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Author Topic: Beginners attempt at Scale Rubber Power, Guillows 17" Chipmunk  (Read 5099 times)
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« Reply #75 on: August 13, 2018, 03:54:44 PM »


Hey KF.

Do you know if Guillows are going to laser this series of kits?

Nice work Dan, looks like a flyer...

Andrew

As to this series being laser cut, Guillow has all the series redrawn and test built for laser cutting.  They have to buy more laser cutters to have the capacity.  The scale models are not their only revenue stream, in fact not their largest, so they have to balance all their tooling purchases among all their product lines.  Have patience, it will come.


KF

Hi KF,

Thanks for that update, it is very interesting.  I understand about the economics, but it is nice to know that they will become laser cut at some point, the designs (which are sound) deserve better than the die crushed parts currently offered...

Andrew
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« Reply #76 on: August 13, 2018, 04:54:55 PM »

Okay, it is now 99% complete, will be test flown before the week is out.  I still need to decide what glue to use to attach the canopy and whether to use the bungee cord sized rubber supplied with the kit or scrounge up some thinner, lighter rubber.
All up weight with the monster rubber band but minus maybe 2 grams or so of nose weight is 26 grams.  I sort of wish I hadn't put the decals on as they didn't adhere all that well. The anti glare is tissue sprayed with black lacquer then used glue stick to stick it and the walkway to the plane. The cockpit interior was painted black and I glued the instrument panels to the bulkhead.

This is definitely a learning model, and I need to write down the do's and don't's I learned in this process before my some-timers kicks in and I forget.

If they do re-issue this one in laser cut I will definitely build another one, though I've noticed that going to laser cut usually almost doubles what they charge.
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Re: Beginners attempt at Scale Rubber Power, Guillows 17" Chipmunk
Re: Beginners attempt at Scale Rubber Power, Guillows 17" Chipmunk
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« Reply #77 on: August 13, 2018, 05:25:42 PM »

I use a product called RC-56 canopy glue. Today I think it is marketed by Pacer as 560 Canopy glue. It really is a product you can find in the sewing section of fabric stores as a fray check compound.

DON'T use CA on canopies it will fog them badly!

That motor has spoiled more good flying ships than a warped elevator. I'd look for some 3/32 rubber and make a loop 1.5 time the hook to post distance. After you get Don Ross's book you can change the prop and motor then you can expect some O.O.S. flights! Shocked

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2018, 05:34:23 PM »

...
If they do re-issue this one in laser cut I will definitely build another one, though I've noticed that going to laser cut usually almost doubles what they charge.
Hum, I recall with the series 300 that the price stayed the same. Now jobbers were discounting the old die crushed kits to clear inventory.

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2018, 06:25:53 PM »

Actually what I should have said is that looking at similarly sized Guillows models, it seems the laser cut kits were almost double the price of the die-squashed ones. If they come out with a laser cut 17" Chipmunk for near the same price as the one I built, I would consider that a win!
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« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2018, 06:37:44 PM »

I don't want to muddy the waters.  But if you are searching out reference for FF models, (and you've already ordered Mr. Ross' book) try to get McComb's book on making scale models fly.  In it, he talks about finding CG.  He uses a tail volume method that is really tops in my book.  If you visit Volare/Shorty's Basement blog, there is a great article there.  And the book is loaded w practical trimming advice.  

As for the 900 series models being laser cut.  I will have to jump in on those!  I like all of the models in the series.

My Typhoon would fly a little longer than a minute typically,  sometimes though, around 80 seconds...but eventually got heavy from multiple repairs.  A final issue that I couldn't easily repair was a mid-air that snapped the fuselage at the root rib.  After that it flew in an odd, crab-like manner.  Looked like a wounded duck as the wing would flap occasionally. Paid $9 for the kit and had loads of fun.

I built the chippie but never flew it, gave it to a friend to try and spark his interest. No dice.
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« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2018, 09:08:27 PM »

HA HA HA HA Mooney that’s a great visual! I am gonna laff about that for awhile!
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« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2018, 05:15:34 AM »

You can use CA to attach canopies, but you just have to use it in very small amounts, and make sure that the inside is free from moisture and fingerprints, other wise as Konrad warns, it will fog the plastic.

I normally hold the canopy in place with pieces if masking tape and pick up the CA with a pin, and let it wick into the joint, in a few key places.  Then to finish off the joint and neaten things off you can cut thin strips of tissue, coat them in glue stick and stick them over the joint, since they are thin they bend quite well around curves.  This can then be strengthened with PVA on a brush.  Any excess glue stick or PVA is then easily removed with cotton bud (q tip in US?).  I use a similar method to pick out framings etc...

