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Author Topic: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019  (Read 3359 times)
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billdennis747
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« Reply #150 on: September 05, 2019, 04:03:25 PM »

Why are they penalised in RC scale?
Pete, it´s a totally different scenario. In RC, gyros are used to smooth  out manouevres, not to make the model fly in the first place - the pilot does that.
Thanks- I'm sure that's true, although when I asked my dad if his model having a gyro meant he could fly more comfortably in conditions he'd previously have considered too windy, he said yes.

Yes, that´s the smoothness of flight. I´d love to know what Martin (one of our most experienced judges) thinks about all this.
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #151 on: September 05, 2019, 05:16:45 PM »

I shall ask him and report back. He didn’t judge at Barkston this year of course. He asked me what I thought about gyros though and, not having entirely decided, I thought I said something to the effect that I wasn’t really sure. Then Terry Manley sat down and Dad said, “What do you think of gyros in free flight scale, Terry? Pete reckons they should be illegal!”
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Indoorflyer
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« Reply #152 on: September 06, 2019, 12:41:40 AM »

Having n-axis stabilization where n=1 to3, is a form of mechanical doping!
Indoor, that´s exactly what I was going to say but for the sake of everyone else who doesn´t understand, could you explain please (!!!)

I made my comment in the context of bicycle racing:  Two strong climbers are in a  race to the summit, one just pulling ahead in the final stretch. Later, it's "discovered" the winner actually had a small electric motor boost hidden in the bicycle frame.  The argument is: he had cheated, and won with an active, mechanical performance "enhancement."   Now what if it were also discovered that a good portion of the peloton  had employed motor boosts on their bikes as well? Makes the contribution of a motor  somewhat vague; apparently works better for some riders and their bikes than others.  Puts the second place guy in an interesting spot: he won the "noble" race, but not the event trophy!  The sanctioning body voids the result (everybody is a loser) and issues a new rule: no motors. (by now our second place guy has retired from cycle racing and moved on)  The first place guy starts a new company that builds motor assisted bicycles, for a newly formed, sanctioned category of racing!   Lots of new, young riders join the "e-bike" racing ranks...(Taking it to an extreme here, to make a point)

It all boils down to:  what should the coefficient of friction be, on that slippery slope?"   Reminds me of those word games where you replace one letter at a time, creating a succession of different words, until you have a completely different set of letters and a new end word...

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billdennis747
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« Reply #153 on: September 06, 2019, 01:55:11 AM »

Having n-axis stabilization where n=1 to3, is a form of mechanical doping!
Indoor, that´s exactly what I was going to say but for the sake of everyone else who doesn´t understand, could you explain please (!!!)

I made my comment in the context of bicycle racing:  Two strong climbers are in a  race to the summit, one just pulling ahead in the final stretch. Later, it's "discovered" the winner actually had a small electric motor boost hidden in the bicycle frame.  The argument is: he had cheated, and won with an active, mechanical performance "enhancement."   Now what if it were also discovered that a good portion of the peloton  had employed motor boosts on their bikes as well? Makes the contribution of a motor  somewhat vague; apparently works better for some riders and their bikes than others.  Puts the second place guy in an interesting spot: he won the "noble" race, but not the event trophy!  The sanctioning body voids the result (everybody is a loser) and issues a new rule: no motors. (by now our second place guy has retired from cycle racing and moved on)  The first place guy starts a new company that builds motor assisted bicycles, for a newly formed, sanctioned category of racing!   Lots of new, young riders join the "e-bike" racing ranks...(Taking it to an extreme here, to make a point)

It all boils down to:  what should the coefficient of friction be, on that slippery slope?"   Reminds me of those word games where you replace one letter at a time, creating a succession of different words, until you have a completely different set of letters and a new end word...


Thanks!
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billdennis747
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« Reply #154 on: September 06, 2019, 01:58:33 AM »

I shall ask him and report back. He didn’t judge at Barkston this year of course. He asked me what I thought about gyros though and, not having entirely decided, I thought I said something to the effect that I wasn’t really sure. Then Terry Manley sat down and Dad said, “What do you think of gyros in free flight scale, Terry? Pete reckons they should be illegal!”
I can hear Martin saying that; the master of the quiet wind-up!
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Jack Plane
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« Reply #155 on: September 06, 2019, 02:00:43 AM »

Well expressed Indoor - and Chris earlier too.

The problem as I see it is that a handicapping system (such as that sensibly expressed previously) would have to be equally artificial to compensate, but this would have to fine-tuned over a number of years and models to arrive at a satisfactory balance, and even then there'd be an unease.  If there were larger numbers of participants in the discipline generally, then this would be a quicker process.  Then again, if the numbers were there in the first place, the fairest solution would be to just split the class into two - much as electric/CO2 flying is separated from rubber in indoor scale - but I don't imagine they are.

All rules distort competitions in some ways or others.  This isn't a problem in say chess or motor-racing (here, despite the constant advance of technological edges, the vehicles are all essentially the same), but presents us aero-modellers with a dilemma as we have a terrific range of types of full-size aircraft to choose from.  Do we model subjects which interest us for personal reasons (romantic, aesthetic, technical, historic, etc), or do we just choose those which stand to gain best from the class rules as they are at any given point?

