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Author Topic: Guillows Spirit of Saint Louis  (Read 1428 times)
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Vyper
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« on: June 04, 2018, 04:01:00 PM »

Hi,

I am somewhat new to the group and returning to the hobby after a 25+ year absence.  My wife purchased the Guillows Spirit of Saint Louis for me as a gift.  I'm a bit of a Lindbergh fan and I would like to see this model fly.  Studying the plans, Guillows calls for the free flight versions to to be built with a significant dihedral added to the wing.  I am curious if it may be possible to build in about 3 to 5 degrees of washout into the wing to achieve the required stability and still preserve the scale look of the original Spirit of Saint Louis? I have built balsa models in the past using this method and I found that building washout into the wing does improve stability.  I am curious if anyone else has tried this with this kit and what were the results?

Also, any other building tips would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance for your replies.

Best regards,
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Crabby
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2018, 04:17:53 PM »

Hi Vyper, I was all set to build this model, but got distracted by other projects. There are several plans on outerzone that you ought to look at, just for the sake of being well informed. I think that model will fly flat winged. The fun part is gonna be figuring out how to do that aluminum swirl cowling. I recently found a very lightweight silver compound called Rub & Buff at Michael’s. If you chuck up a small buffing wheel in your dremel you might be able to pull it off. I bought some pressure adhesive sheets that looked ok at first but the swirl is way out of scale. Whatever. Good Luck and I am gonna watch this thread!
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ZK-AUD
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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2018, 04:55:54 PM »

Hi Vyper.  The answer to your question is yes but I think 3-5 degrees is excessive.  You also have to consider the effect on the average angle of attack of the wing.  I build a few scale models and usually go with the scale dihedral for high wing monoplanes.

Important thing is weight - build light and you can get away with murder.  Be especially careful with  Guillows as they have a reputation for putting Oak in their kits, so don't be afraid to use their parts as templates and cut your own wood.  Make sure the wings are particularly light and of equal weight - helps if you get a bit of pendulum effect
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billdennis747
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2018, 05:21:45 PM »

I built the diesel model by Ron Moulton. He said it was stable with a flat wing and it was; remarkably so (the small tail was a different matter).  I've seen plenty of similar models flying well with around one degree. I would build it flat and see what happens; modify only if necessary. Nor would I bother with washout.
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Vyper
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2018, 06:38:30 PM »

Thanks to everyone for the replies.  Somewhere in the deep recesses of my mind, I seem to recall that an aircraft with a high wing is equivalent to having 2 degrees of dihedral built in right from the start.  I could be wrong on this though, so take it with a grain of salt.  The idea of washout is just a thought that I happened to have.  I may just build two wings. One with washout and one without just to experiment.  I am thinking that I may need to increase the size of the tail surfaces slightly.  I am aware that Guillows wood is rather heavy.  I think I will be substituting a fair amount of this kit with lightweight material.  It's going to be an interesting build.  Thanks again!

Best regards,
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Vyper
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2018, 09:16:16 PM »

Hi Crabby,

"There are several plans on outerzone that you ought to look at, just for the sake of being well informed."

 I've been looking at the plans on outerzone.  They are interesting.  It seems that the designers of those models didn't worry about dihedral or washout at all.  The one thing I noted that I think is very good was the plans called for 1 degree down thrust and 2 degrees of right thrust at the prop.  I recall that was typically done on most models to counter the prop torque.  As for the swirl pattern on the nose, I have some ideas.  As I proceed into this model, I'll be experimenting with that also.  Thanks for the info.
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Vyper
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2018, 09:21:18 PM »

Hi ZK-AUD,

Now that you mention it, 3 to 5 degrees of washout is extreme.  If I do add the washout, I think it will be on the order of 1 degree to perhaps 2 degrees max.  I went over some notes that my dad made 45 years ago on the old Comet Stinson SR-7.  He added 1 degree of washout to the model he built.  That became a standard for us on later models.  Thanks again for the input.
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ZK-AUD
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2018, 09:55:10 PM »

Some people don't bother but I use washout on everything as a matter of course.   If my models stall under power they tend to mush and then resume flying rather than dropping a wing and spinning.

