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Author Topic: Can anyone identify a model from the mid to late 1990's?  (Read 365 times)
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Dan Snow
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« on: March 21, 2019, 07:30:17 AM »

Hi Folks,
I recently brought home an R/C pylon racer from my parents house. Dad passed in 2001 and it has been hanging in his shop since then. I was wondering if it is from a kit, or maybe a set of plans? Or perhaps his own design? I don't know.

Wingspan is 36", OS Max 15 engine, 4 channel. Model is in excellent shape, no cracks, tears or damage visible, outside of a couple of very small dings likely hanger rash.

I doubt I'll ever fly it, I got rid of all my R/C stuff almost 20 years ago when I got into other expensive hobbies. That and the only decent field for flying R/C  around here is owned by a club that charges almost $100/year membership. I realize that they have done a ton of expensive work building shelters outbuildings and paving and fencing, but that's too steep for a once in a great while flyer.  I'm having fun getting started with rubber powered freeflight, not getting into the R/Crat race again!! Smiley Smiley Smiley

And one other question: After sitting unused for more than 20 years, the engine is really gummed up solid.  Looking for recommendations on how to free it up. I pulled the glo-plug and gave it a quick squirt of WD40 into the cylinder and into the exhaust port, but I have a feeling it really needs a long soak in something to break things loose.
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Can anyone identify a model from the mid to late 1990's?
Can anyone identify a model from the mid to late 1990's?
Can anyone identify a model from the mid to late 1990's?
Can anyone identify a model from the mid to late 1990's?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 09:06:50 AM by Dan Snow » Logged

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Konrad
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2019, 01:50:40 PM »

Sig Doubler II. It (the design) is much older than that! It is a fine sport plane. That Hershey bar wing is very forgiving!

WD 40 has no place around an engine. It is often used mainly because it is a compressed fluid. And as such one can blow off stuff. But other than than keep it away from the engine.

Ok to loosen the engine. It is a very good sign that the engine is stiff. That means there was oil on the parts and that it is unlikely to have much damage from rust. The best way I know to free the engine is with a heat gun that should allow the parts to break free. Then add methanol (with the heat source well away) and keep turning over the engine by hand. Don't forget to do the same with the carb. If bring the engine back to serviceable condition you will need to take it apart (at least the back plate off) to make sure the wrist pin and connecting rod journal is moving relative to each other. This area is the Achilles heal of the 2 stroke engine. It need to be clean and re-lubricated before one tries to start the engine.

Also the ring needs to be free. You should see some up and down movement in the ring, inside the piston ring groove. You will see this as fluid squishing in and out of the piston ring groove as you change the direction of the piston travel.

But if you aren't going to run the engine it is best to leave the engine gunked up as this gunk is actually protecting the engine parts.

All the best,
Konrad
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 02:09:41 PM by Konrad » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2019, 03:01:28 PM »

Thanks for the info Konrad. I vaguely remember Dad saying something about several club member building something for racing. It might have been earlier than I thought, memory gets fuzzier as one gets older!!

Good to know about the WD40. I don't have any methanol, but what about marvel mystery oil? Would that hurt the engine?  I would like to see if I can get the engine running, if for no other reason than to sell it to someone that would fly it. Hate to see it just gathering dust in my shop.

I looked the kit up online and it looks like a lot of builders didn't build it with the cowl cheek blocks!  The only racing I ever did was when several of us built a Quickee 500 with cheepo K&B 15's and ran them one summer, and then a couple years later we had a few races with our Gremlin Combat flying Wings with YS40's! Talk about insanity!!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 03:15:58 PM by Dan Snow » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2019, 06:55:59 PM »

Air tool oils is nice for its corrosion inhibitors. But nothing like gunked up castor oil. I don’t think it has very good solvent properties to cut through the dries castor gunk. Denatured alcohol from the hardware store works well.

I usually use automatic transmission fluid in my engines, that don’t have silicone components, as an after run oil.

As I think you want this model to go to a good home leaving the engine stuck might be a good way to discern if the perspective buyer actually knows what he is buying. The Doubler II was an old old entry level 1/4 midget AMA 422 .15 class racing ship.