Andrew

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« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2018, 06:24:22 AM »

The tissue strip technique suggested by Andrew is one I like for small lightweight models - in fact, if the canopy is properly trimmed, fits well and rests nicely in place without needing a lot of pull from the attachment method, you can use it as the sole attachment, with the tissue strips soaked in PVA or similar white/yellow glue.

This facilitates painless dismantling in the future if you need to for any reason, e.g. accident repairs, improving your cockpit interior, or (often for me) some monstrous chunk of dust or debris has found its way to the inside of the canopy and is blighting its appearance.

For a permanent fixture I'd much rather use a tiny smear of a clear epoxy than CA as it does not introduce the fogging risk. However, sometimes it is expedient or necessary to use CA in the vicinity of a canopy (e.g. a field repair). If you have to do that there are several measures you can take to reduce the risk.

1. Before installing your canopy coat it with Johnson's Klear (Americans) or an equivalent product. In the UK, the one I like is Quick Shinem available inexpensively from Lakeland
https://www.lakeland.co.uk/20286/Quick-Shine-Floor-Finish-800ml

We use this stuff all the time in plastic scale modelling. It can be used for many other purposes: it is an excellent general purpose gloss varnish and can even be mixed with water-based acylic paints to thin them for airbrushing and give a nice finish. You can brush it all over a canopy quickly with a soft wide brush, and it will self-level and leave a tough clear fog-resistant surface. I have also often used as a substitute for nitrocellulose dope to seal a tissue-covered surface - it works pretty well, very similar to Eze-Dope, though requires some different techniques from cellulose.

2. If you have the choice, conduct your cyano operation on a low humidity environment. I have a dehumnidified garage so that's ideal, but in any case pick a dry day rather than one that threatens rain.

3. Cyano fumes will tend to rise, so after gluing, position the aircraft as much as possible so that the cyano is lower than the component at risk of fogging.

4. Ensure that the area is well ventilated. On something like this Chipmunk have the noseblock removed so that any fumes can disperse, don't have a sealed fuselage.  Using a hair-drier on a low heat will help move air around - and also reduces the local humidity.
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« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2018, 05:38:27 PM »

Any crafter's super tacky white glue will dry clear.  Just don't smear it and have the patience for it to dry.  After I glue the canopy down, on a scale model, I use a strip of tissue to trim out the edge and cover the joint.

Hope this helps!

KF
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« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2018, 08:05:41 PM »

I found some fabric glue that I had from making the sails for a whirligig, and glued the canopy on with that. So until I get the rubber for the motor I'll just have to be patient.
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« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2018, 05:14:14 PM »

Success!!!  Well sort of, The first test glides were done and I'm happy with the results so far. I haven't had a chance to get the proper rubber for it yet so I stuck in the monster rubber band that came with the kit, added 3 grams of nose weight and headed for the back lawn that was getting a bit shaggy. Wind was a whopping 1-2 mph, Smiley First glide was nice and level with a slight turn to the left. Second I pushed a wee bit harder and got a bit of a stall with a straight recovery.  I believe and gram or so of nose weight is still needed. Trying to track down some reasonably priced tungsten putty since a small chunk of lead hanging off the nose with double sided tape is a bit ugly looking!

I want to thank all the folks that pitched in with advice, critiques and patience while I got this little beastie assembled and in the air.  Already looking forward to the next build, just haven't decided what it should be.
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« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2018, 06:52:09 PM »

Very nice,Dan.

Scott
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« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2018, 07:02:20 PM »

Congratulations, well done.

Has the Ross book come in?

Now I like to have 3 or so builds going on at the same time*. Some times I’m in the mood to cut out parts. Other times I like glueing structure together. Then there are times I want to cover.

*Those that know me know this is a lie, as I often have one or two dozen going at any one time.

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2018, 08:35:52 PM »

The Ross book arrived a couple days ago, been working through various parts of it. Math was never one of my favorite subjects, but I believe my wing loading is .7 grams per square inch and recommended balance point is 1/4" forward of the bottom spar.
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« Reply #90 on: August 18, 2018, 10:04:08 PM »

It's not you!  Wink

Even I as an engineer, can't get the confounding use of incompatible measuring system to make any since! Nor do I understand not using a ruler with rational units. The British Imperial units have far too many denominators.

As many "normal" folks aren't comfortable with math I'd have thought that a 10 was easier. What is this inch crap? I thought that we Americans fought a war to get out from under english rule. Guess that didn't mean the ruler.  Cry I know it isn't the fault of the British they through the system over board in the 70's. Rather the blame is with us Americans and Reagan.

