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Author Topic: BMJR Tail Firster  (Read 4586 times)
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NeilH
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« on: December 23, 2016, 06:24:14 PM »

Has anyone had any experience with the Tail Firster P30 canard by BMJR?  My son gave me a kit for fathers day and I thought since I lost my last P30 I'd give it a try. The structure seems pretty straight forward but I've heard that canards can be tricky to trim and are very cg sensitive.  The kit directions includes an addendum for some changes to incidence and cg that I will follow.  I'm curious as to why the forward wing is mounted up on a pylon and has significant dihedral.  Also the tip fins are mounted at the wing LE.  Wouldn't they be more effective for lateral stability at the TE, farther aft of the cg?

Neil
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faif2d
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2016, 07:02:26 PM »

If this is the same one that was published as a free Aeromodeler plan It will trim out just fine.  I had no big problems other than how to get the prop to free wheel.  Actually it easier to trim than the Teachers pet design from the same source.  Both were very nice flyers.
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danberry
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2016, 08:31:37 PM »

I flew it for many years. Use the trim addendum. Don't change the fins.
I highly recommend a pop-off wing DT.
I fly it Rt/Rt. I launch it left of the wind.
It's fun to fly it and watch guys stare in amazement.
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danberry
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2016, 11:43:42 PM »

One other note.
I've flown 3 of them. One modified with a different fin arrangement and a rolled fuselage. It didn't perform.
The two built from the kit did fine. They needed a slight bit of washout in the tips. I had a problem with losing the washout over time.
Without the washout it would glide out of lift. And.. that is frustrating. I learned to check the washout the day before an event and to warp it back into place and then to confirm it on the day of flying.
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danberry
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2016, 10:37:31 AM »

Sooooooooooooooo..........................
what have we decided?
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NeilH
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2016, 11:00:36 AM »

Thanks for all of the good info.  I'll stick to the plan.  So far I have the fuselage structure done and starting the wing.
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danmellor
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2016, 11:41:32 AM »

I built the small version, which is similar layout. The dihedral on the foreplane aids lateral stability and can be tilted to adjust turn in the same way as a conventional layout. Mine wasn't too sensitive to thrustline adjustments as there is not much of a moment arm between prop and CG. Good flier once sorted, though! I think there is still some footage of mine on You Tube from the hangar at the UK Nats.

Good luck,

Dan.
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2016, 08:35:54 AM »

Sooooooooooooooo..........................
what have we decided?

This plan form has not been a top preforming design in any category since its inception. If it were, everyone would be flying something similar.

Otf'er 



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danberry
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2016, 10:36:45 AM »

Sooooooooooooooo..........................
what have we decided?

This plan form has not been a top preforming design in any category since its inception. If it were, everyone would be flying something similar.

Otf'er 





That wasn't the question.
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NeilH
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2016, 10:41:03 AM »

I build and fly models for the challenge and satisfaction of seeing a product of my efforts fly well.  I am not always successful, but when I am its great.  If I am competitive with others, so much the better.  I am inspired by those that are at the top of the score sheet but am not disillusioned if I'm not there.  Consequently, you may see my Tail Firster in competition.
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danberry
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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2016, 10:58:35 AM »

I build and fly models for the challenge and satisfaction of seeing a product of my efforts fly well.  I am not always successful, but when I am its great.  If I am competitive with others, so much the better.  I am inspired by those that are at the top of the score sheet but am not disillusioned if I'm not there.  Consequently, you may see my Tail Firster in competition.

It is competitive. And weird.
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Oldtime Flyer
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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2016, 11:02:48 AM »

Sooooooooooooooo..........................
what have we decided?

This plan form has not been a top preforming design in any category since its inception. If it were, everyone would be flying something similar.

Otf'er 





That wasn't the question.

Maybe not, but it's the answer........
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danmellor
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2016, 11:30:32 AM »

Yeah, Burt Rutan knew nothing...!  Wink

Cheers,

Dan
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Maxout
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2016, 12:32:41 PM »

Consequently, you may see my Tail Firster in competition.

He's looking for controversy again. Must have gone off script again...he's done this in three (3) threads today, which is actually below his all time high of something like 6 or 7. Can't remember the specifics of last time, but this time he's directly contradicting members who have actual contest wins at the Nats and elsewhere.
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danmellor
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2016, 01:38:01 PM »

Build it, trim it, fly it. If it's not a world beater; so what? We are in this for fun!

Dan.
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calgoddard
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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2016, 02:29:20 PM »

Neil -

I had to weigh in on this one.

First, your son gave you the Tail Firster kit as a Father's Day present.  It would be a nice gesture if you built it and flew it.  I am sure your son would be pleased.

