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Author Topic: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build  (Read 32732 times)
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FFScott
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« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2016, 08:33:02 AM »

Rich - could you tell us about your annealing process?  Do you remove the cowl piece from the MDF before heating?  And how hot do you need to get the aluminum (do you look for color changes?)  Is it then allowed to cool down slowly?  Do you try to do the whole cowl at once, or just individual areas?  How do you keep it from warping?

Thanks,
Scott
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2016, 12:07:14 PM »

Hi Scott.
Every now and again, I took the aluminium off the form, held it in pliers and heated it over a blow torch turned down quite low (ie not too furious). Then allowed it to cool. Someone told me to cover in soap, then heat it until soap went black, then cool it. The idea of blackening the soap is that it indicates you have reached the right temperature. I think you are supposed to allow the aluminium to cool slowly, so dunking it in water isn't ideal as this would make the metal go brittle, which you don't want. Patience is the key - lots of little taps is better than a few big ones, and work your way around the work slowly and evenly. With a deep draw like this cowling, as soon as you get a fold starting, if you don't nip it in the bud, you're doomed!
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FFScott
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« Reply #77 on: June 03, 2016, 07:29:27 PM »

Thanks for the explanation Rich.  Very interesting build!
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packardpursuit
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« Reply #78 on: June 04, 2016, 06:37:59 AM »

It's been my understanding that soaping was to make clean up easier and "sooting" the aluminum, over a  candle flame was a temp control. IIRC, the soot was to be torched off, providing a positive indicator that the metal had been heated uniformly and adequately to insure annealing overall.  Is my understanding flawed?
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #79 on: June 04, 2016, 08:34:05 AM »

Flawed thinking? Probably not, but blackening the soap on its own was what someone with a degree in 'jewellery making' advised me to do, and it seemed to work well enough. I would have thought soot would make the process a lot messier.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #80 on: June 04, 2016, 11:23:29 AM »

I have always understood the soap to be simply a temperature indicator
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« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2016, 01:20:44 PM »

My metalwork teacher at school told us to use soap as an indicator of temperature when we were annealing aluminium.

This made me think of him, he was an ex Rolls Royce fitter, a real top bloke. Along with my Physics teacher the best teacher I ever had.  By the time I left that school I could use a lathe and a milling machine, could weld, braze and knew how to make a casting...I don't think they let kids near stuff like that now!

Andrew
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2016, 03:04:54 PM »

It's amazing how much we left to our own devices in those days. A favourite trick among the troublesome element in my metalwork class was to leave a steel ruler in the forge until it was extremely hot, but not actually quite glowing, and then leave it casually on a table sticking out over the edge waiting for some innocent classmate (or the teacher himself) to pick it up.

I sort of get why kids aren't allowed near that stuff so much now, though it is a great shame. I also remember us all standing round suspension bridges made of spruce as we tested them to destruction. The best ones took phenomenal amounts of weight before breaking with a noise like a rifle crack as rhe spruce splintered in all directions and the iron weights came crashing down leaving dents in rhe concrete floor inches from our toes. Terrific fun!
My son told me they were doing the same lesson at his school the other week. I got quite excited for a moment, but sadly they now use art straws instead of spruce and so the whole weight thing has been tamed right down. They probably wear goggles to test them as well. Grin

Sorry, Rich- went off at a bit of a tangent there.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2016, 04:13:57 PM »

We used to soak our hands in ether and set fire to them.
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« Reply #84 on: June 04, 2016, 04:39:27 PM »

We played quite a lot with Mercury... It explains a lot when I think about it now....

Sorry Rich!

Andrew
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #85 on: June 04, 2016, 04:43:37 PM »

Chemistry - take the bunsen burner rubber hoses off at the taps, then light the gas - at the tap. Marvellous jape.

We still do bridges at school - mdf sticks 6x6mm hot glued together. I have built a bridge 'tester' so they can wind on the tension using a large wing-nut on a threaded rod. They love testing to distruction, especially when in a team - saves arguments about who gets to take the thing home. The most dangerous thing we do is probably pewter casting. I also let kids loose with blow torches in plumbing practice. They are surprisingly careful when the danger is obvious.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #86 on: June 04, 2016, 04:47:15 PM »

Ah, and I remember having a radioactive isotope of some sort in class. As it was passed around the class, teacher said "and don't put it near your eye". A boy (who incidentally had what I'd consider a girls name, if I remember rightly) had the isotope at the time and put it right up to his eye and said "why, will I go blind?".

