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Author Topic: Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)  (Read 4072 times)
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bcarter1234
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« on: August 30, 2015, 02:58:54 PM »

I wanted to start another Peanut, wanted a twin engine model and wanted an He 111 so here we are. It won't end up very scale as I hope to get two 3" props on it so the nacelles will end up too far from the fuselage. The wing will also be a much thinner in section as I prefer airplanes I can coax into flying. At least I'll know what it is supposed to be when it flies over.

Would it fly with 2" props? I haven't started the wing so I'm willing to go scale if anyone has a twin flying on props that size. If I'm not too lazy I could even build a second wing and try it. That wouldn't be too bad as long as I just hang the props and motors leaving the nacelles until I see if it has potential.     

Formers from 3mm depron sanded on one side to 2mm thickness to get rid of one "heavy" skin.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150829_144028_zpsfxoe6tmt.jpg

Formers laid out on 3 view. Formers 2, 3 and 4 positioned to attach to leading edge, spar and trailing edge respectively.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150829_144302_zpsniry2983.jpg

Same jig used for 36" Constellation. I think the larger fuse was easier to build. I used the cut top of the fuselage drawing to line up the formers.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150829_182013_zpsragm2fwe.jpg 

Formers temporarily (I hope *) attached to jig with hairpins and double side sticky tape.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150829_182022_zpsiky1jcpy.jpg

Top bottom and center stringer attached.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150829_213008_zpsq2sbwpb0.jpg

All stringers are 1mm (.040") x 1mm (.040") tapering to 1mm (.040") x .6mm (.025"). The consistent 1mm dimension stands up from the former. I'll sand them to a taper on the rear half of the fuselage to yield a double taper after all are installed. This should keep the tail light and let me compensate for my seeming inevitable flaws in the formers.  I glued them in place with foam safe thick CA then wetted them near the extreme bend at the front to relieve some of the stress.

All 9-1/2" of fuselage.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150830_140937_zpsnd4g9nb0.jpg

From the front.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150830_141000_zpsbavbhjgz.jpg

I used 14 pound per cubic foot balsa for the stringers. Using 8 pound would have let me increase the stringer size to 1.3mm (.051") square tapering to 1.3mm (.051") x .8mm (.031")  at the same overall weight. Any opinions on larger softer verses smaller stiffer for stingers?

*Now to see if it is in fact temporarily attached to the jig.

Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
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TimWescott
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2015, 06:44:13 PM »

Since you've got Depron lying around, why not make a flat-plate model of the model?  Just whack out wings and tail feathers from 2mm Depron per your plan, with balsa sticks for a fuselage and for the nacells.  Glue it all up with foam-safe CA.  Then try it with 2" props and see if it'll stay in the air.

One way or another you'll learn what you need to know (I suspect you'll learn that you need 3" props -- but that's why you do the experiment).
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2015, 07:05:10 PM »

Tim,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll cut some pieces out and see what happens. I already know carving the fuselage out of pink foam could have been done in about 20% of the time it's taken to build this one up.  Wink
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2015, 09:07:24 PM »

It came out of the jig without too much trouble. Here it is back in the jig before I realized I had lined up the bottom of the fuselage with the lines intended for the top. Doh!
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150830_162919_zpsgm2l8mid.jpg so it is a method I would be willing to use again.

Fuselage as shown is 1.2 grams. Drawing shows the scale engine locations and those necessary to allow for something near a 3" diameter prop. Looking closer you can see the lines drawn to show the modified leading resulting from moving the nacelles outboard by 1/2". Since I only build and fly for fun I think I'll be able to live with the planform change. I'm still undecided as well about how to modify the nacelles themselves to allow for a decent length motor. Maybe I should just go electric and solve both problems in one fell swoop. Do we have in house expertise to recommend motors and props?   
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150830_203655_zpsm4ekmmbl.jpg

Too late now but I keep thinking about Emmanuel Fillon's twin wire drive. Anyone have any experience with one? That might be the thing to put on a box fuselage, sheet flying surface depron model.
 
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2015, 09:11:17 PM »

Wing tips and tail surface outlines heat formed ala Paul Bradley with a soldering iron from 1.2mm (1/16") square stock. They will be sanded to final thickness after ribs are added.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150831_210316_zpszlkk0123.jpg

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rgroener
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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2015, 01:51:04 AM »

A He-111 in peanut size Shocked You are brave Grin
Looking forward to see it being built. Will there be enough space in this tiny nacelles?

Roman
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2015, 10:02:38 AM »

Roman,

We'll see. It's likely I'll leave the nacelles open to run the motors to the trailing edge. This project will be much more in the "semi-scale" range at least until I can determine how flyable it is. I was discussing this with Don McLellan, as another issue is that the prop shafts appear to be in line vertically with the wing leading edge. The nacelles will need some "artistic license" to say the least. I'll be using a much thinner flat bottom section so having the bulk of the nacelles and motors under the wing may still look okay.

