Logo
Builders' Plan Gallery  |  Hip Pocket Web Site  |  Contact Forum Admin  |  Contact Global Moderator
July 08, 2020, 02:46:14 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with email, password and session length
 
Home Help Search Login Register
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Another KK Globe Swift  (Read 1443 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
RalphS
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 25
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 898

Topic starter


Ignore
« on: June 19, 2015, 01:53:35 PM »

Not really sure whether to put this in outdoor scale or indoor scale category.  I built one many years ago and it didn't fly so I gave it to some kids and went back to my r/c models. I started this second attempt as a something to do with no real aim for a quick build so didn't post it as a build in case I did not finish it.  The plan was downloaded from this site and I made cereal box templates for the half formers, wing and stab tips so that at least both sides would be similar.   hadn't seen Andrew Darby's VMC Swift until I was well through the model build and hadn't seen SFA and cannot access it now so don't know the ins and outs of the re-issue kit.

The model is a nominal 20" span with 1.375" dihedral under each tip.  Despite exercising great care it has curled up a bit more due to the bottom mounted spar (ask Bill).  The construction is a bit unusual to me as the wing has to be covered before gluing it to the fuselage and then adding the 2 fuselage underside longerons.  Still, we managed it.  I added an extra support for the bottom longerons at the wing spar position to stop them dipping when covered. I moved the motor peg forward one bay to ease cg weighting and make it easier to load the motor.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Another KK Globe Swift
Another KK Globe Swift
Another KK Globe Swift
Another KK Globe Swift
Logged
RalphS
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 25
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 898

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2015, 01:56:41 PM »

When I came to cover the underside of the fuselage I found that the tissue has to be stuck to wing tissue as there is no balsa structure in this area.  It seems to work although I have never come across this before. The covering is Esaki over clear mylar.

As I will try to fly this outdoors I fitted a garami clutch to the 150mm plastic prop so that it freewheels ok.

For the wheel retainers I like to use a small bit of electric cable pvc insulation.  It needs to be slightly undersized compared with the wire diameter.  Soak it in cellulose thinners for 10 minutes and it swells sufficiently to be an easy push fit and then quickly dries out, shrinking back to the original size and goes hard. A touch of CA adhesive locks it into place.  (Use the same technique to sheath the prop hook, etc.)

The cockpit is made up from flat transparent sheet.  The patterns given on the plan are miles out and I made paper templates. I used to have a big dislike of gluing transparent sheet to the models but found that the material used for printing diagrams for the old projectors used for PowerPoint type presentations is ideal.  It has micro dots of something on one side to accept the printer ink that turns out be an ideal primer for adhesive.  I used very thin contact adhesive on both surfaces, smoothed on with finger pressure and then activated with a not too hot iron.  I can see that you could print cockpit structures/framing onto this material for some scale models.  The material can also be wiped clean with cellulose thinners and/or toluene with no softening or marking.  I don't know if other people use this material but is highly recommended.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Another KK Globe Swift
Re: Another KK Globe Swift
Re: Another KK Globe Swift
Re: Another KK Globe Swift
Logged
RalphS
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 25
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 898

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2015, 01:59:08 PM »

The fuselage really needs card or balsa cowling and rear decking to smooth out those humps and bumps.  I set the decalage at about 3 degrees relative to the underside of the wing by fitting triangular fillets between the stab and fuselage.  With added noseweight to balance on the main spar the model glided very nicely over some very long grass.  AUW less rubber is 24g. I am planning on left power and glide indoor and outdoor hopefully.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Another KK Globe Swift
Re: Another KK Globe Swift
Re: Another KK Globe Swift
Re: Another KK Globe Swift
Logged
Ex Member
Guest

« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2015, 02:34:07 PM »

Hi Ralph,

My swift was pretty much to the plan and I hit the same issues you did.  I added additional triangular sections to the underside to attach the tissue to and I also planked the nose.

I have all of the KK flying scale series kits, and so I built it from copies of the parts a long time before I met the VMC guys.  When I did Meet them I swapped some my finished models for laser cut kits or let them use photo's of my models as they were short of pictures of finished ones.

Mine flew ok, it really needs a decent amount of washout, and plenty of down thrust IIRC.

Yours looks very very nice indeed...

Andrew
Logged
RalphS
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 25
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 898

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2015, 02:48:34 PM »

My swift was pretty much to the plan and I hit the same issues you did.  I added additional triangular sections to the underside to attach the tissue to and I also planked the nose.

