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Author Topic: Golden Age 1/2A Event  (Read 2251 times)
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DerekMc
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« on: May 12, 2016, 12:51:37 PM »

The National Free Flight Association has made the proposed rules for Golden Age 1/2A a provisional event for 2016. This event was dreamed up by Bob DeShields and Mike Schwartz along with others.  A copy of the rules is in the latest NFFS Digest.

There is a dedicated website for the event where you can download the rules at http://goldenage-half-a.weebly.com/

For those who use Facebook there is a dedicated group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/226883101023481/
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 02:15:54 PM »

What a great idea! And to include electric is great. I can fly my E-Stardusters in the event.

Are they thinking about adding the event to the 2016 Nats?

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DerekMc
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2016, 03:12:34 PM »

A direct link to the information on the NFFS website: 

http://freeflight.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/GoldenAge1-2A.pdf
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 03:13:29 PM »



Are they thinking about adding the event to the 2016 Nats?



I read something about including it but don't know of anything official, yet.
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Derek
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 05:25:17 PM »

I do love the idea of the event.

I do have one issue, however:

The limit of the electrics to 325mAh battery is, at least in my experience, very limiting.

I started out using a 450mAh, 2 cell battery (with 2808-8 2600 Kv and an 18 amp ESC) and the performance was pretty dismal. Nowhere near a TD .049. I've flown enough Stardusters in my time to know. I switched to a 2 cell 850mAh pack, and now they fly similar to a TD powered Starduster.

I have tested my power combination many times now, and at 15 seconds, I'm seeing 88 Watts, +/- 1.5.

Doing some Google research, it looks like a decent TD .049 at 18000 RPM puts out well over 100 watts.

If the rules stay at 325 mAh, I'll be sitting out this event.

I just did a few tests, using a couple 2 cell 300 mAh packs. At peak, I get about 28 Watts.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 05:52:38 PM by Starduster » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2016, 05:28:43 AM »

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I have tested my power combination many times now, and at 15 seconds, I'm seeing 88 Watts, +/- 1.5.

Doing some Google research, it looks like a decent TD .049 at 18000 RPM puts out well over 100 watts.

In reality, the difference is actually greater, as with electric the power is watts IN, and i.c it's watts OUT.  Electric power is subject to losses in the wiring, the ESC and the motor itself. I can't remember what typical efficiencies are quoted for motors & ESCs, but overall I would guess at around 90%.

I agree that a 325 mAH limit is unduly restrictive, especially as by & large it'll limit you to the Thunderpower packs. Good though they may be, I've found significant performance differences from pack to pack and they are not exactly cheap.

Over here we tried combined power, mixing i.c with electric, based just on differing motor runs. It turned out to be a bit of a dog's dinner and was eventually dropped.

I hope it works out as the idea is a good one, however at least us electricians do have E36 which to my mind is pretty close to early 1/2A (or so I'm told by those who flew such models in the early days).

Peter
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2016, 08:49:24 AM »




I hope it works out as the idea is a good one, however at least us electricians do have E36 which to my mind is pretty close to early 1/2A (or so I'm told by those who flew such models in the early days).

Peter

Yes, we have both E-36 (F1S) and AMA Electric 'A' and 'B'. Frankly, I'm amazed that AMA 'A' and 'B' are not very popular. Very simple rules, and you can fly just about anything you got. I fly an electric Starduster 600 in 'A' and my Pimenoff #18 in 'B'. I have a blast, and no worries about power/battery combinations.

SD
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2016, 10:42:22 AM »

The way I read the rules they are open to change.If the 325 battery does not give enough go to match the TeeDee then someone will need to tell them, what will. Adding electric to this event was to help with entries and try and find a balance between gas and electric so we can fly together without more separate free flight events.I know the guys that have started this event and they are not electric guys but did want to include them in the event.As with many things it's a work in progress.   
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2016, 11:04:08 AM »

The way I read the rules they are open to change.If the 325 battery does not give enough go to match the TeeDee then someone will need to tell them, what will. Adding electric to this event was to help with entries and try and find a balance between gas and electric so we can fly together without more separate free flight events.I know the guys that have started this event and they are not electric guys but did want to include them in the event.As with many things it's a work in progress.   

That's kind of what I thought.

I think it's a fantastic idea to combine electric and power.

I'm going to start a campaign to have them increase the battery to say, maybe, 1000 mAh?