I think your Dad was right -  For a model with say 21" span and a chord of 3.5" I would chuck in about 1/16 which is roughly 1 degree. 

I think stability is easier to achieve if you build with a positive turn in mind.  If you make your SOSL go right and induce a positive turn you only need to worry about it dropping the right wing.  I'd go with differential washout  say a degree and a half on the left and a degree on the right,  then make it go right with rudder for the glide and right thrust for the power.  the differential washout will oppose the right turn and keep the right wing up.

https://www.facebook.com/Aveteknz/videos/  Check out this link of my Sommer Monoplane peanut.  It has next to no dihedral,  but it has washout.  Watch what happens when it hits its own wake turbulence and how it recovers
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Vyper
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2018, 11:45:05 AM »

Hi ZK-AUD

It's interesting.  The wing drops slightly and then the plane recovers and continues it's flight.  I would bet that if it had not had washout, it would have simply rolled into a spin and crashed.  Nice recovery.  Thanks!
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John Webster
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2018, 02:51:15 AM »

Full size aircraft with constant chord wings (Spirit of St. Louis) usually do not have washout. Planes with tapered wings (Hurricane) or elliptical wings (Spitfire) need washout. Spitfires have 3º at the tip rib.
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Vyper
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2018, 08:11:19 PM »

Hi John. Just curious why that is?
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John Webster
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2018, 05:03:34 AM »

http://www.dauntless-soft.com/PRODUCTS/Freebies/Library/books/FLT/Chapter17/WingPlanform.htm

The above is a one page explanation of stall distribution for various wing planforms.


The technical explanation has to do with Reynolds numbers. In the mathematical formula that shows what lift a wing will generate one of the numbers above the dividing line is the Reynolds number. The Reynolds number includes the wing chord; the longer the chord, the higher the Reynolds number. If the tip chord is half the root chord the tip will produce half the lift of the root (disregarding fuselage effects).
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« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2019, 09:02:57 AM »

For anyone in the UK with even the slightest interest in the Spirit of St Louis I can recommend the Haynes Owners Workshop Manual.

https://www.theworks.co.uk/p/transport-books/haynes---spirit-of-st-louis---ryan-monoplane/9781785211676?CAWELAID=720011340002695281&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3dHu9pyl4wIVAbB7Ch1Jig47EAEYASACEgJKB_D_BwE

At only £4 it is less than your favourite magazine!  There are 180 pages of text, photos and drawings-all you need for a flying model short of the model plan and some balsa.  The story of Lindbergh's flight is covered in detail.

Also be sure to check out the re-enactment of the flight from New York to Paris due to take place on May 20th 2020.

https://spiritofstlouis2.com/
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charlieman
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2020, 08:54:10 PM »

The swirls in the aluminum cowls of Ryan Airlines products were made with a 3.5" or 3.75" diameter wire brush, chucked into an electric motor, which was fit into a specially made frame/stand, in a crude drill press fashion. With two hands, the mechanic held the shaped panel over a domed block mounted under the spinning brush and depressed a pedal with a foot. this brought the brush and drill into contact with the aluminum, embossing the 'machine tool pattern. The reason for the trademark finish was to cover poor aluminum " bumping" skills of Ryan mechanics and students. It also provided a memorable finishing touch!

I have over 900 photos of Spirit, when it was taken down from its hanging mount, a few years back. The cowl panels were individually photographed with overhead camera, as close to 90 deg as possible and a common measuring tape appearing in each view, for scale. I believe I may have a photo , too, of the original Ryan swirl machine.

Re: Washout. SOSL, AFAIK, had none, but a number constant chord highwing aircft did/do indeed feature considerable washout. Taylor Chummy probably first commercial claim, 1926. Taylor's later designs had it too. Taylor Cub (became Piper), Taylorcraft/Auster, Luscombe and Aeronca had/have noticeable washout, as well.

