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Author Topic: Dan's timers in power models  (Read 1677 times)
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RobinB
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« on: May 27, 2015, 12:24:29 PM »

I have a couple of Dan's timers now.

Thanks are due to John Thompson for advice on batteries and swiches.
I've gone with the Hitec HS45B servos as used by Roy Vaughan and Alan Jack.

Dan has patiently explained the servo positions relative to the time setups,
and, after a learning curve with connectors and crimping, everything is working ok.

I have to get on with other build stuff before I can get them mounted on faceplates,
but I'd be interested to know how to attach an aluminium disc to a nylon servo arm.
(I'm assuming others have had to use one of the supplied arms as a base, because of the spline)

RobinB
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pbrown
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« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2015, 01:28:48 PM »

Hi Robin,
Just use small screws (I use 1.4mm) tapped into the disc.
Of course you will be fitting RDT...........
Pete
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DaddyO
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« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2015, 01:50:36 PM »

Oooo look at you high tec kids  Wink
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PeeTee
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« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2015, 01:59:33 PM »

Robin

How many functions are you going to use? If it's VIT/AR etc speak with Roy Vaughn or Chris Redrup as I believe they have machined up a disc that houses the normal servo splined centre with arms removed (retained with epoxy, Loctite etc).

If it's for SLOP you could use the same system as my chum Tom in Denmark for his autorudder/DT F1Q - here's a photo

Peter
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RobinB
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« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2015, 02:13:35 PM »



Pete, thanks for that.
I have a pair of Massimo's stand-alone RDT units, which I'll use with mechanical timers.
After that, though, I'll use RDT with the electronic timers.

There's some bloke selling RDT units in the UK - forgotten his name for the moment  Grin

Pee Tee - that's a neat method, but I need arms going in opposite directions for engine and tail end.
Also, the disc method means I can seal around the servo boss to keep the gunge out.


Robin

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PeeTee
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« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2015, 02:32:00 PM »

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but I need arms going in opposite directions for engine and tail end.

Pas de probleme Robin. With the Dantimer you can programme it so that the 1st movement is in one direction and the second in t'other, thus allowing you to have lines going in opposite directions. As for gunge, have the exhaust exiting on the other side Wink

Better still, throw away these noisy smelly things and get with the electric  Shocked

Peter
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glidermaster
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« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2015, 06:16:21 PM »

If we all throw away those noisy smelly things Pete, you'd have nothing to aspire to.

Everyone wants to be a Power Flier really............(note the capitals).
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royv
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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2015, 06:18:16 PM »

Robin
In this setup the servo arm simply has a piece of aluminium sheet with a bent end bolted to it.   OK for small models.  If it's suction feed you might consider a setup like this with a strangler line pulled backwards, the servo arm moves in one direction.    The thing I like about power models is their noise and excitement compared to some other classes. Grin
Roy
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PeeTee
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2015, 03:36:58 AM »

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excitement

Roy, you mean of course 'will it start or won't it' as per your comments on Monday  Grin

Peter
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john thompson
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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2015, 04:24:20 AM »

Robin  .I use 0.5 mm ali sheet cut to half moon shape with scissors which is glued under the servo  arms with Deluxe Materials Super Crylic , this will glue anything almost .
Instead of moving the servo arm in two directions , one can use a capstan and loop the cutoff line around it back to the engine. I find this simpler to set up for 3/4 functions to be worked by the timer . I also use long arms to minimise any load under the servo arm . Be wary of any system that relies on a direct push or pull by the servo arm ( as used in an RC model ) if the system is put under any load at rest , the servo may buzz indicating it is using current and there is a possibility of flattening the ( normally very small ) battery .
Like many others who illustrate their high tec electronic  approach , I also use rubber bands for the most important functions !!
I am off to Salisbury today, to obtain, after tuition,  a Red Card from the Military  for use on Salisbury Plain, which document, no doubt will allow me to boss around those particularly with low " aspirations " and hopefully point out the error of their ways ?
John
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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2015, 08:59:10 AM »

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If we all throw away those noisy smelly things Pete, you'd have nothing to aspire to.