I would like to know how they came up with the 325mAh number, though...

And, I agree 1,000% with you about not wanting to add more Freeflight events than necessary.
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2016, 11:39:22 AM »

The way I read the rules they are open to change.If the 325 battery does not give enough go to match the TeeDee then someone will need to tell them, what will. Adding electric to this event was to help with entries and try and find a balance between gas and electric so we can fly together without more separate free flight events.I know the guys that have started this event and they are not electric guys but did want to include them in the event.As with many things it's a work in progress.   

That's kind of what I thought.

I think it's a fantastic idea to combine electric and power.

I'm going to start a campaign to have them increase the battery to say, maybe, 1000 mAh?

I would like to know how they came up with the 325mAh number, though...

And, I agree 1,000% with you about not wanting to add more Freeflight events than necessary.

I don't know for sure but the 325mAh probably comes form E36  practice.  The top E36 designs are amazing. Does that transfer to Golden Age 1/2A? I have no idea. The best flying E36 I have seen is Ralph Ray's Apache 2 which is an updated 1/2A?  I wonder if the original qualifies for Golden Age.  6+ minute flights on a 10 second motor run...  with 325mAh batteries. Grin

As for adding more freeflight events than necessary?  That ship sailed long ago. To bad there isn't a mechanism to get rid of an event when a new one is added.
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2016, 11:57:06 AM »



I don't know for sure but the 325mAh probably comes form E36  practice.  The top E36 designs are amazing. Does that transfer to Golden Age 1/2A? I have no idea. The best flying E36 I have seen is Ralph Ray's Apache 2 which is an updated 1/2A?  I wonder if the original qualifies for Golden Age.  6+ minute flights on a 10 second motor run...  with 325mAh batteries. Grin

I would say that E-36 is much closer to 1/4A than 1/2A. We flew TeeDee .020 powered airplanes that were about the same size as E-36 airplanes. Take a look at SAM .020 replica. Most of those are about the same size as E-36 airplanes.

IMHO - If the 325mAh size restriction stands, in order to fly electric, the airplanes will all be 32inch WS or less. That would be a real shame.


As for adding more freeflight events than necessary?  That ship sailed long ago. To bad there isn't a mechanism to get rid of an event when a new one is added.

You got that right! Why in the world is there Cargo, or Jetex, or even Payload (or rubber speed)? I think that if there are less than, say, 3 (or 5) entries in an event at the Nats for two years, the event should be removed from the Nats and the rule book.

When was the last time a rubber speed event was run?

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DerekMc
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2016, 12:10:19 PM »

Ralph Rays's Apache is from 1960 which makes it eligible for the Golden Age Event.  Hmmm......  (Stop laughing Bruce Grin)
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2016, 01:20:07 PM »

Speaking of Apache...it is getting even better, assuming Stan B is still flying an Apache.  Stan tells me that he now has no trouble making a max in dead air with a 5 sec motor run.  !
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 01:27:02 PM »

Speaking of Apache...it is getting even better, assuming Stan B is still flying an Apache.  Stan tells me that he now has no trouble making a max in dead air with a 5 sec motor run.  !

As far as I know he still flies an Apache. And i'm not surprised at all that he is getting that kind of performance. When Stan and Ralph decide to develop a plane for a particular class you know it's going to be a record breaker.
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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2016, 02:16:33 AM »

Regarding electric in the Golden Age event. After consulting with a number of electric free flight flyers, the battery size of a 2 cell Lipo (8.40v) 325 mah. range battery was selected as a starting point. We will review actual results and make any adjustments that may be needed. Remember the electric models must be build to the same construction as on the original plans, the same rule applies to the gas models. No carbon fiber or kevlar material is allowed in the construction of either the gas or electric models. During the NFFS Provisional event time frame adjustments can be made to the rules as needed.
Mike Schwartz
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2016, 05:39:11 PM »

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Speaking of Apache...it is getting even better, assuming Stan B is still flying an Apache.  Stan tells me that he now has no trouble making a max in dead air with a 5 sec motor run.  !

I recall reading in the NFFS Digest or perhaps somewhere else that the E36 Apache uses a modified Pearl E wing and carbon boom fuselage, surely this doesn't count as a Golden Age 1/2A, especially in view of the reply from Mike S which says carbon is banned? I'm sure you could come up with a nice flying wooden electric model using a 2S 325 lipo, but whether it would challenge something with a hot TD 049 is another matter.