I found the flying report of the no dihedral SOSL FF model, in Aeromodeler, VERY interesting. Can't recall if he also enlarged the scale  stab?







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billdennis747
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2020, 03:34:02 AM »

SOSL?
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Bryanair
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2020, 03:45:26 AM »

Spirit of St Louis
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billdennis747
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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2020, 04:05:43 AM »

Thanks Bryan! IWNAG with acronyms so  SOSL, AFAIK went SOMH.
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FLYACE1946
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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2020, 10:54:35 AM »

Did he make the takeoff ?

For anyone in the UK with even the slightest interest in the Spirit of St Louis I can recommend the Haynes Owners Workshop Manual.

https://www.theworks.co.uk/p/transport-books/haynes---spirit-of-st-louis---ryan-monoplane/9781785211676?CAWELAID=720011340002695281&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3dHu9pyl4wIVAbB7Ch1Jig47EAEYASACEgJKB_D_BwE

At only £4 it is less than your favourite magazine!  There are 180 pages of text, photos and drawings-all you need for a flying model short of the model plan and some balsa.  The story of Lindbergh's flight is covered in detail.

Also be sure to check out the re-enactment of the flight from New York to Paris due to take place on May 20th 2020.

https://spiritofstlouis2.com/
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charlieman
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« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2020, 01:19:59 PM »

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/6057245706/lightbox/

Here's a very revealing photo of actual SOSL fuselage frame, 1927. It is not an M-2 but dimensionally identical to M-3c variant.

Note the "extended" rudder pedals, with welding torch burns evident. Lindbergh supposedly requested the pedal be moved forward, but they just swung them forward , adding a small  tube apex, so that the pre-existing cables could be used. 

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charlieman
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2020, 05:05:41 PM »

The torch blackened paint on the forward upper outrigger landing gear strut attachment, along with the altered centerline axel swing attachments below, suggests  specific contradictory chronological sequence of events  that differs substantially from the "official" vision of how/who actually designed, constructed the craft, and did so, so quickly.

It is the retention and existence of the of modified centerline fitting (cut laterally thru the centers of the axel pivot bolt holes) that positively identifies this particular airframe as the original NYP fuselage frame. It is also the incongruous item that raises so many thought provoking It's obvious this particular fuselage frame was originally built to work with  standard Ryan M type landing gear and was retrofitted to outrigger type some time (weeks?) AFTER an initial point of completion.

So! How many chart edges, do we suppose "Slim" could have avoided having to trim, had only "designer" Hall not chosen to include substantial "V" structure and fittings for a landing gear not  used (not to mention absolutely USELESS) in a supposedly "all new" frame and landing gear design?

 Grin

Years ago (70's?) I collected 9 individual Williams Brothers Wrght J-5 cylinder kits ( took about two years, as I recall, culled from various SF Bay Area hobby shops!) for my own "some day"1/12 scale Spirit FF model project.  This  discussion has prompted  me to locate them, this morning, for a look see. I stll have in their oriinal packaging.  Perhaps "some day"  has finally arrived? Would one want to risk these beauties on a  flying model?  Roll Eyes
 

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charlieman
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« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2020, 01:05:47 PM »

http://www.charleslindbergh.com/history/sec/7Model_NYP_uniqueWing-post1990.jpg

IIEC, this small sketch rendered by Donald Hall, and is believed only one off two known NYP related construction drawings (2nd is on reverse) made before SOSL's famous flight. It is a crude but VERY accurate representation of what got built.

I believe Hall should get absolute credit for (re?)designing the 46' wing. Probably the greatest single contribution to the success of the effort. However the basic complex nature of the spars configuration(radical tapering of flanges) was already evident in M series, going back to M-1 #1(1926), and in fact, a Jack Northrop contribution.

I've got a WHOLE LOT more original data and or links to original NYP photos etc.. Didn't mean to hijack OP's thread. Will continue if there's interest?

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