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Author Topic: F1G half tubes  (Read 2498 times)
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billdennis747
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« on: October 13, 2015, 03:57:35 PM »

Please can anyone tell me where to get what is needed for external winding in the UK? I don't want to start sawing tubes, and there seem to be other bits and pieces involved.
thanks
Bill
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hastf1b
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2015, 04:14:33 PM »

For 10 grams of rubber reaches a U-profile from the hardware store.

Heinz
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2015, 04:37:33 PM »

Bill

Why on earth do you want to go for the 'out of body' experience? It only makes life more difficult and is something else to go wrong. A plastic blast tube is all you need as your prop man Gavin will tell you Wink

If you really must, I've seen an old shower curtain rail that looks just right - so there are tubes around within our 6d allowance, and most people who brew their own either grind or saw away the top 40%

Peter
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billdennis747
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2015, 05:12:45 PM »

Peter
I thought it was the way to go. I keep breaking motors and the remains fly out the back of the winding tube to make an angry coiled snake around the peg. I then have to attack it with a scalpel to release it.
I shall have a good look around at Luffenham on Sunday to see what's what.
Bill
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Hepcat
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2015, 05:17:44 PM »

Peter,
What's the matter?  Are you afraid Bill is going to 'Whup your ass' (excuse the Americanism) now he's got interested in Coupe.  The world is changing; Ivan Taylor is building S6b's and Bill is building winning Coupes so lighten up and explain the other little gizmoes he needs to get the rubber back in the fuselage!

John, as ever your friend.
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John Barker UK - Will be missed by all that knew him.
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2015, 05:47:47 PM »

Bill
I know your problem with the squirming motor ball.
It is not absolutely necessary to use a half tube to wind externally. I have drilled a pair of holes in the front end of the blast tube, so I can put a hold peg through after winding outside the fus, then transfer the tube with wound motor to the model. The only compromise is that you still need to hook up the winding rod to extract the tube from the fus. On the plus side, you don't get freaked out looking at the fully wound rubber!

good luck
Don
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billdennis747
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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2015, 05:55:33 PM »

Thanks Don. Yes, I remember Phil Ball winding like that some years back
Bill
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applehoney
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2015, 06:43:14 PM »

> the remains fly out the back of the winding tube to make an angry coiled snake around the peg.

Bill. if the tube is twist-locked onto the peg all the broken rubber remains inside it - can't fly out the back.

You still have to use a blade to cut it free of the peg, of course, but the twisted mass of latent energy remains inside the tube waiting to be pushed out.  A time to be careful; years ago a friend with a good head of curly hair(still has ...I'm envious...) did just that and the ball of flailing rubber somehow flew into his mop.   Became totally entangled and  he had to have an area scissored down to the scalp to remove it all; was a very painful experience for him though we still laugh about it to this day
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 07:07:38 PM by applehoney » Logged
rogermorrell
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2015, 07:26:31 PM »

Here are two pictures of the business end of a F1B half tube.  The hook often called a p-hook where P is for Bob Piserchio.  The model has rear motor peg and you push the tube with wound motor and twist it hooking those hooks around the rear peg, then pulling on the motor and extracting the tube..

The milling and fitting of the p-hook is fairly critical.  I seen F1G sized equivalents of these  item but seeing this involves a financial transaction with a professional sportsman from Eastern Europe , the UK model flyer may have some qualms about doing this . 

However not all is lost. A poor man's equivalent can be made with such a financial transaction or a milling machine .

The first generation winding outside in a half tube did not have the p-hook. They just had a shortened rear peg with a flange. This looks like the p-hook with the hooks cut off.  The flange on the "peg" is needed to hold it in the winding tube.  Then you removed the rear peg from the model , wind outside, slide the wound motor into the model , then poke the full length  rear peg through the peg that is winding tube, secure it on the model , then extract the winding tube.

As someone pointed out you could do this with a 'regular" full  winding tube. The advantages with a half tube is that you do not need a long wire to extract it and you can see the motor as you wind and inspect after it is wound. The latter may help you decide how many hand turns you can put on. In my mind there is no doubt that it is a significant advantage to wind outside for a F1B and probably so for F1G and other classes too.

Roger

 
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Flyguy
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2015, 08:25:07 PM »

The advantages with a half tube is that you do not need a long wire to extract it and you can see the motor as you wind and inspect after it is wound. The latter may help you decide how many hand turns you can put on. In my mind there is no doubt that it is a significant advantage to wind outside for a F1B and probably so for F1G and other classes too.

Roger

Couldn't agree more, I'm a recent convert, I also use it on my oldtimers and small rubber jobs. I've gotten both F1B and F1G tubes in the states from Mike P. at Starlink-flitetech, I've also gotten the same F1G tubes directly from Bukin. Pictures below, including F1G and F1B Piserchio hooks for comparison. Old ones (bottom) were round, new one (top) is square.