I wish those flying the class much enjoyment.

Peter
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2016, 06:05:33 PM »

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Speaking of Apache...it is getting even better, assuming Stan B is still flying an Apache.  Stan tells me that he now has no trouble making a max in dead air with a 5 sec motor run.  !

I recall reading in the NFFS Digest or perhaps somewhere else that the E36 Apache uses a modified Pearl E wing and carbon boom fuselage, surely this doesn't count as a Golden Age 1/2A, especially in view of the reply from Mike S which says carbon is banned? I'm sure you could come up with a nice flying wooden electric model using a 2S 325 lipo, but whether it would challenge something with a hot TD 049 is another matter.

I wish those flying the class much enjoyment.

Peter

Ralph's E36 is the ApachE. It is vaguely similar to his Apache which won a Nats 1/2A event a long time ago and was then kitted by VECO.
Be assured, the ApachE won't be legal for the new event with a gas or electric powerplant.
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2016, 07:29:46 PM »

The original Apache (1960) qualifies for Golden Age 1/2. The distinctive features that carriy over to the ApachE E36 is the incredible amount of down thrust (16+ degrees) and offset rudder.   I have no idea if it would be a competitive plane in the current event. It would be quite distinctive!
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2016, 08:32:24 PM »

I have never seen a finished flyable 1960's Apache.Has anyone else seen one fly?I do remember them at the hobby shop.They looked so different from the other gas models.Please fill me in. 
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2016, 09:04:58 PM »

I built one from the kit back in the day.  It had a golden bee on it and I flew it a few times at my father's farm.  Got stuck in the top of one of the wind break pines and it took me about 1 box of .22's to shoot the limb through so it could fall to the ground.  One of my first ever 1/2A's and I was able to purchase a kit off ebay several years ago but other than opening up the box and fondling it nothing else.
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2016, 09:27:43 PM »

I have never seen a finished flyable 1960's Apache.Has anyone else seen one fly?I do remember them  ;Dat the hobby shop.They looked so different from the other gas models.Please fill me in. 

Tell you what Bruce. You build one and I'll fly it. I have the perfect electric motor for it Grin
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2016, 08:02:40 AM »

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I agree that a 325 mAH limit is unduly restrictive, especially as by & large it'll limit you to the Thunderpower packs. Good though they may be, I've found significant performance differences from pack to pack and they are not exactly cheap.

Just to jump on this a little, I'm all for giving TP as little business as possible. They have been lying for years about the discharge ratings on their batteries. In the open source battery testing world, there has yet to be a battery which has actually demonstrated 70C at anything near this small of a capacity. Best I've seen is in the 40-50 range from the newer packs like Dinogy and Revo. TP's "70C" packs usually come out around 18C in actual use. Turnigy varies a bit but the good packs can dump 25, maybe 30C, for a bit. Hyperion had a good reputation for a while...don't know what the story is now. They've typically been more realistic with their C ratings and it's hurt their business sadly--People don't want a 30C pack because they'd rather buy a 70C pack and never figure out that their 70C pack will never produce even 30C.

Biggest issue though is to get rid of those stupid JST connectors. A good E36 can draw 20A if you've got a connector on there that won't bottleneck it back down to 10. I seem to remember that JST's become inefficient above 7A or so.
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« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2016, 11:35:30 PM »

The provisional rules for E NOS on the NFFS website show no restrictions on engine or battery size for E NOS. Will rules for Golden Age Electric end up like that?
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2016, 08:57:33 AM »

From what I can tell, that's not very likely.
The organizers feel that since E-36 airplanes can fly fine with a 325mAh, then that is fine for this event. I've argued that this is comparing apples (an E-36 is more like a 1/4A airplane than a 1/2A) and oranges (some of the old "Golden Age" 1/2A designs are huge by today's standards). But they are adamant. I've pointed out that a decent TeeDee .049 will produce about 100 watts of power. I'd like to know what power train combination you use to get 100 watts out of a 325mAh pack, because I sure can't get anywhere near that.

Oh, well, I'll never be flying in the North West, so it's no big deal to me.
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2016, 12:21:29 PM »

We don't get much in the Power section, so here's my latest effort.
1/2A Train - truly a classic design, and built by many. TD 049 on pressure, with a Galbreath/Nelson head and a Kustom Kraft needle valve assy.

John
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