Mine flew ok, it really needs a decent amount of washout, and plenty of down thrust IIRC.  Yours looks very very nice indeed...

Andrew

Hi Andrew, thanks for your response.  Were the longeron cut-outs on the laser cut half formers in the correct locations?  Although I tried hard to be accurate from the print sheet patterns the longerons were wavy until I enlarged the slots and subsequently filled the gaps.  I suppose distortion creeps in with copies of copies.

I have put some wash out on both wings - may have to resort to the kettle!  Down thrust will be easier, apart from filling the gap. 

Did yours fly left?

Ralph
Logged
Ex Member
Guest

« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2015, 02:54:00 PM »

Hi Ralph,

I didn't build it using the laser cut parts I used copies of the print wood from my original kit, the advantage of which is that I didn't have any copy-copy distortion.  All of these kits, be they KK or Veron have loads of "bugs" in the position of the notches etc, so I would have just mucked about until all worked.

Yes I trimmed mine to fly left.

Andrew
Logged
Dave Andreski
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 82
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 3,052




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2015, 03:56:04 PM »

Ralph,
Very nice workmanship!
Dave
Logged

Aspire to inspire before you expire.
RalphS
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 25
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 898

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2015, 03:07:22 PM »

Ralph,
Very nice workmanship!
Dave

Thanks Dave.  Now the difficult bit - getting it to fly.  It has been so windy in the UK this year.  OK for big models but not small ones.   Sad   Ralph
Logged
deniscullinan
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 0
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 82



Ignore
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2016, 11:10:08 PM »

I'm a bit late in adding my comment, but I just had to express my admiration for the terrific craftsmanship of this model. Very satisfying build to follow!

---Denis Cullinan
Logged
Jack Plane
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 42
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,822




Ignore
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2016, 02:42:33 AM »

Ralph

That's really crisp, and what a lovely scheme!

Thanks for your kind advice at the Nats, and well done with your placing with the Arrow!

Cheers

Jon
Logged
RalphS
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 25
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 898

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2016, 10:52:53 AM »

Thanks Dennis and Jon.  Haven't got it flying to my satisfaction yet.  I might get it turning neatly under power and glide now that it is getting warmer outside. 

Jon.  Good to meet you at the weekend Indoor Scale Nats and see your Arrow fly very nicely.  I met some people that I hadn't seen for about 30 years and met quite a few others that I have read about in the mags.  Have to think of something for next year.

Ralph
Logged
Jack Plane
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 42
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,822




Ignore
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2019, 04:00:30 AM »

Hi Ralph - and Andrew

My son won an original KK kit of the Globe Swift at the Indoor Nats raffle yesterday and is keen to build this for next year.  Having done two Magnificent Darby kits he now wants to try old-school building.  He also wants to have a go with electric, which I reckon should work quite well (nice big nose, good for a tray installation or even a top-hatch?) and wondering how you guys got on with your rubber versions in the end.

Aside from increasing the decalage to 3º and being really generous with the washout, can one assume that the model won't be any more difficult to get flying fairly neatly indoors than any other low-winger?  Certainly got good dihedral!

Cheers
Jon
Logged
Rudder flutter
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 126
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 192



Ignore
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2019, 12:57:33 PM »

Hi Jon.
Well done Yesterday with the lovely little Scout - looked super!
I've tried quite a number of electric conversions on various models, including a few low-wingers. The only low-winger that I got to work was a very much lightened Diels TBD-1 Devastator. High wingers and biplanes seem OK, but for some reason low wingers are very unstable when powered by electric motors, much more so than when they fly using rubber power. I'm really not sure why this is. I also built the Globe Swift to the plan a few years back, powered by rubber as originally intended, and I found it quite a challenge to trim. I think it may suffer from lack of dihedral when built directly as the plan states. I think the Globe Swift might be a challenge for Isaac if you 'electrify' it.
Logged

Richard Crossley
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 150
Online Online

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 5,736




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2019, 01:05:40 PM »

Jon, bearing in mind what Richard says, can I suggest that the electrified Globe Swift be YOUR entry for next year's kit scale, rather than Isaac's?  Grin
Logged
Ex Member
Guest

« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2019, 01:32:15 PM »

It did trim out ok, but it wasn’t easy IIRC, In fact the VMC Hurricane and ME109 were easier - nuff said!

