Logo
Builders' Plan Gallery  |  Hip Pocket Web Site  |  Contact Forum Admin  |  Contact Global Moderator
July 16, 2019, 10:27:59 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with email, password and session length
 
Home Help Search Login Register
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: P-30 Spitfire wing questions  (Read 3739 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
randoloid
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 8
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 123



Ignore
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2018, 04:37:35 PM »

OK this is gonna be my first mylar wing. Whats the adhesive? I have the tack iron and the heat gun already. Where I fly the best time is early am and the tall grass is wet so I have been wanting to do a mylar covering for a while now. Also, in P-30 what are the rules concerning dethermalizers?

When you come upon a great solution here I want to know about it.  I'm currently building a Polecat X and covering in mylar.  I'm better than the average bear with my tissue skills but so far I absolutely SUCK EGGS when it comes to covering in mylar.  I've tried a couple different thinned contact cements and tried UUH glue stick (based on domoremath's Youtube videos).   Through my research I've learned that the mylar I'm using  (.05 chrome or silver) is difficult to work with and doesn't shrink nearly as well as clear.

I've all but decided to go back to tissue and make a pretty bird-  as I still have lots to learn about picking air and competition flying before I start focusing on building lite.

Logged
Starduster
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 34
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,331




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2018, 04:50:18 PM »

OK Starduster, I am gonna try it out since you speak so highly of it. I assume I am gonna let it dry tack free before bringing on the mylar and heat? Roll Eyes

I'm sorry if I misled, but I swiped on a thin layer and attached the mylar with the glue wet. I don't know if the glue is heat activated (it is not after it sets, I did test that)
Logged

"We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty..."
Crabby
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 132
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,081


Topic starter
I never met a modeler I didn't like



Ignore
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2018, 10:20:36 AM »

Here is a few pics of the fuselage. I am following the plan, and given all the cross-diagonals I see here as well as in other P-30 types, in the wings and fuse, I can surmise that there is going to be a significant amount of rubber power discharged. The plan calls for 50 grams empty weight and 10 grams of 3/16 rubber. I am thinking more like 1/3 total weight is rubber...that's the ratio I tried to use in other models. Whatever. The real question I ask here is can I use magnets to hold the wing on or rubber band it on? I like the idea of magnets but dislike the prospect of the wing blowing off upon launch. At this point the weight of the wing and fuse combined is 23 grams, I am shooting for the required 40 grams, but will be closer to 50-60 by the time the covering is on. It looks like its gonna be floral paint and mylar.

Oh and BTW. Please don't make the mistaken assumption that I possess any more than a rudimentary understanding of the P-30 type. I have been flying and crashing scale most of the time, which is probably why this Spitfire had me upon first sight. This is probably not the P-30 you would have suggested to a newcomer. Now that we are past that, please do make the relevant suggestions! I am also gonna ask about the proper front and rear-end tackle for handling a probably big fat braided snake of AMA Tan!
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
Logged

The Threadkiller!
billdennis747
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 51
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3,528



Ignore
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2018, 10:57:00 AM »

The real question I ask here is can I use magnets to hold the wing on or rubber band it on? I like the idea of magnets but dislike the prospect of the wing blowing off upon launch.
I've built two models with the wings held on with magnets and both eventually plunged to their doom. The trick is to get get the right balance between not letting go, and some degree of knock-offness
Logged
flydean1
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 17
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 913



Ignore
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2018, 01:35:29 PM »

I would go with bands.  Easier to find that balance.  Also, the fuse looks awfully short, and what is that void for just behind the wing?
Logged
Crabby
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 132
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,081


Topic starter
I never met a modeler I didn't like



Ignore
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2018, 05:04:34 PM »

ok, just to put that issue to bed, here's the look, its a loooong fuse I cant really get it all in the frame without shooting "down the line " a bit!
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
Logged

The Threadkiller!
Indoorflyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 12
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 515




Ignore
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2018, 06:14:22 PM »

That is a funky looking fuselage structure. I hope the "canopy" adds some structure to the area where a longeron wants to be. Otherwise it looks like an unintentional DT in the making...
Logged