Second, I have bought a few kits from BMJR models and have been very impressed with their good quality and very reasonable price.  I have not built the Tail Firster, but may be inspired by this thread to do so.

Third, I too am happy if a model I built can be trimmed to fly well.  Sometimes I win, sometimes I don't, but I have fun in each contest that I enter.

I like the way canard aircraft look when they are flying.  I have built a few and you can get them to fly pretty well.  In my experience there are a few things to keep in mind with a canard model.  The positive incidence required in the canard wing is often quite high, as much as 12 degrees depending on the model.  The Tail Firster will turn toward the low side of the canard as I recall, the opposite effect of stab tilt in a tractor.  You'll need to hold the prop and fuselage with one hand, from behind, to launch.  

Please keep us posted on your progress.  
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NeilH
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« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2016, 04:18:22 PM »

It seems like many organizations that I have belonged to have their resident curmudgeon that feel compelled to add their 2 cents worth.  Thanks for all of the positive feedback and I'll keep you informed on progress.  So far the fuselage is framed and the wing center section is in work.

Neil
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applehoney
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« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2016, 05:34:50 PM »

I've taken a P30 through flyoff flights against a Tail Firster and the only reason I finally won  was that my model hit lift and the canard settled into the adjacent downdraught.  Was impressed by it.
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danberry
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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2016, 05:57:49 PM »

Sooooooooooooooo..........................
what have we decided?

This plan form has not been a top preforming design in any category since its inception. If it were, everyone would be flying something similar.

Otf'er 





That wasn't the question.

Maybe not, but it's the answer........

Nope. It's a pantload.
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NeilH
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« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2016, 07:13:06 PM »

Danberry,
A few days ago you said that you had flown one and recommended a pop off wing d/t.  That is my plan but do you happen to have any photos or drawings of you system?  I've never done this before so I would appreciate any help in this area.  Anyone else can jump in too if they have any ideas.

Neil
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calgoddard
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« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2016, 07:45:40 PM »

Neil -

This should help.

If you can't read the document, PM me and I can send you a PDF via email.

I have had good results with this set up.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: BMJR Tail Firster
Re: BMJR Tail Firster
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danberry
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« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2016, 07:50:39 PM »

I don't have any photos just now. I can describe it.

It's a fuse. The snuffer tube sticks straight into the wing, adjacent to the spar. A little sheet fill helps there. I use one #32 wing rubber around the dowels and across the wing in an 'X' that touches the fuse. The wing is tethered to the nose with braided dacron. I have a snap-swivel so I can take it apart. The swivel is a must.

My first one I just did what the plans show on the stab. It would flop back and put the plane into a maple-leaf spin. It would take a LONG time to get out of the thermal. Lost it in Kansas City. Might've found it but I had a tracker issue. I think that the antenna got yanked out of the unit.

Build in the stab tilt. If you need to change the turn, shim the wing with 1/64 ply. Or layers of scotch tape even.
The wing must be keyed.

I use a Rt/Rt/ trim. Thrust will adjust the power. I launch it left of the wind and very steep. This keeps the wind from under the left wing for that first bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynoqQqeZ8mI&feature=fvw

This is a link of video from the King Orange 2007. I'm wearing the green Luddite shirt. You might notice that it was VERY windy.
A side note: I won P30 that day. The plane does well in the wind.
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danberry
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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2016, 06:02:22 PM »

Here's another thing.
The first one I used a 4 strand 1/8" motor. Something 1900 turns and I used the Peck prop from the kit.
I eventually decided to go another direction so as to be able to get through ground turbulence- I fly in the wind pretty often.
I switched to the yellow Czech prop and a 6 strand motor. The Czech prop has higher pitch. I had to adjust the CG with the new setup. The 4 strand motor was prone to bunching in the nose. It goes up with more authority on the 6 strand motor.
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NeilH
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« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2016, 06:47:06 PM »

I'm considering a 6 strand 3/32 motor about 26 inches braided.  I know John Kamla has has a lot of success with his Marie with this combination and you can put in 1500 - 1600 winds.

Neil
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danberry
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« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2016, 07:17:14 PM »

I'm considering a 6 strand 3/32 motor about 26 inches braided.  I know John Kamla has has a lot of success with his Marie with this combination and you can put in 1500 - 1600 winds.

Neil

It's a thought. I didn't have good results with the long motor run. I know some guys that do have success with it, most times. Once in a while it doesn't work for them.
If you're gonna do the long motor run you need to be at minimum weight. My TailFirster is leaning on 55gms now. It does fine in a thermal but if I miss it gets icky in a hurry.
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