I am still considering two wings just to see if fat 3 bladed props might be able to fly it with the nacelles at or near scale location. The scale location would allow two 2" diameter props. These provide the same prop disc as one 2.83" prop and likely less efficiency. That's a ratio of less than 22% prop diameter to span.

Here are the numbers for other possible locations.
Move nacelles out 1/4" each.
Two 2.5" diameter props same prop disc as one 3.53" prop. 27% prop diameter to span.
Move nacelles out 1/2" each. (My current proposal. The Pistachio Spitfire pulls well with a 3" diameter 3 blade yogurt pot prop and I have Peanuts that fly on 4" props.)
Two 3" diameter props same prop disc as one 4.24" prop. 32% prop diameter to span.

It's a Peanut so either way it should be fun.   
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2015, 03:53:30 PM »

Here are some progress shots from this weekends work.
I built the center section flat.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150906_134704_zps4kztt1op.jpg

Early work on the outboard sections.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150906_161514_zps10mbteei.jpg

Before sanding and joining. There will be .625" dihedral at each tip. Wing weighs 1.2 grams.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150906_175150_zps8za4yh2g.jpg

View from one tip. After joining the sections I'll add one turbulator strip between the spar and the leading edge.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150906_175159_zpsakbxhghm.jpg

The early mock up. Horizontal and vertical stabilizer together come in at 0.3 grams.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150907_143532_zpsircpj6ut.jpg

I plan to install the wing so the bottom will be up .250" from the bottom of the fuselage. This will give the top of the wing, the tips and the nacelles the correct relationship to the fuselage since I'm using a a wing section that is .250" thinner than scale at the center. I've effectively built only the top half of the wing. Wink At least I'll know for the next plane I build whether the location of the top or bottom of the wing is more critical to appearance. 

Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
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rgroener
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2015, 01:59:01 AM »

bcarter1234, thanks for your explanation. I am looking forward to see how you will solve the problems.
Your weekend work looks very nice. I like the construction.
Keep on the good progress.

Roman
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2015, 02:10:18 PM »

I've made some progress fitting the wing. Here is the chunk that was cut out. You can also see the two small strips added to attach the leading and trailing edge. The middle former will attach to the spar.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150925_182151_zpsse7nz1jv.jpg

Close up from the bottom. I hope to reuse the cut out section fitting new partial formers at the leading and trailing edges. 
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150925_182302_zpsqrftyd4a.jpg

Wing fitted.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150925_182422_zpsvk5ngyhc.jpg
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2015, 04:53:37 PM »

The tail surfaces are now fitted. Current weight as shown is 2.7 grams.

It's time to carve a plug and try pulling the nose section. I still have to commit to a nacelle design too. This probably would have been easier at double the span but I do love to see a Peanut do its thing. Wink
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150927_164338_zps9xtxhrss.jpg 
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150927_164354_zpslqkw22yx.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150927_164403_zpsssp07we6.jpg
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
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OZPAF
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2015, 08:24:05 PM »

Its looking impressive. Lots of wing area! You wouldn't consider using motor sticks inside your nacelles? That would possibly simplify your nacelles - they wouldn't need to be as strong.

It will be interesting to see how it flies.

John
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2015, 10:51:21 PM »

Very, very impressive!!  Truly looking forward to more pics and progress reports.

Don
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2015, 09:20:03 AM »

What a great subject and a great build. I hope this turns out the way you want. I'm looking forward to the finished model and the flight reports. I'm curious, is this intended for FAC competition? I ask because the Depron formers would exclude it from FAC. I thought I'd mention if that was your intention. Just as a heads-up.

Steve
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2015, 11:05:36 AM »

Thanks for the comments. My current inclination it to go with an open nacelle with the hook on the trailing edge. Their would be plenty of strength that way if I can live with the looks.

As with all my planes it's only to be flown for my own pleasure, I don't compete, so the depron is a bonus not a problem. Thanks for the heads up though, it could matter to someone.

I do find it humorous that there are materials restrictions on something as esoteric as free flight scale planes. Using whatever material comes to hand seems to me to be absolutely in the spirit of building your own stuff. We use various hard to source woods, papers, metal alloys, plastics, carbon fiber, purpose made rubber, chemicals of all sorts but restrict the use of the material that throw away food containers and building insulation are made from. If the old timers didn't use it "back in the day" it was because they didn't have access to it. In some applications foam is better, I'm not a purist. If Aerogel or carbon nanotubes would build a better free flight plane, were cheap and readily available, I'd use them. Wink       
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2015, 09:17:37 PM »

I'd never plunge molded anything before, the He 111 nose seemed a perfect opportunity to further my education.
This is the plug for the He 111's asymmetric nose, carved from balsa.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150929_201607_zpsjyyd1cqx.jpg
The view from the back, plunged after heating the plastic with a heat gun.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150929_201530_zpss3ax6yud.jpg
Same setup from the front.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150929_201459_zpsfuhtmrxt.jpg
With the plug removed.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150929_201628_zpsgob9zgjs.jpg
Test fitted, you can see the plug and a spare in the background. Anyone need one? Wink It only takes about one minute now that I have the mold.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150929_203553_zpsnto7mzaw.jpg
It should look okay once its framed.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150929_205350_zpsnocghdod.jpg
A top view showing the asymmetry.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20150929_205423_zpsrqpfpg5k.jpg
Oh! Sorry for the gratuitous hairy leg shot. I didn't notice until I scrolled down and I'm too lazy to crop it.

