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Author Topic: Little [s]Brown[/s] Natural metal Jug.  (Read 12885 times)
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Prosper
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« Reply #200 on: December 23, 2019, 08:19:30 AM »

Ho ho blinkin', ho, everybody. The Thunderbolt is still as it's shown in the above post. I always think of this as a Christmas model, and decided to leave final repairs until Christmas.

Or really, did I postpone the final repairs 'cos I'm scared of making a complete mess up of the tissue patch? I must consult Dr. Freud. "Ach ja. I see zere is ein yellow stripe on ze ving. Zis is very significant".

Anyway as it's Christmas I decided to decorate the model with some baubles. There's paper-folding involved, in the great tradition of Xmas deccies - but this is paper impregnated with CA. The drop tank and bomb nose are mashed paper - wetted-out with CA when the paper has dried. All the sheet bits are from pre-made CA/paper sheet. It's fitting really because when I looked for info about P-47 drop-tanks, one of the types mentioned was actually made of impregnated paper - whadya know? The type of tank I copied is metal alloy for sure, but anyway. . .

The tank complete with bit of steel and tiny rare earth magnet weighs 0.8g. The bomb as seen - no metal or paint - is 0.45g.

If I recall rightly that an ounce is about 28g, and there are 16 ounces in a pound, then that makes this bomb a one-thousandth pounder. I don't know if I'll get this done by 25th Dec, but the model probably realises it's the thought that counts.

Merry Christmas everyone,
Stephen.
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piecost
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« Reply #201 on: December 23, 2019, 09:59:08 AM »

Hi Stephen,

I love the accesories. Can you please give a description of how you formed the drop tank? Was it using a male or femail mold? The surface quality looks very good.

Tim
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Prosper
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« Reply #202 on: December 23, 2019, 04:56:20 PM »

Season's greetings, Tim. The drop tank has a balsa male mould, turned on a domestic electric drill. The finish can be rough. I've been making small items using what I've loosely called papier mâché for years, and perhaps this term is misleading, because if I remember from childhood, papier mâché means dunking pieces of paper in some form of paste until they're soft then plastering them on a male mould as seems fit, then letting the whole lot dry.

What I've typically done is to soak a single layer of paper, then coax it around a male mould (perhaps also pushing the mould thru a cutout in a sheet material, samelike plunge-moulding a plastic card item). When it's dry it can be prised off the mould and carefully wetted out with thin CA, then sanded and re-coated and repeat until the desired finish is obtained. This works for little airscoops or blisters.

This drop tank is the biggest item (by far IIRC) I've made this way, and differs in that I've used the cheapest, near-pulp, office paper called 'Copier Paper', and I've torn it and ripped it into strips and truly soaked it for say ten-fifteen minutes then really mashed it onto the mould, rubbing it and scratching it to make it a mess of fibre - all the while adding sloshes of water as req. The result is anything but smooth, and now the balsa mould is soaked too so it all needs a good while to 'dry out before the fire' as novelists used to put it.

Next it can be teased and prised and lifted and coaxed from the mould and it will hold its shape. Then I dose it drop by drop with thin CA and the result is a very coarse and very heavy blank, and I've found that this can be sanded even with 120 grit wet&dry (used dry only) to remove most of the material rapidly (dust extraction highly recommended). I use a naked lightbulb close by to give the glancing light you need to see how the work is progressing. Some other nationalities may prefer to use the sun, which is an option outside England. Then the work can be refined as you wish, adding CA if needed to fill dry pockets in the layers of paper mash, and even to patch little holes or craters in the surface.

It will help a lot if you then slice the balsa mould in half lengthwise. I make my moulds from a stack of sheets tacked together loosely, so splitting them down the middle is easy. Now you can plonk the refined paper shell on a half-mould and run a fine pen round the mould on the inside, to mark the  shell, then cut to that marked line, so you have a half-shell that will join its 'other half' correctly.

If that's all as clear as mud, let me know and I'll try again.