As Roger points out, you can make a poor man's equivalent of the P hook with a flanged tube. Then you only have the added step of inserting the rear peg. You can also do a 'poor mans equiv' of the half-tube - I've done it by buying a 3/8" aluminum tube, marking it and cutting it with a Dremel - not my idea of fun, but I don't have many tools. Comes out near equivalent to the bought half-tubes. The main part was filing/sanding the edges so they are perfectly smooth, I've pulled out the tube in tight spaces and there's never been a failure (because of say a sharp burr). The long one in the middle photo below is a homemade one for my P30, only made it because I couldn't buy it! These tubes will easily hold up to about 16 strands of 1/8th, and I've used them for my P30 and several oldtimers, along with the bought P-hooks.

For Coupes, a nice part of having a few tubes is that you can preload them and really get flights in quick at the field. Photo below shows a few tubes in my tube-box, with a few Coupe preloads still left over from my last flying session (baseball guys came and I had to leave, otherwise I would have used/broken every motor!).
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2015, 09:17:50 PM »

I am a relative newcomer to F1G and I already bought the half-tube and related P-hook and the special connector for the prop assembly, from Starlink Flitetech Models. The price was pretty reasonable as I recall.

Last January I flew in my first official F1G competition with rounds.  We were in Eloy, Arizona.  I think we had to get our first flight in by 9:30 a.m. There were either five rounds or seven rounds. I forget how many rounds there were in the F1G event. We had to get one flight in each round, which lasted one hour.

So here I am, this neophyte with a pretty decent Coupe that was very competitive in our local total-of-three flight Coupe contests.  At this time I was still winding inside the airplane, using a blast tube as I recall.  I got my Coupe all assembled early and mounted on my stooge, with the rubber motor loaded.  I figured I would wind and launch closer to 9:30 a.m as it was just starting to warm up from temperatures under 50 degrees F. with no wind.  Well I was winding at around 9:15 a.m. and the motor blew. I was in a panic as I knew I had to extract the broken rubber motor, lube and install a new rubber motor, and wind that new motor.  The broken rubber motor was crammed into the back of the fuselage and I could not remove the blast tube as I recall.  I could not get the motor out. I ran over to a friend who was not flying Coupe and quickly explained my dilemma.  He had some weird tool that allowed me get the blown motor out, along with the blast tube. The fuselage of my Coupe was not damaged. I quickly lubed another rubber motor, installed the motor, wound the same, quickly walked over to the launch area where all the F1G fliers were launching, and got my first flight off just a few minutes before the deadline. I don't think I got a max on that flight.  I did timely fly the rest of the rounds, while also flying in some other events. Turns out that there were a number of world class F1G fliers competing in the F1G event being held in Eloy, and I was not competitive at all.  At least five fliers got maxes on every flight, and there was a fly off. I still had fun and it was a real eye opener.  I think the top F1G fliers only flew Coupe and nothing else.  I came to fly in six events and did so as I recall with some relative successes in a few events. The CD was wonderful and the flying conditions were perfect each of the three days of the contest as I remember.

I am now converting to winding my F1G motors in a half tube. Sorry for the long story but it illustrates my point. If I had been winding the motor inside a half tube it would have been simple to remove the blown motor and replace it with a new one. There would be no risk of any damage to the fuselage from the blown motor.  While the blast tube did protect the fuselage of my Coupe, I think the blast tube was shattered by the broken rubber motor to the best of my recollection. It was made of clear plastic of some sort.  
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Flyguy
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2015, 10:04:11 PM »

Great story! When I used blast-tubes, I used thin-walled aluminum tubes, those are shatter proof, but of course you can still have problems with rubber bunching up at the back. Even with half-tubes, though, it's worth keeping a wire puller-stick in the toolbox - even though I wind outside the plane, I had a motor burst in my Coupe once when I was cranking in a few extra hand winds while waiting for a thermal! Long wire hook with handle let's you pull it all out.

Made one mistake in my above post - 5/8" aluminum tubes (not 3/8) give the same size as the older Starlink/Bukin Coupe tubes.
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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2015, 10:25:32 PM »

Good advice Flyguy about using Aluminum blast tubes.  Just make sure that any sharp edges on the ends of the Aluminum blast tubes are ground so that they are smooth, otherwise you might end up with a sliced rubber motor. I have seen it happen, with disastrous results.

I have seen PVC blast tubes, but I think they are too thick and too heavy.

Yes, its good to have a puller-stick in the tool box for extracting a broken rubber motor.

P.S. - I love your videos on Youtube.  I think I have watched them all. I especially liked the one on braiding rubber motors.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 10:38:05 PM by calgoddard » Logged
Flyguy
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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2015, 10:44:39 PM »

Good advice Flyguy about using Aluminum blast tubes.  Just make sure that any sharp edges on the ends of the Aluminum blast tubes are ground so that they are smooth, otherwise you might end up with a sliced rubber motor. I have seen it happen, with disastrous results.

I have seen PVC blast tubes, but I think they are too thick and too heavy.

No doubt! I use a pipe cutter and then you can sand the edges nice and smooth, never had a problem. I've also tried the PVC tubes, but they tend to be heavy unless you can get 1/32" thick ones, not the usual pipe ones. But 1/32" thick aluminum is nice and light.