Make the same mistake on both sides; nobody will notice...
Mefot
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 7
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 293




Ignore
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2018, 06:34:47 PM »

I have to agree with Indoorflyer, although I have to assume you are going to add f4,f5, and f6 which will add some longitudinal strength along the top longeron. I have looked at this plan for a while, ( with a view to building the model ), so am enjoying this build  Smiley
Logged
Crabby
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 132
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,081


Topic starter
I never met a modeler I didn't like



Ignore
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2018, 08:36:16 PM »

Brothers this is not a build thread! The fuse, of course isn’t finished by a long shot, yes the canopy needs to be added. I only showed the fuse to help ask a question, whether or not to use magnets to mount the wing! Angry Sad Smiley Wink
Logged

The Threadkiller!
calgoddard
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 23
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 933


AMA, NFFS & FAC Member



Ignore
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2018, 12:11:45 AM »

Crabby -

I used pairs of small Neodymium magnets to removably mount the wing on a 30-inch wing span Rearwin Speedster that I built.  It was a lot of work to epoxy the magnets in small aligned sockets so that the attachment force was sufficient. I learned the hard way that changes in humidity can shrink the balsa wood that supports the magnets so that the attraction force in such an attachment scheme can be significantly lessened, which can lead to disastrous consequences.  

When I built my similar sized BA Eagle II a few years later I used a different wing attachment scheme.  It included a couple of carbon fiber composite rods and the wing was secured to the underside of the fuselage with a pair of #16 office rubber bands secured to the rods in crisscross fashion. This attachment scheme was much easier to construct and more reliable.  The wing skews on a hard tip-first landing but stays with the model and there is no damage.

There needs to be continuous longerons on the top of your fuselage in the canopy area of your Spitfire P-30.

Buy a 9 1/2-inch GizmoGeezer front end with a spinner for your Spitfire P-30.  It offers three important advantages: 1) reliable free-wheeling; 2) no need to braid motors to avoid motor bunching and CG shifting; and 3) precision thrust line adjustments.

I am still hoping that someone creates and posts a plan for a P-30 Me 109 so that we can enact a Battle of Britain with the model you are building for the 80 year anniversary coming up soon.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
Logged
Crabby
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 132
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,081


Topic starter
I never met a modeler I didn't like



Ignore
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2018, 07:15:04 AM »

I am not finished with the fuselage. I am going to add a full sheet graphically implied canopy soon enough, just like the plan, which will be more than sufficient to finish that area of the fuse in a very strong solid way. Guys, thanks for your un-solicited concerns about the fuse structure! I am keeping that area open to facilitate adding magnets should I decide on that route, in mounting the wing. But it looks like I am leaning towards rubber bands anyway...

There will be no acetate canopy or pilot, or roundels or camouflage, or any other scale effects. Just the simply implied shape reminiscent of a Spitfire. I may use bright orange Mylar for visibility!

FYI, I am thinking of doing a sister ship in the shape of a FW Ta-152, same way, no guns, camo or nazi nincompoopery involved. Just the shape, no politics, no pilot. This thread is about the wing, and its mounting technique, not a build thread for the whole model.... Whew! Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 07:31:30 AM by Crabby » Logged

The Threadkiller!
Crabby
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 132
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,081


Topic starter
I never met a modeler I didn't like



Ignore
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2019, 10:03:21 AM »

Since I accidentally breached my original intention of this thread to only concern the P-30 Spitfire wing, and got into the fuselage,.... here is how I am dealing with the canopy area. Looking rather crude at this point because I painted it silver and didn't like the finish, I am in the process of filling and sanding.  But the fuse is very strong in this area, to quell the nervous stomachs of some guys who were thinking I was gonna just go with the previous "look" after I adjusted the wing saddle....I am going with a very polished looking silver/lt.blue. mock canopy. Not intending to poke at the scale crowd, I like the shape of the Spitfire, but find in this application the presence of a clear canopy to be against the grain. I am thinking of an overall color scheme, but certainly not the roundels and camouflage. I have been falling for the Ta-152, having great moments for a P-30. I have been dreaming about a P-30 version for a while. Just waiting for a mojo uprising!
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
Logged