Stephen. - By the way folks, When looking for pictures to base my  P-47 baubles on, I was drawn into re-watching the whole of a rather good P-47 documentary and I noticed what really looks like washout in the wing to me. It's wise to be cautious where the trailing edge is so curvy - can be misleading - but here are three frames from the video. Anyone go for washout?
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OZPAF
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« Reply #203 on: December 26, 2019, 12:27:19 AM »

Ah - er, no I don't think so Stephen. I think it the effect is the result of tapering wing thickness and the curved TE - but then it's still a guess!. Merry Christmas and what a neat drop tank and Bomb. The 1/1000 lb bomb impresses me. Highly dangerous device, that.

John
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Prosper
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« Reply #204 on: December 28, 2019, 05:50:58 PM »

I managed to get most of this work done around Christmas but haven't quite finished. The ticklish bit was the tissue repair, which came out not quite so well as I'd secretly hoped, but not at all so badly as I'd realistically feared.

I had a couple of pre-painted tissue wing panels (top right of pic 1) over from the original build. I can't remember why I rejected these for the original build.  Anyway I cut the repair patches from this tissue sheet, and folded large fringes into the patches to help tug them smooth once applied to the wing. The application involved tweezers and in the stress of the moment I didn't notice that the tweezers were pressing deep dents in the top wing tissue. The small bottom patch was within the area of the leading edge that is sheeted, so no dents. If this model survives another year I think I might strip it right down and make some airframe improvements then re-cover it entirely.

At the top of the last pic is a stack of little 3mm neodymnunmiumum magnets - I'll be using one each for bombs and drop tank.

Stephen.
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C VEICH
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« Reply #205 on: December 29, 2019, 12:50:25 AM »

Wash-out is pretty standard on second world war fighters (and many other types) and I would be quite surprised to learn that the Jug did not incorporate it.  Do we have reason to believe that it did not? 
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Prosper
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« Reply #206 on: December 29, 2019, 02:54:41 AM »

Quote from: C VEICH
Do we have reason to believe that it did not?
Now you ask, Chad, no particular reason in this case. The thing is, most of my models are heavily researched and a thing I really try to establish is whether a subject had washout or not. However, this was more of a 'fun build' with no particular effort to dig for the truth. Probably I didn't look for washout (or none) and I've now surprised myself 2-3 yrs later by noticing what looks like washout. Washout was common but not a given - the Tempest had none, nor - from memory so don't quote me on this - the Spiteful. I can't seem to remember that the Bf. 109 had washout either.

Stephen.
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Prosper
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« Reply #207 on: December 29, 2019, 03:51:38 AM »

To avoid having to do anything serious or useful (it is Sunday morning after all) I've done a quick trawl of the international network, to see whether I could see washout on an arbitrary selection of WWII combat types - just whichever popped into my head. I know that the Spitfire and Fw. 190 have washout and seem to recall that the P-51 does too. I mean evident washout, not 0.3 degrees sort of thing.

This is quick, pictorial and subjective, but I know from experience that trying to establish the truth from the literature - particularly from the horse's mouth as in manufacturer's written material - is a very unrewarding task.

P-39. . . .doesn't look like it.

F4F. . . .No.

P-38. . . .hard to tell - curvy tip and changing airfoil section. Certainly not obvious.

Hurricane. . . .No.

A6M2 Zero. . . .Yes, pronounced.

Yak 9. . . .Yes.

F6F. . .No.
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Prosper
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« Reply #208 on: December 29, 2019, 03:52:55 AM »

And. . .
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packardpursuit
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« Reply #209 on: December 30, 2019, 02:26:43 AM »

Don't know If P-47 did/didn't have washout. However, Spitfire  did, in all of it iterations. Cannot believe the follow-on Spiteful wouldn't, as well, but am open to confirmation or correction! I would refer anyone wondering about P-38 washout to check out LeRoy Webber's scale drawings if Lightning, which appear in Builder's Plan Gallery. I believe them highly accurate and washout appropriate, for the type. I know for a fact, F4U didn't. Don't think the 109  did.  Can't comment about  A6M, except top say most people miss the double thickness taper of wing.

Loved the great side view of Tempest II! The hump in the flat panels of the upper cowls is clearly shown. American pilot/collecter  Kermit weeks now has a Tempest II and V, to be restored to flying condition. He has a vid on U-tube that make me want to put a straight edge on that fuselage!!! Would love to know what is flat wrapped and what is compound curve.