I never knew of a low cost K&B 15. All the K&B 15 I know of were racing engines. The first schnuerle wart 15 and the Cox/K&B Conquest 15 were in the $79 range in the 70’s and 80’s. Wow running a Scat Cat on a .15cid must have made for a lot of slow close racing! Most Q500 were run on K&B 8011 .40 and later on the 4011 .40. Some clubs went crazy and allowed us to run the K&B 6.5cc. Little did we know where that would go with the Nelson Q500’s!

Did YS make a 40? I know I had a lot of YS 45's, loved the pump!



Correction, I think the OS 15 uses a lapped P&L set, no piston rings. I know little of OS, other than to stay away.


P.S. There really is nothing wrong with the sport OS 15 I see in your dad's plane. It looks like the prop may be too large for the engine airframe combo a 7x6 or a 7x5 might be what is needed to pull this ship along at speed. An 8x4 or 8x6 belongs on a trainer like the Goldberg Eaglet 50

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2019, 08:54:15 PM »

Konrad you're right, it was a YS45. Told you these old brain cells have a hard time remembering sometimes. A YS45 with tuned pipe on a 48" flying wing weighing 3.5-4 pounds was an adrenaline rush to be sure.  Our best guess with very crude measuring was somewhere between 80-100mph!

I likely had the other racer wrong as well. They were small, low wing, and designed for a 15 size engine.  I thought it was a K&B sport engine we used. It was the same engine some manufacturer used to make a gear driven radial engine using several of these engines. According to my dad it made a horrendous racket and had little power.
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« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 09:06:49 PM by Dan Snow » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2019, 09:06:47 PM »

Konrad you're right, it was a YS45. Told you these old brain cells have a hard time remembering sometimes. A YS45 with tuned pipe on a 48" flying wing weighing 3.5-4 pounds was an adrenaline rush to be sure.  Our best guess with very crude measuring was somewhere between 80-100mph!

I likely had the other racer wrong as well. They were small, low wing, and designed for a 15 size engine.  I thought it was a K&B sport engine we used. It was the same engine some manufacturer used to make a gear driven radial engine using several of these engines. According to my dad it made a horrendous racket and had little power.
Ah the K&B Sportster .20 or .28 those were neat engines, but often totally misunderstood! They were low RPM 2 cycle made to mimic a four cycle engine. They were made out of high silicon aluminum. other than the crankshaft and bolts there were no ferrous materials used. I ran one of those geared radial engine It looked great on a slow biplane!

More like 150MPH to 180 MPH for a properly pitch YS45.
 Those PDP ported 40 (Como 40) on the Scat Cat, Quickie 500 would break 100mph easily.

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2019, 09:12:00 PM »

Yeah, we were using two flagmen and a stop watch to try and time the bastards, so yeah, we were likely off by a factor or two.  Grin Grin

 Dad said someone in his club had the radial mounted on a WWI bipe.  Claimed all you could hear was gear noise on the thing. Grin Grin
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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2019, 09:56:29 PM »

Yep, straight cut gear!
Also the exhaust was piped into the gearbox/motor mount housing to supply lube to those gears. This housing was an effective expansion muffler.

Too bad K&B screwed up the engine to save 5 cents on the masking for the chrome plating. Rather that chrome plate the cylinder (as originally designed) and the subsequent masking of the ports and the outside of the cylinder casting. The new owners (venture capitalists) thought that plating the piston rather than the cylinder would gain much the same durability. It DIDN'T! The failure mode of the K&B Sportster is flaking of the chrome in the piston seal band form localized over heating.

It also suffered from the trend at the time to use less and less lube in the fuel. The K&B Sportster needs 20% oil in the fuel.

Do you still have that engine or should I say all 6?

By the way that lapped OS15 also needs 20% or more lube in the fuel. As it is a lapped P&L it should be 100% castor oil as the lube. But never go down to less than 50% of the lube being caster oil.  A modern true ABC engine can tolerate less lube but not these old technology lapped steel and iron P&L's
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2019, 07:46:35 AM »

I never actually saw the radial, just know what my Dad told me about it.

We only ran our little racers about one summer, mainly because the engine was extremely finicky, and it was rare to get two flights in a row where it ran consistently.