The Threadkiller!
LASTWOODSMAN
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 26
Offline Offline

Canada Canada

Posts: 899


REAL PLANES HAD ROUND ENGINES AND TWO WINGS



Ignore
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2019, 10:19:41 AM »

It is looking super Crabby.   Looking forward to your color scheme and canopy.   Great work - your "MOJO uprising" is inspiring ...   Smiley

LASTWOODSMAN
Richard
Logged

OH, I HAVE SLIPPED THE SURLY BONDS OF EARTH ... UP, UP THE LONG DELIRIOUS BURNING BLUE ... SUNWARD I'VE CLIMBED AND JOINED THE TUMBLING MIRTH OF SUN-SPLIT CLOUDS ...
vtdiy
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 12
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 303




Ignore
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2019, 10:35:32 AM »

Crabby, great lines, such beautiful shape! I'm sure it will look great in orange.

I've never attached a wing with magnets, so not qualified to say. I have had hatch failures with magnets in R/C. Glue adhesion was the main cause, they are so powerful when adjoining, compared to the glue surface area. The shiny coating of rare earth magnets isn't the best gluing surface either. In failures, usually one pulled loose and joined the other. I'm sure it can be done right -- I just don't personally trust it totally. I had better luck with a magnet and steel connection, less adhesion over a larger glue surface area, but that was moderate sized R/C, and this is FF, where sharp focus on weight is the deal. I guess it depends on your experience, Crabby.

I kind of like rubber bands for a dumb reason....the first R/C planes I built, Mambo, Jr. Falcon, Champ, in the sixties had rubber bands, so it reminds me of that time. They are hard on leading and especially trailing edges, used to harden them with a bit of wire. I dunno, seems like you will know best what appeals to you, and that's going to be the absolute right way to do it.

If you do use magnets,(and probably you were already planning this) I do think it helps to use a short tapered peg or pegs aligned fore-n-aft at the front of the wing inserted in sockets in a fuselage bulkhead or former to lock the LE in place, and magnets only at the rear of the wing, holding the TE up into position. The wing can nock away toward the rear, while you have positive retention forward during flight, and less forces trying to separate the magnets.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 10:49:10 AM by vtdiy » Logged
vtdiy
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 12
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 303




Ignore
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2019, 11:01:22 AM »

Thinking about rubber bands a little more, from an aesthetic point of view. I suppose a person could peg the leading edge, as mentioned above, and use an internal rubber band arrangement to hold up the TE, instead of magnets. A clever mind could work out the details.

The advantages -- rubber bands get positive retention by hooking, rather than depending on small glued surfaces, and get stronger as any separation increases. Magnets the opposite. If a force separates them, attraction drops rapidly.
Logged
Crabby
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 132
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,081


Topic starter
I never met a modeler I didn't like



Ignore
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2019, 12:00:41 PM »

Good am comrades!
I probably should have committed to a build thread on this plane but I really really suck at build threads, because my builds tend to be sagas because of my flagging mojo!

Anyway, for those who have picked up this plan and think: "what a simple build!", well yes that is right but there are a few sticky points. Here is another: the stab with its tapered and curved main spar. According to every post I have seen on this plane, the stab tapers UP, kinda like a Fokker DVII wing (flat on the top).

So I gave all curved parts a 24 hr. (because I forgot about it) 104 degree hot-tub bath. When I remembered the stuff in the tub, it was nice and limp. I set the curve for the main spar by wrapping it on a lamp shade. The stab outlines are stripped 1/16 sheet doubled up and dunked in Tite-bond, then wound around a coconut-oiled form. I am going to build this stab by tilting the spar flat and doing it on side at a time if you follow me.

It ought to turn out to be a very elegant but overworked part of the plane. I am going to do all my mounting ala rubber-bands and skip the magnet scene. I am also going to be running my DT by you guys sometime soon but lets not hold the breath please...

Oh don't be misled by the first pic. that spar is dead flat across the bottom I am just holding it at an angle to hold the background!
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
Logged

The Threadkiller!
Crabby
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 132
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,081


Topic starter
I never met a modeler I didn't like



Ignore
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2019, 04:42:02 PM »


Oh don't be misled by the first pic. that spar is dead flat across the bottom I am just holding it at an angle to hold the background!