As always, you sure seem to show us how to do things "more correctly'!!! And that is no complaint.
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Prosper
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« Reply #210 on: December 30, 2019, 01:49:12 PM »

Thanks for the additions charlieman, and a Happy New Year to you. The Tempest II Kermit Weeks bought was one I used to see in the 1970s. I do wonder if either of his Tempests will ever be finished, judging by the last video updates I looked at on YouTube. The Spiteful question is easily answered because I made a model of it so have a good stash of relevant photos.

The P-47 is ready to fly again, but the grass is wet, day after day after week after week. I'm not asking for completely dry grass by any means, but it's absolutely superloaded with water, all the time. Landing on it would be as good as landing in a puddle. We have some mostly rain-free days ahead apparently, and some breezes, so maybe things will improve.

Stephen.
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packardpursuit
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« Reply #211 on: December 30, 2019, 04:27:19 PM »

Prosper,
 by using a couple of drafting triangles held and manipulated on my computer screen, and your photo, it appears to me that the Spiteful has measurable washout in both root and tip  planforms , although hard to be exact due to cannon, radiator duct and other items obscuring LE/TE views.  Airfoils appears to be very much like a P-51 tip airfoil, in that there is noticeable "reflex" in the after portions of all airfoils. Any hard data  on the airfoils and their relative geometry?

In the  3-view data I have on the Spiteful, it would seem the airfoils have often suffered from assumption, and not fact.
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Prosper
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« Reply #212 on: December 30, 2019, 05:32:37 PM »

Hi charlieman, here are the root and tip foils. With a plastic ruler against the screen, I measure no washout at all, but to convince myself I need to reboot into windows xp, where I can use a graphics program with some utility. Online I use linux and all the "apps" "addons" or whatever they're called are trash, including the 'go-to' GIMP graphics program. I'll re-check when I'm in win xp but I'm pretty sure there's no washout. I found no hard data during my research for the model, which was considerable.  The Supermarine aerofoils were very P-51-ish. . .I don't know where the 'laminar flow' research was coming from, or whether the US and UK arrived at these type of foils independently.

Stephen.
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Prosper
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« Reply #213 on: January 04, 2020, 06:36:08 AM »

At last I've flown this model, just a few 5 or 10 sec flights. The grass is wet but acceptably so and the RH is way down to 81% in a light nor-west breeze. I decreased prop pitch and installed a new motor of just 20" length, in recognition of the greater weight and drag of the bombs and tank. The model flew fine right off - a bit of elevator or thrustline tweaking might be necessary as power is increased. It behaved in a lively fashion on its low turns, which suggests that perhaps it will be able to use longer motors. A 20" motor would restrict it to flights of maybe 40 or 50 sec at a rough guess.

I was pleased to see that the external stores 'wiped off' as the model landed in the way I had hoped for. So any 'hang ups'Cheesy I had about the setup not working have been dispelled. In the longish grass, one or more of the stores would detach on each landing, and the green bombs were hard to spot so the model had to be approached cautiously. I couldn't resist adding the little propellers on the front of the bombs - to 'set them off' so to speak. I must say the model looks good in flight - not necessarily due to the baubles but just its very bright and colourful appearance against the drab winter trees and sky.

Stephen.
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OZPAF
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« Reply #214 on: January 06, 2020, 08:25:48 AM »

I had to look hard to see those props Stephen! The model is typically very impressive - pity about the non scale paw holding it Smiley

John
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« Reply #215 on: January 06, 2020, 03:23:12 PM »

[quote author=Prosper wrote: "I must say the model looks good in flight - not necessarily due to the baubles but just its very bright and colourful appearance against the drab winter trees and sky."

My .02 worth, SCALE outlines and shapes are the most important aspects of achieving a realistic looking flying model. This is an area of modeling that directly translates to scale distances and appreciation of ACCURATE PERCEPTIONS by viewer(s).

Stephen,Your reports and efforts are most interesting, insightful, and entertaining!!!
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Prosper
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« Reply #216 on: January 08, 2020, 12:48:11 PM »

Thanks John and charlieman.