After soaking overnight in MMO I can turn the engine over. Nothing seems to be binding or grinding, it's just fuel that had 20+ years to dry out.  I'll pick up some denatured alcohol at the big box hardware today and start it soaking in that.

Picking up this plane got me looking back. I had a lot of fun in my 30+ years of flying R/C planes. From my 2 channel .049 powered glider that I first learned on, to my YS120 4-stroke powered Safir, pattern plane. And all kinds of models in between. Getting involved in pattern near the end is I think a main contributing factor to my walking away from the hobby. When I started to compete I soon discovered that I wasn't enjoying flying as much because instead of just going out just flying, I was having to set aside time to practice, practice,practice.  Yes it made my flying better, but it was more like work than fun.  Anyway, 98% of my R/C experience was fun and no regrets.  Today I am enjoying the hobby of flying models again with rubber powered free flight. Especially when for less than the cost of a gallon of fuel I can get enough  balsa, tissue, glue and other bits to make and fly 2 or 3 different models, and I can fly them in my yard or the local park!

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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2019, 09:26:07 AM »

Yep, in life one needs to keep one's eye on the ball. With this hobby it is to have fun. I spend much on my time in both worlds, I like the RC conversion of stick and tissue models, Guillows, Dumas, etc..

I also like to race slope and EF-1. As it takes a crew to race, practicing isn't likely to happen much. So there is little time lost actually practicing.

I bet the Sportster was cantankerous! I'm sure you guys were leaning them out trying to get that race advantage. They just weren't that kind of gal!

Do re-oil the motor well after the alcohol soak.

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2019, 10:03:26 AM »

After a 48 hour soak in denatured alcohol it de-gummed to where I could flip it over with just hand tightened prop, and after holding my breath and using the best, newest phillips head I had I was able to disassemble it to the point shown below.  The carb barrel is still gummy so everything has gone back into the alcohol soak for another day.

Short of running to my not so local hobby store for a jug of fuel I'll never use, what would you suggest as a lubricant for storage that won't gum up right away?

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Re: Can anyone identify a model from the mid to late 1990's?
Re: Can anyone identify a model from the mid to late 1990's?
Re: Can anyone identify a model from the mid to late 1990's?
Re: Can anyone identify a model from the mid to late 1990's?
Re: Can anyone identify a model from the mid to late 1990's?
Re: Can anyone identify a model from the mid to late 1990's?
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2019, 10:42:35 AM »

George Aldrich recommended Rislone.  I have some gun cleaning mixture that used GM automatic transmission fluid.  It was a specific one and I do not know which anymore.  "Dexron II, IIe or III Automatic Transmission Fluid" I went and looked it up.
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2019, 01:26:07 PM »

Any of the ATF* are fine. I think even air tool oil is fine as it has a lot of rust inhibitors in it.

One needs to give a lot of attention to the wrist pin. Heat up the case fast with a heat gun to expand the aluminum case. Then push the steel sleeve out the top. This will allow you to pull the connecting rod off the crank pin. Clean the wrist pin journals as well as you can with solvent (alcohol). No need to stress the wrist pin keepers by trying to remove them. Once everything is moving well in the wrist pin journals force out the solvent with heat. Then re-lube with a non-vegetable oil.

Again heat is your friend with the wrist pin and loosening the carb barrel.

Mark the cylinder to case position prior to removal.

* As I recall Dextron has a lower lubricity than the Ford ATF. This was to help the friction bands and disks grab better. The main function of ATF fluid is to cool and act as a hydraulic fluid and corrosion inhibitor.

Is that an 8x6 Master Airscrew? That is the size prop I used on a baffle 25.  While the 15 can turn this prop I get much better performance allowing the engine to spin higher up in the RPM range. This means using a lighter load prop. For a racer like the Doubler II I'd look at a 7x6 for the 15.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 02:41:28 PM by Konrad » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2019, 01:46:21 PM »

If you guys are still using liquid fuel to power your models, you really need to look into the use of bladder tanks.
These solve almost all the weird engine runs we got glow. They are often an easy retro fit.  
http://www.dubjett.com/accy2015.html
http://www.darrolcady.com/Tettra_Tanks/tettra_tanks.html
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 02:37:36 PM by Konrad » Logged

Cut it twice and it's still too short!
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