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Author Topic: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD  (Read 6180 times)
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Russ Lister
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« on: October 04, 2015, 03:47:47 PM »

I think this is my first 'work actually in progress' build thread for a long time ie. following the build from the start.

I have gone for the Vintage Aviator Sopwith Pup as there is so much there for easy documentation ... OK, so it's not a 'real' one, but it is a real aircraft and a nicely done one too.
I have already been working on the plan for a while ... I'm trying a few 'different' things on this one (different for me at the very least). Most of which I will keep quiet about until I find out if it all works first!

As I often do, whilst thinking about the main aircraft and drawing it up, I make a start on some of the details.
I've drawn up the wheels ... the photo shows the 'kit of parts' I have made.
This includes one of the things that I am going to try. The inner 'flat face' is 1/64" ply with a outer ring of 1/32" ply to the axle side.
The 'spoked' 1/32" ply is just to hole the hub in place to set the wheel square from the outset. Two more 1/32" hub pieces will be added to this.
Another outer ring added to this will complete the wooden parts.
The whole assembly will then be mounted on my OH router, on a dividing table set vertically. The outer side of the wheel will be wire spokes .... the 16 holes for these will be drilled on the OH.
I will then make the spoke covers from a 'papier mache' of Japanese tissue, forming what I hope will be a more realistic wheel cover!
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2015, 04:02:29 PM »

One question that has arisen so far. The scale drawing of the starboard lower wing shows an angled riblet.
I guess that this is how it was ... but was it the same for the port wing?

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Re: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2015, 04:53:12 PM »

Hi Russ, if you look in the builder's plan gallery, tech drawings and 3-views, page 30, you'll find the original Sopwith drawings in .pdf. I tried to convert my stored copy to .jpg for you but it was too big for the converter to handle. The angled riblets appear to be on both bottom planes but neither top plane.  I cringe at making wheels so nod to your sagacity in getting them out of the way first!

Stephen.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2015, 05:11:42 PM »

One question that has arisen so far. The scale drawing of the starboard lower wing shows an angled riblet.
I guess that this is how it was ... but was it the same for the port wing?


My Replikraft 3 view, which is renowned for accuracy, shows it on the port lower too. I guess it was angled to avoid the strut mounting.
Suggest you allow for lots of side and downthrust - and then some.
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2015, 05:23:35 PM »

Thanks both for the info .... I forgot to look in the builder's gallery, Stephen.

Bill,
I got similar advice from Paul Briggs when I built the DPC Sopwith Triplane .... it certainly proved to be the case with that!
Thanks.
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2015, 05:45:36 PM »

Stephen,

I have to admit that I enjoy making wheels ... just as well because I have been developing my spoked wheels to almost the point where I can call then a 'product'.
I've recently made another change that I hope will make them more viable. This is incorporated in these wheels with respect to the tyres .... one of those 'I'll let you know if it works' things, I mentioned earlier!

Here are some earlier ones .... the ones on the right are early ones that I have earmarked for a 'Flambards' Blackburn ... if ever I can find a decent three view drawing!

The wheels for the Pup will be radially spoked (just on the outer side as mentioned)



Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
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Art356A
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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2015, 09:10:27 PM »

I have a detailed drawing of the Camel wheel. If we can assume the Pup used something similar, and you're covering them with tissue, then you have it fairly easy. There were 60 spokes and half were cross-threaded (from the axle to the opposite side of the rim). So you're only dealing with 15 spokes under each canvas cover. On old-fashioned airplanes with no  brakes the only load on the wheels was from the side and bottom, no torque loads between the hub and rim, thus all the spokes were radial. That makes it easier still for you.

I'll try to get a scan posted.

a.
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My arms are so weak, it's like that pushup I did last year was a total waste.
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2015, 03:38:41 AM »

Thanks Art.
I must admit I wasn't sure if I was counting 15 or 16 visible ribs in the photo I was using for reference.
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Art356A
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2015, 08:56:10 AM »

The scanner wasn't in the mood so I had to take a photo of the page.

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Re: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
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My arms are so weak, it's like that pushup I did last year was a total waste.
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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2015, 12:01:19 PM »

Wow.  That's quite a wheel ass'y Art.  The tire labeling made me chuckle:  "700 x something..."    Just like a basic road bike wheel setup, highly "dished".

Russ: that angled riblet is shown on the lower wing panels only, per drawing 1362 in Part 1 of the dwg package in the gallery.  This is the lower right wing panel, with the note that is below that view on the drawing.  (as Bill Dennis mentioned earlier)   This is a construction detail I had never noticed...

The Pup is one of my favorite biplanes; watching your project with lots of interest!
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
Re: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
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Make the same mistake on both sides; nobody will notice...
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2015, 04:09:42 PM »

Art,
The photo serves just as well as a scan ... thanks  Smiley

Indoorflyer,
Thanks .... I will stick with the three view I have worked from for the documentation, but the added info contained in these drawings is great  Smiley
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2015, 04:41:48 PM »

The wooden assembly glued up and mounted on the overhead ... the drill bit is about 0.6mm and is the smallest that my collets will grip.