Today provided a fleeting chance to fly the model between bouts of rain and wind. Unusually mild (11°), and the grass was dry enough despite the bogginess of the soil underneath. A couple of  non-disastrous flights with about half-turns encouraged me to wind 'er up while I had the chance. Unfortunately the motor has proved itself to be a rattler. I sometimes find that the motor rattles at the start of a flight but in this case the clattering lasted throughout. The problem seems to be the collar around the motor right at the front - I think it's allowing the motor to cant sideways. I didn't have the time to verify this suspicion though. This meant that the model was flying lamely and landing with loads of turns on board. The rattling is an audible signal of lost power - it's probably vibrating the airframe (adding drag presumably) as well as losing energy in the motor. I couldn't get more than 30 seconds. At least I learned that the stores don't fall off in midair when shaken.

I've uploaded this video of a slightly less clattery flight but still only 30 seconds.

Another thing I found out today was that although the mashed paper which the droptank and bombs are made from is tough. . .it can't survive being trodden on! To fly I have to jackknife my way through the wires of a fence, an activity which gets increasingly difficult with age, especially as the ground falls away on one side of the fence. I think what happened was that in getting myself and the model between the fence wires I pinged off the drop tank which flew down into the decline, and I tramped right on it. With me outside glasses on, everything within several metres range is a blur, and I get all twisted and contorted in negotiating the fence, so I didn't notice the missing tank 'til I was back indoors. That nearly stopped the flying, since the exercise here is to see how the crate flies with things dangling off it. But I decided that the air doesn't much care what the droptank looks like, so I prodded it back into shape as best I could and glued it up with CA. The 'squashed' picture doesn't really convey how badly crushed and split it was.

Stephen.
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RalphS
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« Reply #217 on: January 08, 2020, 03:20:35 PM »

We used to find drop tanks that looked very much like that, in the Fens, when I was a kid.

Great storyline, keep it up.

Ralph
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« Reply #218 on: January 08, 2020, 06:43:02 PM »

Very impressive in flight Stephen. Particularly like the landing approach with the yellow blur of the tips of the rotating prop. It looks magic in flight.

John
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« Reply #219 on: January 09, 2020, 03:46:11 PM »

...of a slightly less clattery flight but still only 30 seconds.
You might not have been satisfied, but I'm impressed.  It's a lovely thing to look at and it flies well.
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« Reply #220 on: January 10, 2020, 05:20:21 AM »

Looks great, flies great. Simply impressive. The overhead shot around 12 - 15 seconds where it tracks away from the camera, with all the hardware hanging from the hardpoints, looks very much like a real P-47 in flight from a contemporary WW II film. Only the audio gives it away. Watching it with the audio turned down, I can almost hear the R-2800 thundering by. Even the dented drop tank earlier - looks very scale-like.  Very cool build  Cool .
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Prosper
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« Reply #221 on: January 10, 2020, 08:54:17 AM »

Thanks TL and c_o_v.

Quote from: cast_off_vortex
I can almost hear the R-2800 thundering by.
Only command it and it shall be done, O Master. . .

https://youtu.be/nJuZpPWa2lI

There it is Smiley. TBH I've thought of doing something like this for years but only today have I set to wrestling with an audio program and then getting the audio and video lined up. It works! A bit clumsy but it's my first attempt - and it's going to be rare ever to find audio that quite fits the flight pattern of the model. Okay it's a bit of silliness but I do recommend a listen, and not on some tinny cellphone but on the best audio playback you can muster. The motor rumble on my hi-fi is quite profound.

Notes: the aircraft sound is a genuine P-47 recording from WWII by the BBC and available from their online sound archives. The music? 'Little Brown Jug', of course! Glen Gray and his Casa Loma Orchestra, recorded in 1940 [and in the public domain BTW].

I'm quite chuffed at managing to cobble that together Smiley.
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cvasecuk
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« Reply #222 on: January 10, 2020, 09:34:16 AM »

Excellent model. Excellent flight. Excellent video with sound.
Your skills know no bounds!
Ron
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Tim Horne
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« Reply #223 on: January 10, 2020, 10:04:35 AM »

That's excellent Smiley Smiley
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MKelly
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« Reply #224 on: January 10, 2020, 10:27:12 AM »

Well done Stephen!  The model holds just the right attitude while flying to make it look very realistic, and the bombs and drop tank further develop the full-size look.  BTW, I've been playing with Titebond-infused 1/32" sheet for details on my Broussard build - has made forming parts like the oil cooler fairing much easier.

Looking forward to more progress reports on your Tempest.

Mike
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