Dopey pillock. How we laughed...
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billdennis747
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« Reply #87 on: June 04, 2016, 04:53:24 PM »

...and spark the electric terminals next to the gas taps. When the taps trick was done properly, many would flare at once as the teacher turned to the board to draw a thermionic valve or somesuch, then go out again as he turned back.
Yes, we had mercury and isotopes too.
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #88 on: June 04, 2016, 04:56:17 PM »

Oh dear, is this going to turn into a 'those were the days' contest until someone claims they used to saw off their own head in woodwork, boil it down to the bone in a vat of acid (in chemistry), stitch it to a frog's body in biology, and then hide it in the softest teacher's car attached to a homemade baking soda and plutonium time bomb (rustled up in a cookery lesson) all in the course of an average day?

Quick, Rich- tell us more about your Nieuport before this whole thread goes to ruin!  Grin
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #89 on: June 04, 2016, 05:06:18 PM »

Seriously though, I'm still quite amazed by the presence of gas taps:
"This will be your teaching lab, Mr Perkins. Your pupils will mostly be bored, disaffected teenagers so we've installed a personal flame thrower at each and every desk."
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #90 on: June 04, 2016, 05:14:20 PM »

Ah, but if kids don't get to play with fire exercise their curiosity, are they really learning?

Just putting the finishing tweeks to my latest fuselage drawing now. Then I'm all set to print it and start building. Finally...
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Hepcat
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« Reply #91 on: June 04, 2016, 07:16:34 PM »

reponse to #88.

Mr Fardell,
If you persist in spoiling our fun with your didactic attitude to our tiny diversions I might have to press your ignore button.
One of the Johns
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #92 on: June 04, 2016, 07:39:37 PM »

Talking of the ignore button, is it a bit like the nuclear button? If we've all got one, then no one will use it and it will keep the forum peace for years and years.

 And will it all escalate like the arms race too? Even now, someone is probably developing a deadly 'ignore the ignore button' button.
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OZPAF
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« Reply #93 on: June 04, 2016, 07:45:47 PM »

 Smiley
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« Reply #94 on: June 04, 2016, 08:39:54 PM »

Don't like the idea of the ignore button .... Reminds me of that "Did I just hear someone speak?" silliness in the playground.

Good to see you working on the Bebe again Rich  Smiley

(magnesium in oxygen and the potassium 'bouncing bomb' were my favourites .... though turning the bunsen burner flame orange with scraps of asbestos mat was probably not the best of ideas!)

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danmellor
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« Reply #95 on: June 05, 2016, 03:59:52 AM »

We got a student physics teacher just before 'O' Levels. He'd been an industrial chemist for British Steel for years, then suddenly decided to be a teacher. He was the most accident-prone bloke ever. In the course of one lesson with specific heat capacity experiments galore, he smashed an overhead light, set his tie on fire, dropped his glasses in a boiling water bath and then fished them out and put them straight back on, badly burning his nose. I often wonder what happened to him. He was ace...!

Dan.
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OZPAF
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« Reply #96 on: June 05, 2016, 08:21:52 PM »

 Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #97 on: June 08, 2016, 04:08:45 PM »

Has anyone got any bright ideas about making the rear motor peg less conspicuous on a rubber model? I am considering an internal motor peg, but this removes the ability to attach model to a winding jig simply, with a pin through the peg. I could wind the motor externally and insert it, wound, on a fixture. I think Ivan Taylor did this on his SE5 a few years ago. Another idea is to make use of the upper control linkage entry port for the winding jig retainer pin, although this is further back than I'd like. Simplest idea is just to put within the outer ring of the fuselage roundel.

Any thoughts welcome...
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #98 on: June 08, 2016, 04:30:19 PM »

I suppose the pin tube for attachment to the winding jig doesn't necessarily have to be the same thing as the motor peg. So if you can make an internal motor peg (maybe accessible through the cockpit?) you could still use the control cable entry point to disguise the hole for a jig retainer pin.

EDIT: Reading what you said again, I think that might be what you meant anyway.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #99 on: June 08, 2016, 05:05:01 PM »

Yes, that is one idea, although I was still thinking of having the motor peg there (fitted flush with internal doublers or some such) because I like the security of the tension during winding going to the jig and not the glue joints. It is a bit far back to do this though. Also, I'd need to ensure the peg doesn't move laterally. At all. Normally there is a bit of tolerance depending on how much the rear peg sticks out.

I'm just pondering. Seems a shame to build something nice, and then stick a scaffold pole through the thing. I will probably settle for the usual, but in the outer ring of the roundel, although winding the rubber outside the model has its advantages...
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