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Author Topic: Scale Rules Review  (Read 1515 times)
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DavidJP
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« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2019, 12:22:26 PM »

"What would entice me to enter?"

Free tea and biscuits? Roll Eyes

(Flippancy included  Smiley )

Chocolate ones?  And Assam tea.

I wonder how many "scale modellers"  there are from which we could entice some to enter?  I get the feeling not that many?   Not sure about that kind of enticement 3v - might discourage others and you want a fairly level playing field.  Otherwise not really a competition is it.

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FreeFlightModeller
Russ Lister
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« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2019, 12:53:15 PM »

I would make it chocolate Hobnobs for you David.

I can call to mind a good few scale modellers that do not compete but yes, they would probably not ever be tempted.
In fact it's surprising how many really good scale modellers do not compete ... even if you do not count the "retired" ones.
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RalphS
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« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2019, 03:30:47 PM »

I am a not a dedicated scale flier (I much preferred Coupes and these days r/c flying) but I have done a bit.

Why just kit scale? There are lots of excellent "simple" scale models that have been published in various publications through the years. So combine kit scale with published plans of scale models up to a specified wingspan. Call it Semi-scale rather than Kit Scale. Have some simplified rules to specify materials e.g. no introduced foam parts or commercially available bits except for plastic props (for practical reasons), any covering, paint, decals, okay.

Plus and minus points for variation to plan and power unit similar to present that the builder can apply to a simplified scoring sheet completed by the builder to allocate marks for attention to the plan and instructions, Leave a single empty box/es for a judge to allocate "impression", "quality", "appeal", etc.   I found the sight of 2 judges taking all day to assess models, many of which they have seen before to be pretty pathetic. The variation in Kit-Scale static scores from one year to the next for the same model showed that it wasn't the model that had changed but the varying opinion of the judges year to year.

Any cheating - instant dismissal.

Have "themed" events for each competition year e.g.- aircraft up to 1918 one year, next year 1919 to 1945, racing aircraft, naval aircraft, etc., etc. This to encourage people to build another model and "Fike" type models cannot dominate the flying.

Like outdoor BMFA events, why not have de-centralised type contests?  Indoor flying seems to take place regularly all over the country and indeed the world. If people don't want to go to a central venue due to cost, inconvenience, etc., have simplified themed contests that allow more people to just have a go with a simple league type contest. I would suggest that it is kept to just UK entrants or the Czechs would win them all (just joking - but only just!). It might encourage a few people to think about competing at the Indoor Nats. Use the BMFA magazine to promote and report.

Keep Open class but perhaps call it Superscale. ("Open Scale" is very 1940'ish.) Keep the difficult Pistachio and Peanut classes (heavily USA influenced I think) for the true artists, perhaps there are some other classes somewhere in the world waiting to be discovered that might spark some interest.

Just floating ideas.

Ralph
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billdennis747
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« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2019, 04:27:03 PM »

I largely agree Ralph.
I introduced the Mass Launch event at the indoor nats years ago and it began as WW1 types (KK and Veron) and then B of B. They were popular and a spectacle. There was one more but then it fizzled out and it became anything goes, including NoCal. It might be time to try it again, with KK/Veron/VMC
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TheLurker
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« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2019, 05:02:30 PM »

Quote from: FreeFlightModeller
...modellers that do not compete...
Count me in that number.  A number of reasons, but the principal one is that this is something I do for fun and relaxation*.  Competitions mean deadlines, of which I have a surfeit in the day job, and all the tension that goes with such things. The absolute antithesis of fun in my estimation. 

Fascinating discussion though, even for us non competing types.

Cheers,
Lurk.

*We will overlook the oaths, blasphemies, curses and imprecations that are uttered when a wing is proving a swine to cover or when an inadvertently placed thumb breaks some vital part of the airframe. Wink
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FreeFlightModeller
Russ Lister
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« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2019, 05:33:48 PM »

I think it is the deadline aspect that I struggle with.
I describe myself as an "appointmentaphobiac" ... this might even exist as a real condition?
At one point a trip to the barber would give me sweaty palms.
Ridiculous I know.
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cvasecuk
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« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2019, 05:16:16 AM »

I actually get more enjoyment out of competeing than than just "sport" flying and wish I lived nearer to Walsall.
Ron
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DavidJP
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« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2019, 06:33:39 AM »

I think Ron distance for some of us play a par - but look at the guys in the US - driving for a couple of days?  Easy!!

Thinking about it more though in my case it is inertia! Out of the habit!
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TheLurker
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« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2019, 06:55:45 AM »

Quote from: cvasecuk
I actually get more enjoyment out of competeing ...
Oh, I'm not anti-competition and it'd be a shame if an aspect of the hobby that many enjoy faded and died. It just seemed to me that there were a lot of posts from people who really enjoy competitions and couldn't understand why others weren't more interested so I thought I'd chip in.

Quote from: cvasecuk
... and wish I lived nearer to Walsall.
Interesting you should say that.  There was a recent editorial (AM or BMFA News) in which it was remarked how central Walsall was and therefore a good location and my very first reaction was, "Not if you live in Scotland it's not."  and I did think that for Northumbria, Cornwall and some parts of Wales* it would also be a long** old trek and would be likely to require at least one night, possibly two nights, B&B which, apart from the time involved, racks up the cost quite quickly.  

I suspect Walsall may be the best compromise between location, cost of hall, size of hall and availability so there may be no practical alternative, but a competiton moving between a more northerly location and more southerly location on alternate years might encourage a higher average attendance.  It'd be a swine to organise though.