That Jodel trims out as easy as a high winger, the huge dihedral on the tips seem to make it really really stable

Andrew

Logged
Jack Plane
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 42
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,822




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2019, 01:55:15 PM »

Cheers for that feedback guys.  Now I know why the GS was in the raffle!  Shocked

Chatted it through briefly with Isaac, who's fine with doing a high-wing mono... as being discussed in more detail now over the 2019 Nats thread.

Re the Jodel, we ain't finished with it yet:  reckon the same total thickness of rubber but made up of two loops of 3/32 rather than one of 3/16 will help tame the power-burst and so reduce the slight phugoidal, but also increase the length from 1.5 to 2.0 times length for an extended viewing experience!
Logged
RalphS
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 25
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 898

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2019, 02:16:00 PM »

Hi Jon, congrats on the Scout's performance at the Nats. 

Re the Globe Swift - It is a bit quick for indoors and I haven't done much with it outdoors.  The model is capable of good performance outdoors in the case of the one flown by Mike Sanderson.  I saw his version flying very well in windy conditions at Old Warden.  It appears to be a challenge to fly well, but they used to say that about the Lysander and as for Scouts not taking off......

Get it built.  It is a tough little model and looks pretty. 
Logged
Jack Plane
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 42
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,822




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2019, 03:27:15 PM »

Cheers Ralph.  How planes look is key, they've got to capture one's heart, and the Globe Swift is indeed very pretty!
Logged
Jack Plane
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 42
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,822




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2019, 10:09:23 AM »

Just a thought Ralph and Andrew...

There's virtually no decalage at all shown on the plan, so surely the model - if made exactly as designed - would not be longitudinally stable, and would also fly faster than one would prefer...?

Jon
Logged
billdennis747
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 62
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,100



Ignore
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2019, 10:39:46 AM »

There's virtually no decalage at all shown on the plan, so surely the model - if made exactly as designed - would not be longitudinally stable, and would also fly faster than one would prefer...?
This has been a perennial question around the many Phil Smith Veron designs. People seem routinely to put some incidence in
Logged
Jack Plane
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 42
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,822




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2019, 11:06:24 AM »

This has been a perennial question around the many Phil Smith Veron designs. People seem routinely to put some incidence in

Cheers Bill.  That is exactly what I'd do if I were to build it, something around 4º in total, mainly positive on the wing but maybe some negative on the tail.

Lateral stability should be okay... loads of dihedral shown on the plan (1-3/8" each wing) balanced by a generous fin.
Logged
RalphS
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 25
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 898

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2019, 11:07:09 AM »

Hi Jon - if you look at the pics and my comments in reply#2 above I gave it 3 degrees negative by jacking up the rear of the tailplane.

I will have to get it out on the flying field again - it is a pretty model.

Ralph
Logged
Jack Plane
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 42
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,822




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2019, 11:18:49 AM »

Hi Ralph, I thought you had from the photos but missed the bit in the text when first re-reading.

Enjoy the flying - lovely to have the promise of better weather now!
Logged
Andy Blackburn
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 19
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 543




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2019, 01:39:43 PM »

I think low wingers - particularly those with a clean airframe - usually need at least 4 degrees longitudinal dihedral in order to make them behave; that's certainly the experience I've had with low-wing peanuts (I know this isn't a peanut, but the principle should still apply). Other people at my local club have had similar experiences. A quick survey of published plans is interesting (they're all peanuts, in this instance);

ModelDesignerWing IncidenceTail IncidenceLongitudinal Dihedral
Curtiss P-40B/CDave Diels+2.5-1.0+3.5
Miles M.20J-Fr Frugoli+2.0-4.0+6.0
Bloch MB-152Dave Diels+3.0-0.0+3.0
Curtiss P-40NPres Bruning+0.0-4.0+4.0
Nakajima Ki-44-IIPres Bruning+2.0-3.0+5.0

If my arithmetic is correct, the average value of longitudinal dihedral over that (admittedly small) population of published plans is 4.3 degrees.
Logged
billdennis747
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 62
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,100



Ignore
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2019, 02:01:06 PM »

I suspect those figures are in line with most of our models of whatever type. I have built mostly biplanes and I set the wings at 3 degrees measured along the bottom of the section which is not the true figure of course with a raised LE, which these KK and Veron types do not have. One type which does puzzle me is the fast jets that Ivan has been building which need huge 'decalage' in the region of 8-10 degrees.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!