I have now discovered that my usual cross spoking is easier to do in this situation than true radial spokes. Having said that, I have just had an idea that I must try tomorrow!
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Re: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2015, 07:29:57 PM »

I never knew that those blueprints were there! .... I've been going through them .... wow!
Should be all my questions answered ... but I'm hoping to avoid going into a spin checking what I have already done against the blueprints!


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« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2015, 03:54:16 PM »

To get 'true' radial spoking, I resorted to cutting out a drilled hub .... something I had hoped to avoid.
Even though I made it as small as I thought was practicable, the diameter of the hub pushes the spoke attachment point out a little. This, combined with the extra thickness of the disk has left the angle of spoking a bit high Undecided
I think I will finish both the wheels the same and make another pair for the Pup if I'm not happy with them.
The spokes go a bit dodgy at points ... they pulled through part of the hub that I damaged. When they are all glued up I will tease the spokes more straight.
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Re: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
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« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2015, 07:31:40 PM »

In the light of experience gained from my first attempt and the drawing provided by Art, I think I will go for another pair of wheels.
I now know where to set my smallest hub within the 'cone' to keep a more scale profile.

Here's a snapshot of the wheel redrawn using the drawing posted by Art .... I hope that this is of use to others too.

All dimensions are in millimetres.
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Re: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
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« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2015, 10:01:17 PM »

Very neat work Russ and great to see some enthusiasm from you. I admired your Pietenpol many years back.

Apologies again if my autocorrect gets in the way. I'm currently awaiting my flight to Athens at Heathrow T5.

George - I look forward to judging with you over the weekend ;-)

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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2015, 02:51:24 AM »

Thanks Graham ... I hope to keep things rolling with this one!

Have a good weekend.
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2015, 05:00:57 AM »

Hi Russ,

nice little project you have started here! I ill be watching with interest as well.

Spoked wheels have a nasty habit of becoming an obsession  Grin. to get them better and better, as realistic as possible...


Off-topic:

Graham,

I hope it will be a good weekend. Not sure if it going to be a sunny one, though. Weather forecast predicts plenty of rain. I imagine you have been contacted already...

back to topic...
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2015, 09:11:10 AM »

Attached detail from Sheet 10 of Sopwith Pup drawings by Mick Davis in Cross and Cockade Journal (Great Britain) Vol.19, No.1 (1988) shows the Pup wheel to be the same as the Camel's.
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Re: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2015, 03:13:13 PM »

Thanks Mark .... and the full Palmer Cord marking too. I'm tempted to have a go at hand painting this.
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2015, 04:21:37 PM »

I had cropped this out of the original post, as I didn't think it was pertinent. However, as long as you seem intent on self-flagellation, knock yourself out.

a.
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Re: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
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My arms are so weak, it's like that pushup I did last year was a total waste.
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2015, 05:13:16 PM »

Thanks Mark .... and the full Palmer Cord marking too. I'm tempted to have a go at hand painting this.
No excuse not to now then, Russ. No skimping though. I do believe you can manage PALMER CORD AERO TYRE at 1/16"  high, but am really looking forward to seeing 'FABRIQUE EN ANGLETERRE' picked out in 1/64" caps! (Just don't go blind like Donald Pleasence.)

Seriously though, I'm really enjoying following this project already.
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2015, 06:50:41 PM »

Quote
you seem intent on self-flagellation

sounds like my life in a nutshell  Roll Eyes Thanks for posting the pic Art!  Smiley
I have to be honest .... I have seen the Palmer Cord marking on the tyres of one of Divs Master's models years ago. Never asked how it was done but guessed at decal or screen print.
Ever since then it's become one of those things that 'I have to do at least once'.

Pete, do you really think I'm that stupid? ....... well, yes I am  Cheesy (but I won't do that ... to quote Meatloaf)

Here's a photo of Divs' Sopwith Triplane at Interscale in 2004
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Re: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
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Russ Lister
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2015, 07:27:52 PM »

That's it Pete ... now look at what you made me do  Wink

I'm no Willard Wigan, but once I got my breathing controlled and resting the paper on the back of a chair .... on top of the bed .... holding paper and magnifying glass in my left hand .... I was getting just below 1mm just freehand.
Now if I can set up a steady platform, find my magnifying glass holder, sharpen the pencil a little more .... perhaps I could get down to that 0.4mm ........  Roll Eyes Tongue
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Re: VA Sopwith Pup 1:16 scale ~ BUILD
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2015, 07:40:20 PM »

I'm impressed!



(There is some writing just to left of the 'fabrique en Angleterre' which looks to be half as small again though, so you need to get down to 0.2mm if you can. Grin)
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