I was pleasantly surprised at how simple the process was once I got the plastic hot enough. The mold went in with very little effort. My first frame had too much clearance around the plug. This one one has about .060" -.090" all around. .060" would have been enough.
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
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« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2015, 03:35:09 AM »

You made that look painless! What type and thickness plastic did you use?

John
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2015, 08:55:58 AM »

John,

Sorry I don't know what type of plastic it is. It is "found" material from a clear plastic box similar to the one pictured here. I heated it to the point that the air from the heat gun was starting to blow it into a dome and then plunged the mold into it.
http://www.jewellery-world.co.uk/AdminImages/Products/jworld_1/62688_big.jpg
It measured .014" before molding. I thought it would be too thick but the finished piece is of course much thinner. I don't think I'd want it much thinner being on the nose as it will. It weighs .28 grams.
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2015, 11:40:57 AM »

Very, very nice Brent.  The nose looks like it fits perfectly on the fuse.
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« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2015, 07:47:19 PM »

Thanks BC.

John
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2015, 02:57:35 PM »

I'd be embarrassed if I tallied the number of hours spent ciphering and fabricating to get to this point. Never having built a nacelle before perhaps a scratch built Peanut He 111 from a 3 view was not an ideal primer. I don't believe there is a Pistachio He 111 in my future but if there is it will be built from foam. At any rate here is the current state from various angles.

The rings are of .060"/1.5mm depron sanded down from 2mm sheet to get rid of the "heavy" skin. The black streaks are carbon tow attached with foam safe CA.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20151004_075848_zpsh5wkdjki.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20151004_075648_zpssnyaysxc.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20151004_075624_zps47ldb7dg.jpg

I tried to maximize the clearance for the motors. The inside diameter of the rings is 0.60"/15mm.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20151004_075722_zpsvgu2atzb.jpg

The firewalls are made, bored for the nose blocks and will be installed next. Still unsure about where and how the rear motor anchor will be done. A hook on the trailing edge will be easiest and provide the greatest capacity at a whopping 3" hook to peg length but result in a partially exposed motor.

Currently pondering using 3 bladed yogurt pot props with comparatively fat blades and high pitch in hopes of getting a decent length of motor run. Does anyone know if a twin will accept higher than normal pitch since each prop need only provide half the thrust? The analogy in my mind is that one tractor couldn't pull a wagon from a dead stop in high gear. Two tractors on the other hand might be able to. The question comes down to whether or not a high pitch prop at low rpm can produce effective thrust.

Thanks for any thoughts, especially those based on experience or observation.     
 
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Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2015, 09:38:14 AM »

The front half of the nacelles are made from light 1/32" sheet. Likely the back half will be from insulation foam. Each of the sheet pieces came out at about .2 grams. Weight as shown so is 3.9 gr. The wing and nacelles contribute 2.6 grams of the total.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20151004_213856_zpsadlmzgbs.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20151004_215411_zpsmbihe1pb.jpg
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« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2015, 07:08:20 PM »

Neat.
John
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bcarter1234
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« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2015, 09:14:29 AM »

These are the rough blanks for the nose plugs. Front to back they are two layers of 1/16" balsa, one of 1/64" ply and two more of 3/32" balsa. 
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20151006_204532_zpsjm2bzj7s.jpg

One installed in the nacelle and the back side of the other after turning on a dremel.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20151006_211658_zpsdqxns92s.jpg

The nacelles can still be slid on and off at this point. They are three degrees down in relation to the wing to bring them parallel to the fuselage. The nose plugs angle down three degrees beyond that to provide down thrust. The alignment was surprisingly easy. Hopefully I can use some of these lessons on the 36" Constellation. 4.5 grams as shown. Breakdown is 1.6 grams in the two nacelles, 1.6 grams in the wing and 1.3 in the fuselage and stabilizers.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/bcarter1234/20151006_221016_zpslymtzxiz.jpg
Still need to make up the spinner/propeller assemblies and install the prop shaft tubes. Not sure whether to bother with a freewheeler. 
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Heinkel He 111 (or any Peanut twin)
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2015, 12:03:55 PM »

Fantastic!  A very neat way to do the nacelles and very impressive weight for so much structure.
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