P.S. - I love your videos on Youtube.  I think I have watched them all.

I feel like apologizing for putting you through that!  Smiley In any case, I've been thinking of putting up a video on how I use the half tubes, and wind on the fence, it's kind of interesting.

Getting back to Bill's original question, there's clearly a range of options for outside winding, it's well worth a try!

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pbrown
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2015, 02:48:43 AM »

Hi Bill
I made my own Piserchio hooks for my FIBs and F1Gs, much easier to buy them.
If you want I could pick up some European made ones in Switzerland and the end of the month.
Let me know if you want some.
Pete
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 03:14:35 AM »

Quote
Are you afraid Bill is going to 'Whup your ass' (excuse the Americanism) now he's got interested in Coupe. 

John,

I feel sure that he has done that already, and it's par for the course - thus in my case, No Fear as the T shirt goes Grin All these little gizmos you talk about add to the complexity and likelihood of failure, whereas your mate Mr Ferer is reputed to have said "coupe is principally an exercise in air picking". As the saying goes K.I.S.S, along with le loi du sod - what can go wrong will go wrong   Roll Eyes

Bill

Aren't you using a bobbin at the rear peg, e.g a short length of alu tube of larger diameter than the rear peg? I've broken my fair share of coupe motors ( including a couple at the recent Coupe Europa), and if your blast tube has a short slot that slips over the rear peg the broken motor will be contained in the tube when you remove the peg. I can't remember ever having the problem you cite..............  but I'm tempting providence, just wait till next weekend   Roll Eyes. The motor comes out in the tube and a quick poke with a 'pointed stick' soon has it thrashing around on the grass.

If you want to splash the cash on these fancy setups, the choice is obviously yours, and I look forward to seeing what you've decided on at the Midland Gala

Cheers

Peter
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billdennis747
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2015, 04:05:01 AM »

Wow, thanks for all the info - I shall print it all off and study closely. Pete, I'll let you know if I decide to go ahead. I did look at Starlink but there were no prices.
Peter, no I don't do either of those things so I will try and sort that this weekend and see how it goes before going to the next level of complication.
I really am just messing about at the moment and the first thing I desperately need is a proper stooge. And to break motors in properly.
thanks
Bill
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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2015, 04:47:36 AM »

Bill

If you have a 3/16" dia rear peg, some 7/64" alu tube from the K&S metal rack does nicely. Saw off a bit, bell each end with a pair of closed needle nosed pliers and you are ready to rock & roll Grin Too much technology and you end up like the Stones, demanding written instructions on how to operate each bit of electronic gadgetry in their hotel rooms Grin

Happy winding

Peter
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Flyguy
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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2015, 10:22:27 AM »

I did look at Starlink but there were no prices.

I really am just messing about at the moment and the first thing I desperately need is a proper stooge. And to break motors in properly.
thanks
Bill

Go to the 'Specials' page and you'll see that F1G Piserchio hooks are $19, well worth the price in my view, with the hook you can quickly pop motors in and out, all you'd have to do is make your own tube as I note above (if you don't want to buy one). He also has a special with the half-tube, hook, bobbin and storage tube for $49, you can see all the parts on the Stooges/Windings page. He also has several stooges with prices listed there, I have them all and they are all pretty nice.

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billdennis747
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« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2015, 10:27:10 AM »

Thanks again
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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2015, 11:17:51 AM »

Bill

This is what I meant by the bobbin and the blast tube. With the latter I make the slot into a bayonet so it doesn't come loose when winding. The tube is 20mm plastic wiring conduit which is about 99p for circa 2 metres at your local DIY store.

As for the Piserchio hooks, nice though they may be, bear in mind that the $19 will turn into around twenty quid with shipping, VAT and handling charges added. For that money you could get yourself a pound box of rubber from Hooky Wink I know what I'd rather have!

Peter
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« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2015, 07:22:07 AM »

Two more advantages of the half tube system:

* The rear peg stays in the model (at least it does using the Piserchio "claw" rear hook). This is much better then fiddling with rear peg and retaining nut.

* Removing a motor after a flight is quick and easy---simply reverse the loading procedure

Louis (who will never go back to using a blast tube)

PS  I have seen a few home-made claw hooks for F1G made from an aluminum tube and two pieces of 1.5 aluminum sheet. The two claws were sawed/drilled/ filled from the aluminum sheet, then epoxied to the tube.  A hard alloy was used, not the soft junk sold at most hardware stores. I doubt that there was any cost saving compared to purchasing a ready-made hook.  I would not even think of doing this for F1B, were the torque levels are approximately  100 inch-ounces more then with F1G (140 vs 40).
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Flyguy
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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2016, 08:38:37 PM »

I put a video up that shows how I use the F1G half-tubes, a stooge, and a fence for city flying. I apologize for the somewhat crappy video but it might be useful to show that, if a fence is nearby, you can use that in lieu of a stooge!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft0WD036EmM


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