I MEANT TO SAY DEAD FLAT ACROSS THE TOP!  Roll Eyes
Logged

The Threadkiller!
OZPAF
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 177
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 4,973



Ignore
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2019, 07:27:25 PM »

Elegant little devil of a tail plane Smiley You'll hate straight lines by the time this is finished Smiley

John
Logged
Crabby
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 132
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,081


Topic starter
I never met a modeler I didn't like



Ignore
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2019, 02:32:11 PM »

Stab almost done, it took a while to wrap my brain around doing this, but once I got it, it went really well. On the main curved spar I went from the intended flat middle to a v-shape, so I could build one side flat on the work-surface, then rock it and do the other side. Of course I had to make a small incision in the outline and do a minor crack to get the thing to behave right. While doing the job I soaked the turbulator spar in the hot-tub, then wrapped it around a metal water bowl and cooked for 2 hrs at 250 degrees. I got a pretty convincing curved chunk of 1/16....Oh well another day another dollar. Still have to sheet the mid-section and do all the DT hot-rodding! If anyone can tell me one good reason to taper the stab this way please indulge me! This build has been a good example of simple not easy! My bones are not pretty... I am a glue-gusset man, compliments of "Thee Olde Man"! I will be playing some Latin cha-cha rhythms as I warm up to the dance steps of "The Sanding Block Mambo" pretty soon!
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
Logged

The Threadkiller!
Crabby
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 132
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,081


Topic starter
I never met a modeler I didn't like



Ignore
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2019, 05:11:15 PM »

Here is a stick-pic I took of my Spit P-30, It looks like a toothpick tree. I has been a fun build overall but I must say the challenge was in the balance of form and function in the stab area....I still have to noodle out the DT...It is slowly coming into focus... I used to complain about guys using DT's because I thought they caused forest fires...in reality it was because I couldn't wrap my mind around how to do it. And there are non-flammable ways of going about it. Anyone with contact info on a good non-flammable DT timer please chime in! BTW... I still think the flammable ones are chancy to use in an area where dry brush and wind are factors in the environmental equation!
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
Re: P-30 Spitfire wing questions
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 06:21:19 PM by Crabby » Logged

The Threadkiller!
OZPAF
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 177
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 4,973



Ignore
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2019, 07:37:37 PM »

Very artistic!. You'll need a DT for sure.
John
Logged
flydean1
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 17
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 913



Ignore
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2019, 08:33:24 PM »

FAI Model Supply, Volare Products and others have viscous "timers" that work very nicely.  I haven't used a fuse in over 25 years!
Logged
Glenn (gravitywell) Reach
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 34
Offline Offline

Canada Canada

Posts: 795


It ain't pretty, but its me!




Ignore
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2019, 12:58:48 AM »

Crabby!  Do you really read Bridal Magazine?  Whats this world coming to? Grin  Love the model by the way.
Logged

Glenn Reach
The only time you want Guillow's balsa, is when its worth its weight in gold!
randoloid
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 8
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 123



Ignore
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2019, 11:42:38 AM »

Here is a stick-pic I took of my Spit P-30, It looks like a toothpick tree. I has been a fun build overall but I must say the challenge was in the balance of form and function in the stab area....I still have to noodle out the DT...It is slowly coming into focus... I used to complain about guys using DT's because I thought they caused forest fires...in reality it was because I couldn't wrap my mind around how to do it. And there are non-flammable ways of going about it. Anyone with contact info on a good non-flammable DT timer please chime in! BTW... I still think the flammable ones are chancy to use in an area where dry brush and wind are factors in the environmental equation!

I’ve just recently switched to viscous timers as were mentioned earlier and totally agree they are superior- not only because of fire concerns but also consistent timing and reliable functioning. They are more effort to get setup but well worth it
Logged
Crabby
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 132
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,081


Topic starter
I never met a modeler I didn't like



Ignore
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2019, 07:31:13 PM »

Glenn, I just look at the pictures.... Roll Eyes   AND....Why are they called viscous timers?
Logged

The Threadkiller!
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!