines.  It's cutout was different from that of the 80HP Le Rhone cowlings.  Photo attached shows Lafayette Escadrille pilot William Thaw with a Nieuport 16.
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Mark
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« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2015, 10:45:38 PM »

Is that image reversed or did the prop actually turn anti-clock from the pilot's perspective?
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2015, 04:11:02 AM »

Hi Mark,

Quote
The drawing in your reply #49 appears to show approximately a Nieuport 16 cowling for the larger Le Rhone engines

It is a drawing of the Ni11 by Ian Stairs, enlarged to suit the size of my model. He shows a seperate drawing of the bigger engine, but the cowlings are drawn the same. The only difference is the size of the engine hub. I have since altered the shape of the cut out to match photographs as best as I can, although I haven't actually cut the cowling yet. The only problem seems to be the radius of the curve where the inner cut deviates to the edge, which appears to be drawn too tight.

Rich
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #63 on: May 27, 2015, 05:07:38 PM »

A bit more powerhouse. Spark plugs have been 'turned' from hardwood dowel in a cordless drill. The last four are much better than the first five.
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« Reply #64 on: May 27, 2015, 05:51:23 PM »

Looking very effective Rich  Smiley
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #65 on: April 24, 2016, 03:32:26 PM »

In an attempt to get myself building again, I have been looking at this project. I haven't neglected it completely - I've been preparing drawings and I am not far off starting on the fuselage. I have also been collecting photos for documentation including photos of the Le Rhone.

I have played around with ways of representing the copper intake piping that delivers the fuel mixture to each cylinder. I tried heating and bending plastic tubing, painted with copper paint. This showed promise and looked quite good, but I found it difficult to get an even heat and couldn't make 2 the same. I might try again, but in the meantime I have been playing with actual copper - you can't beat the real thing for authenticity. I bought some 3/16" copper tube, but couldn't bend it without kinking as the walls of the tubing was too thin. My latest attempt is with 3/16" copper brake pipe which takes a tight bend without kinking as it is quite thick walled. I have used a springy pipe bending tool that slides over the pipe and helps prevent kinking. I need to flatten the lower part of the pipe a bit but it looks promising.

The model le rhone shown in the pics is now a concept model. I am going to start again because I want to incorporate a few improvements.

I include a drawing I made of the Le Rhone as an exercise. It is drawn in a modelling resolution, if that makes sense. What I mean is that it has the number of cooling fins I can model and 'crude' springs that are buildable etc.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2016, 04:35:18 PM »

Rich, good to see you have picked this one up again. The copper thing reminds me of something I did many years ago, after reading it in WW1 Aero magazine. I mixed up graphite powder with melted beeswax, let it cool and shaped it - I sculpted the funny trumpet thing on top of the DH34 and one of those convoluted German exhausts (I poured the wax into rubber tube and then slit it open). I poked in a few copper wires, painted the whole lot with more graphite, connected it up to 6 volts and dunked it in a solution of copper sulphate to plate it. Then melted the wax out, smoothed it and painted it. It worked remarkably well, but in this case I would stick to bending the tube! - looks good.
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« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2016, 02:21:27 PM »

Rich,

just catching up on this thread, as I've been off line for quite a while.

You might try making a brass turning knife, with half of your spark plug profile, filed into the edge. This edge will work (w/balsa) square, but cuts better if filed back at a 45deg. This leaves a chisel edge all along the profile.  Firmly mounted on a suitable hndle this knife will produce repeatable spark plugs turned in the drill. OBTW, rotate balsa so that the flat side of chisel edge faces into rotation.

A similar tool could be made using a profiled 1/16" ply edge, covered with sand paper?

STILL AN INERESTING PROJECT!!!
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« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2016, 04:52:39 PM »

Thanks for the suggestion regarding the brass spark plug cutter packardpursuit. I will make one. The problem with Le Rhones is having to make 9 of everything, so it becomes necessary (and worth the effort) to find methods that allow consistant production.

I am nearing a time when I can crack on with this project. I've had a couple of false starts (restarts even) but life has got in the way a bit. Hasn't stopped me plotting though - I have built it a few times in my head and have worked out a few options for some of the constructional details, so when I get going, hopefully it'll go together quickly. Should manage to have it finished in time for the August Nationals. Oh, wait no, that was brought forward to May, so missed that. It'll be finished for 2017 then...

Got my hands on a copy of Joseph Nieto's drawings from the Smithsonian. Came in a reptile skin envelope, which was pretty cool. I know these drawings are not the most accurate, but they are nice to look at and will be a useful reference alongside the 3-views and photographs. It is surprising how the outlines differ between different drawings. Fortunately, there are some decent photos for this one.

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« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2016, 05:26:47 PM »

Should manage to have it finished in time for the August Nationals. Oh, wait no, that was brought forward to May, so missed that. It'll be finished for 2017 then...

Rich, if you want a nearer deadline to aim for, there's the Oxford 'Scalefest' meeting on Port Meadow, 2nd Oct.
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« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2016, 05:51:01 PM »

Hi Rich,

Love your work!  I have had to come to grips with rotary engines for my 1/12 Scout and Peanut Sommer monoplane.

I had the benefit of complete Williams Bros leRhone cylinders for the Scout however the crankcase was all me and if you haven't seen the thread, the way I did it could be of interest.  Also the valve gear issues - I made this out of styrene rod and sheet on the Sommer and there are some good pics on that thread

I have been turning my thoughts to how to best reproduce those le Rhone inlet pipes in other scales and for when you can no longer find the WB products and one possibility is Hearty Clay which Rich Weber in the US alerted me to.  This is a kind of modelling clay you get in art shops that dries so light you won't credit it.  I used it to produce the cockpit coaming on the Scout  - if you check out come of the early pictures on that thread you'll see what you can do with it. 

Anyway, I intend to produce a master of the intake pipe from which I will make a mould and the idea is to just squeeze a blob of Hearty Clay into the mould 9 times!  Haven't done it yet but I'm confident it will work.

Cheers, Mike
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« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2016, 06:27:39 PM »

Hi Rich,

Good to see you getting back to this! I know what you mean about 3 views. A lot of the stuff I've amassed for the proposed Bulldog can't even agree on wingspan...

Cheers,

Dan.
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« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2016, 11:02:44 PM »

I worked in aircraft restoration and reproduction for a number of years (have just been pulled back in the capacity of projects draftsman). Full size  enthusiasst face exact same  problems modelers face. Namely lack of reliable information! We did a Nieuport 83e for the Japanese and eventually settled on Macchi drawings for a Nieuport 12 and modified as per appropriate  83e photos.  The current feeling is that all Nieuport 2- seaters share the same basic fuselage frame, as do the single seaters.  The  II and 17 also share same tail feathers and landing gear. I suspect Ian stair's drawing reflects those features.

Here is our 83e http://www.wwi-models.org/Photos/Fre/Nie81/
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« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2016, 05:15:48 AM »

Hi Pete - that might be a good event to aim for. Thanks for the heads up.

Mike - that thread is a mine of useful ideas, especially the nose-block detail. I am struggling to talk myself out of another rotating engine though (I know it's a bad idea from a practical point of view, but it looks sooo good in photos!).

Dan - enjoy your birthday
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 05:34:00 AM by Rich Moore » Logged

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« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2016, 05:35:38 AM »

Great photos PP
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