I'll shut up now.

Lurk.

*Even trips from the bottom RH corner are likely to be "fun" by the time you factor in London's Outer Orbital Car Park.
**Obviously not by antipodean or transpondian measures, but for this tight little island these are vast distances. Smiley
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SP250
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« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2019, 02:44:15 PM »

Well Lurk -

When you decide to do the organising, then you can have it where you like.
But the core of people who compete now; some come from Bristol and others from the Norfolk coast, South and the North, so I don't see a large group of indoor scale modellers waiting in Newcastle on Tyne for the event to be held there before they enter (or anywhere else).

But these are the issues any Nationals organiser has to deal with and quite frankly, at a B&B cost of £36 per night, the fuel bill will be 2 or 3 times that.
So the cost of an overnight stay doesn't really count as an argument againt the event.

John M
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FreeFlightModeller
Russ Lister
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« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2019, 03:40:09 PM »

It is luck of the draw with the location of an event, but I do have sympathy with those for whom the travelling distance gives problems.
The National Cycling Track Championships used to be held at Leicester... I could go down on my bike to watch ... come back for lunch and watch it on live TV and then go back for the afternoon. I still haven't made it to Manchester for indoor flying or cycling.
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TheLurker
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« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2019, 05:16:37 PM »

Quote from: SP250
So the cost of an overnight stay doesn't really count as an argument againt the event.

It really depends on your month to money ratio doesn't it?  I'm lucky, I have more money than month, but your hypothetical 36 quid a night + petrol (say 15 quid) + food would more than wipe out my aeromodelling stipend for the month.  As for organisation, yeah it's a hard one, very and I know I couldn't do a better job, but if people will ask for ideas. Smiley

I really will shut up now.
Lurk.
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FreeFlightModeller
Russ Lister
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« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2019, 06:16:34 AM »

I won't address anyone personally, but I do not like to see anyone leave this forum.

Life is too short ... we do this for fun, so let's move on ....
Come back.
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Jack Plane
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« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2019, 04:07:55 PM »

I'm late this thread, although I did previously email my views on this subject to Andy Sefton which he forwarded to Doug, Mike, etc.

I have no particular gripe with any of the established classes and their respective rules and don't think that anything  needs to change, except that - from direct experience in KS - I consider it unfair to judge the flying of CO2 and electric powered models against their rubber equivalents.

Everything else being equal (including theoretically the model itself), both CO2 and EP possess such a very different power-profile and duration compared to rubber, which puts rubber-powered models at a demonstrable disadvantage.  In my own case I very much doubt either my VMC Camel or my Lee's Hobbies Bristol Scout could ever be configured with rubber to deliver the duration, height or realism of speed etc as they did with the benefit of CO2 and EP respectively.  Beyond my own efforts, I believe that Dan Mellor's successes with CO2 in the KS class over the last few years substantiate this.

How then to level the playing-field?

I've suggested a split between rubber and CO2/EP in KS, rather than creating any sort of Advanced KS or evolving a handicap system (frankly if someone has 'mastered' KS to any real degree then they're surely ready for Open).  I don't know how practicable this would be (especially given John M's point about organisational and judging issues), but the 'rules' side of the equation wouldn't need to change in the slightest:  static would be judged in the same way as would flying in each of the power-source rounds, the only organisational change would be an extra table in the flying-schedule and results sheets.

If this were to take place for future events, I don't know how many entrants there'd be in the KS CO2/EP category (maybe, initially at least, the same as Open CO2/EP?), but I'd hope that more folk would gain confidence and support both sub-classes, AND entrants in the rubber KS class could at least be judged against their own ilk.

Jon

PS Open has long been perceived - in my own mind at least - as a big leap.  It shouldn't be, just read the rules and play by them, which is exactly what I intend to do for my first entry/ies in 2020... and learn to use a spray-gun!  But Open does 'suffer' in my view from departing from the romance of relatively quick to make, tissue-covered models of our youths towards the scale perfection of (dare I say it) plastic models.  It takes a some kind of mental-shift to accept this, which leap I hope to achieve in the near future.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 04:17:56 PM by Jack Plane » Logged
FreeFlightModeller
Russ Lister
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« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2019, 04:37:10 PM »

I very much agree with your observations, Jon.
The only thing I would say is that CO2 is very good when it is very good ... there is a degree of re-trimming to compensate for conditions in the hall on the day and it can give problems (ask me how I know!). With this extra difficulty in mind, I feel that the potential superior flight pattern is "well earned". So I would not necessarily put all the superiority down to the motive power. "Best placed Rubber" or "Best placed CO2/electric" awards could be given within the usual "all in" competition?
As I have said before, these are the reasons I wouldn't like to see the open classes combined.
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DavidJP
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« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2019, 05:29:41 PM »

From my limited experience I also agree.  I take Russ' point about Co2 and there can be no doubt that Electric is the most stable and reliable and i have found it so with small models.  An electric model will almost certainly fly in a regular pattern assuming none of the surfaces have been altered.

As I understand it the idea for a merger is due to time and judging etc.  There is nothing wrong with the rules as they apply to the actual competition - it is circumstances?  Am I right in also thinking that the number of entries is such that they hardly meet the costs but take up the time.  Increasing the number of entries would be nice, and help more with costs but will increase the burden on judges and organisers.  So increasing the number of "staff" maybe the route?   

 
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