Everyone wants to be a Power Flier really............(note the capitals).

John (B)

Au contraire, the great and good of power flying over here - the Noisy Boys - all want to fly electric   Shocked. Pete Watson has taken to it like a duck to water with an E36 and now Open Electric, and Alan Jack was quizzing us about megapower brushless motors .

The down side is that I'll rapidly  slide down the results list - unless I come up with a better electric mousetrap Wink

Cheers

Peter
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glidermaster
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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2015, 01:47:06 PM »

Not surprising I guess, Pete, with F1C dying on the vine (or being poisoned, depending on one's point of view).

Even I am dabbling in the dark art of electric f/f..........

........but back to Robin's topic, I have one of Dan's timers, what start button arrangement are you using Robin?
John
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RobinB
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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2015, 02:42:39 PM »


John, the start buttons come already connected.
You can see them in the pic - they have a red cap.

The start button and the LED are on rather long cables.
I may have to shorten them if space in the fuselage becomes a problem.


Robin
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RobinB
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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2015, 08:11:42 AM »

John, I may have misunderstood your question.
If by 'arrangement' you actully meant 'where am I going to put it?', well, I haven't decided yet.

It'll probably be somewhere on the faceplate as far away from the arms and the switch as possible,
in order to avoid 'finger trouble'.
I did think about mounting it further away, separate from the timer,
but that would be a hassle if and when I wanted to put the unit in another plane.

Being a world-class procrastinator, I'll be faffing about deciding where to put the battery
and whether to have the controller socket external (or not). Smiley
Robin
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glidermaster
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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2015, 02:52:43 PM »

I am interested in placement, Robin, but also in what the operation sequence is and what type of switch.

As a long term Seelig user, and long time power flier, I am of the opinion that holding the model near to the CG at release is best. The Seelig wire guard over the start button is very good, it makes accidentally starting the timer very difficult. I want a button system that's not very different, I guess. I bought my timer from Dan without a button.

Looks like you're using Lipo batteries - I need to check, I was sure Dan advised small NiCad(s).

I expect it'll turn out very simple, but I am a bit overwhelmed by it currently.
John
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RobinB
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« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2015, 03:24:46 PM »

NiCads? Are you sure? They are SO last-decade!

Maybe Roy or PeeTee can help you with the switch choices.

I don't know what spec. your timer is.
I just asked Dan for 'ones like John Thompson's got'.

The latest Free Flight Forum Report has an informative paper by Roy,
and Alan Jack did a report on building his own timers about 2 years back.
Both worth a read.

Robin
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cvasecuk
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« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2015, 03:30:56 PM »

In my 1/2A model I use a single Lipo 120mAh.
Regards
Ron
 
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PeeTee
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« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2015, 03:48:27 PM »

John

Lipos certainly, I feel sure that Dan wouldn't recommend Nicads as they are no longer produced.

Lord T can tell you what battery he is using, I'm pretty sure it's a 1S lipo of 100+mAH capacity. He is also the man to talk to about start switches. From memory he found that with the standard push button switch, a honking big motor plus vibration caused thumb/finger bounce on the switch button and hence problems. As far as I can recall, he went over to a microswitch with a long operating lever to avoid the problems. I shall now let him recount how he discovered and overcame these things. He's likely having dins now so you won't hear from him until the morning Wink

As for noisy models, I do have a Top Banana completed except for the timer/fuel cut-off installation which is giving me brainfade. I have also acquired in recent times Norvel 049/061, TT GP07 and TD09 motors to go with the part built Dixies and Yfront models. I get overwhelmed by clockwork and thus progress is slow!

Peter
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« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2015, 05:01:37 PM »

I just checked, and you're right about NiCads.
A 4 cell NiMH at 300mah pack was Dan's thought, and he recognized those as old hat.
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pbrown
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« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2015, 05:09:11 PM »

Forgive me for throwing in by bit,but I thought hall effect switches were the only way to go will all that vibration caused by those internal combustion\oily engines.
No moving parts and all that to fail.
Oh and certainly LiPos
Forgive me butting in on types models I don't even fly.
Pete
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« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2015, 05:16:55 PM »

Pete

I'm sure you are right, however would you care to explain Hall effect switches to John T the next time you see him  Wink.