I have to admit that it was toy airplanes that helped me get through my primary school math. Remember this was in the day of "new math". At least it was a bit better than today's "Common Core" methods. Roman Numerals are for easier than that!

Do the Chipmunk plans show the balance pin on the wing tip?

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #91 on: August 19, 2018, 07:57:09 AM »

Nope there was absolutely nothing on the plan to indicate CG. I ended up calling Guillows to get the information.
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« Reply #92 on: August 19, 2018, 10:07:12 AM »

Its really not too far off many similar configurations, My first thought was maybe a Miles Sparrowhawk, or Arado AR-96 no doubt there are going to be countless better examples, but you can catch the drift but their CG's will put you right in the ballpark. The thing about Guillow's is if they don't have it on the plan its because they don't know it, and you are on your own! My bet is you are gonna find it's close to the landing gear attach points.
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« Reply #93 on: August 19, 2018, 11:31:43 AM »

Nope there was absolutely nothing on the plan to indicate CG. I ended up calling Guillows to get the information.
Well that is odd. I have from the 900 series  [email protected] P51, [email protected] Bird Dogs, a Trojan, a Typhoon, and a Skyraider kits or plans. Some show a pin in the wing tip, the Bird Dog does not. Looking at the plans the designs look very formulaic. It is odd that my  best flying 900 series were the Chipmunk and Bird Dog without a CofG location.  I wonder if as a kid without a CofG to worry about I flew my planes tail heavy, saving weight. Maybe I corrected for this with elevator and thrust lines. Oh, to have the ignorance of youth.  No Not really!

Some odd things I noticed are that the Trojan has a split canopy and that my kits have paper markings “decals”. Is this an indication of how old they are? Do todays 900 series come with water slide decals?
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« Reply #94 on: August 19, 2018, 11:42:01 AM »

The kit I just bought had the water slide decals, which really suck. They didn't stick all that well and are incredibly fragile. I destroyed one of the instrument panel decals trying to get it to stick and I can tell that the wing decals are going to flake off fairly quickly.
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« Reply #95 on: August 19, 2018, 11:53:49 AM »

Well the paper ones aren't any good. They are from stiff paper and don't lay against the tissue. Often times with old water slides the aplication of a clear enamel will stabilize the decal prior to water dipping.
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« Reply #96 on: August 19, 2018, 04:11:53 PM »

Does the decal sheet have a date code on the back as in the attached photo?  It's month and year.  The lead time on the decal sheets is about 3 months so the kit was likely assembled about three months after the date.  Problem is that it's a one digit year code so was that decal sheet made in July of 1997, 2007. or 2017?  Huh

KF
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« Reply #97 on: August 19, 2018, 05:27:21 PM »

Original Titebond and a microwave oven are made for each other. Ok, a toy builder that shows in your build.

I've used the Titebond II/microwave oven trick ever since I worked in a professional wood shop.  However. do not ever, EVER, EVER forget to take all the pins out before putting a part of the model in the microwave to cure the glue!  (You might also consider keeping a CO2 fire extinguisher near the microwave.)  Putting a model in the oven at 200 degrees (F) for a half hour also cures aliphatic glues. Don't go any hotter, if the water in the glue boils it will push the joints apart.

When I use CA I always use kicker immediately, sets the glue and kills the smell.  I use a dribble bottle with a 0.010 nozzle to drip it on, never spray the stuff.

KF

Here is what happens if you forget a pin, Lesson learned in 2010.

KF
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« Reply #98 on: August 19, 2018, 05:36:18 PM »

I'm sure there was a date, but I would have to rummage through the shop trash barrel to find it, nah, ain't happenin'

On a happier note I just ordered a package of 3/32" rubber from FAI. It was a choice of 16' for $12.80 or 160' for $20.30 so I ordered the 160'. I plan to build many more models so I don't expect it to go to waste.

I read the chapter in Don Ross's book about rubber, and have a question. It says on braiding a motor to wind in approximately 100-125 turns "clockwise"' Is that clock wise from the pilots perspective or from the winders perspective? It isn't mentioned in the book.
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« Reply #99 on: August 19, 2018, 05:44:43 PM »

Winder (the direction of prop pitch, for counter rotating props. Actually any prop).

I think most folks don't braid anymore as it puts an uneven load on the strands when fully wound. But if not going to full power (often a good idea with scale models) braiding can control the moving of motor weight during the glide.

I think it was mentioned to use a spool on the rear of the motor at the rear of the fuselage.  This helps a lot with the smooth transition of power from the motor to the prop. It also helps prevent the motor from bunching in the rear (changing flight trim).
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