Incidentally, I have a coupe named Hall Effect as it uses cast off wings from a Peter Hall model - as I keep telling him, his worst are better than my best  Roll Eyes

Peter
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pbrown
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« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2015, 05:28:38 PM »

PT, your just trying to drag me in.
John, go to Wikipedia.
Pete
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john thompson
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« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2015, 04:53:27 AM »

Hall effect switches I am sure are the real best answer , but are more complicated to fit in just regular power models . I have looked for the simpler solutions . The push button switches appear to come in about two sizes that are suitable for our needs . The bounce problem Peter mentioned did happen to me and from memory Roy also had a problem . This was not as far as I was concerned the main snag, but as where to fit it . On the Seeligs when one's thumb presses down on the button , the base of your thumb is clear of the tops of the triggers , if it is not and the triggers are behind the button(or possibly by the side ), on launch the top of triggers scrape the bottom of your thumb . This I can assure you with a quick accelerating model happens . I have never been a fan of the button on Seeligs I always used to convert them to a flat trigger arrangement . The reason I found that having just one's thumb on the button and your fingers wrapped around the fuselage allowed the model to move when held (ie the model could pivot on the thumb, others with stronger grip maybe did not suffer this effect ) , a much better grip is made if one's thumb is flat on the side of the fuselage . Using a taller button seemed to me to invite vibration problems and acerbated the holding of the model problem.  Hence my move to use levered micro switches ( see Maplins GW67X for the type that I use ) which permit one's thumb to lie flat . The switch placement need to be thought through to avoid the  the  triggers . I know a lot of these challenges can be eliminated if one makes up the timer , battery etc into a "brick " the same size and layout as the Seelig or near to . I leave that kind of setup to those who are more meticulous than me, and enjoy mucking around with soldering etc .
My face plates are made of 2mm ply and contain the servo, the LED, triggers , on /off switch and the microswitch start button. This plate is mounted on RC rubber (not plastic ) grommets  in an attempt to protect them from vibration . I have  no knowledge as to whether this makes it  better or worse . However I do know, on my clockwork timer set ups since using this isolating method I have had little or no timer problems over the last 5 years or so .The timer and the battery are wrapped in foam and stuffed into the fuselage or pylon. The items are glued to the face plate using an hot glue gun . Also do not use cheap on/off switches both Roy and I  had problems , go for really good ones .
I know that my set up looks a bit cobbled together on the outside of the fuselage, but as I say with my finishing techniques ,but who looking at the model at  a 1000feet can tell .
I think that before one starts to use these new types of timers, it is best to give the whole subject a lot of thought, make some mock up's  and practice holding it in the launch position to see if there are any problems . I know this might look foolish to the neighbours, but it is my model that counts, not my vanity !
I agree with John B the model should be held at the Cg or in front  to ensure safety at launch . However the Seelig start button was failed to be pushed in when Bob Owston launched his Senior Tabu at Chobham the other day and we watched the model go into Chobham Place woods , no tracker , and with 100/120 feet high 400/500 year old trees ,despite pretending to look for the model walking in the woods, on  three separate  visits  , no luck .
I think that there will be many types of solution to the new timers, which as always will evolve into an accepted "regular " way and then every one will wonder what the fuss was all about . By the way Robin come to MW next meeting in June and we can view and discuss , you could even come and help me on the gate , how's that for encouragement ! . john
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pbrown
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« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2015, 01:42:34 PM »

Hi John,
Sorry to be pedantic but the comment about buying really good switch's and Maplin is contradictory.
ALL Maplins stuff is S--T.

If you work on the rule 'I got it from Maplin so it will fail soon' then you won't go far wrong.
The rest was OK.
Pete
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RobinB
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« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2015, 01:55:33 PM »

Suggest any alternatives, Pete?

Robin
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