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billdennis747
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« Reply #156 on: September 06, 2019, 03:08:13 AM »

 Do we model subjects which interest us for personal reasons (romantic, aesthetic, technical, historic, etc), or do we just choose those which stand to gain best from the class rules as they are at any given point?
I would guess most of us do the former. I am lucky in that the aircraft from periods that interest me generally have a reasonable chance.
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DavidJP
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« Reply #157 on: September 06, 2019, 07:59:24 AM »

Now things have moved away fro the orignal concept (what to do about gyros in `FF Scale) if they are allowed in RC Scale then is it not wide open for a move away from the original skill of building and flying a model appropriately (i.e. how the original flew) to one where any "gizmo" is allowed to assist the pilot even though nothing of the kind appeared in the original full size?  My impression is that disregard of the builder rule is now overlooked or condoned? OK that seems what people want so the "purist" does not bother with it?  Does it matter?
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Bryanair
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« Reply #158 on: September 06, 2019, 10:08:19 AM »

 My impression is that disregard of the builder rule is now overlooked or condoned?
[/quote]

Not in Free Flight or R/C Scale as far as I know David.

All entrants have to sign a Competitor's Declaration Form stating which parts of the model they did not make.  The BMFA Scale rule book page 3 section 6.1.1.3 goes into detail about the builder of the model rule.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #159 on: September 06, 2019, 10:22:14 AM »

My impression is that disregard of the builder rule is now overlooked or condoned? OK that seems what people want so the "purist" does not bother with it?  Does it matter?
No it isn´t, no they don´t, yes it does. See Bryan´s reply
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #160 on: September 06, 2019, 11:45:29 AM »

But David, please feel free to tell my dad, who has installed a gyro in his latest biplane (and over the last 60 years has probably built and flown more self-designed RC scale models than anyone else currently competing) that he is “disregarding the builder rule.”  Grin
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« Reply #161 on: September 06, 2019, 05:12:21 PM »

DJP

Don't know where you got the idea that the BoM rule was disregarded or overlooked.

Certainly in all UK scale competitions, exept flying only, it is a requirement. 
F4H or standoff now allows ARTF's but you have to recover or repaint to be allowed. 
FAI international rules, changed this year, still require BoM in F4C, but now not in F4H which all the western countries did not want. 
Like having a world championship class for beginners - which is a complete nonsense, may as well have a flying only competition. 
Basically someone with deep pockets can now buy last years WC winner in F4C and give it to the top aerobatic/pattern flyer and he can win the WC at F4H - totally bonkers.

John M
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« Reply #162 on: September 06, 2019, 11:08:36 PM »

I'm not a FF scale flyer but enjoy FF sport models . FF scale intrigues me because of the added difficulty of trimming the models - which as Chris and Bill have pointed out requires a better understanding of flight - the essence for me.

My personal opinion is that Gyro assisted FF models should have their own separate class - eventually with a separate FAI category as they are not FF models but are autonomously controlled models- no more FF than a similarly controlled RC model.

If stabilized models are accepted in FF scale then it would be theoretically possible to fly RC scale models in the class.

The next step for these models may be to incorporate a mini GPS receiver and flight computer so that a pre programmed flight path can be set up, with the model flying circuits over a set point - regardless of the wind. Hardly FF.

I hope common sense prevails

John



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DavidJP
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« Reply #163 on: September 07, 2019, 08:17:14 AM »

Oh dear what a booboo.  Senior moment and all that for which I apologise and understand your rebukes. I had (honestly and truthfully) meant to say “at International level” or similar (cannot remember exactly). 

Well I didn’t really did I Pete but OK I will as my punishment for misleading you all.  Introduce me at next opportunity!

By the way one reason I have the notion of the BoM being disregarded at International level is a picture I saw years back of two contestants, looking  at what appeared to be a manual for the model.

Again my apologies!
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billdennis747
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« Reply #164 on: September 22, 2019, 07:15:57 AM »

A month after the event and there are still no official results.  Is there a problem?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 08:13:09 AM by billdennis747 » Logged
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« Reply #165 on: September 22, 2019, 09:25:11 AM »

I did prefer the old ScaleBMFA site ... updated by Gordon I understand? Give me an "old fashioned" "static" website against these mobile sites that jitter and jump about so nothing seems to be in the same place twice.
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« Reply #166 on: September 22, 2019, 09:28:10 AM »

.... having said that, one of my sites was last updated in 2005 ... so forgive my hypocrisy!
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« Reply #167 on: September 22, 2019, 09:33:30 AM »

I think the custodian of the web site does have an impact.
We have just lost Tony Beckett .... he maintained the PMFC website superbly. A sad loss as an nice person and aeromodeller ... not sure how he will be replaced as administrator of the website.
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« Reply #168 on: September 22, 2019, 09:54:48 AM »

Russ

The old website was run and updated by Ian Pallister not Gordon Warburton. 
Certainly over the last 5 years or so, since I have been on the STC and agreed to take over website updates a year ago.

One reason for having the new site, was to reduce costs, as it is an off-shoot of the main BMFA one and the STC does not have to pay for a domain name or extra website hosting fees.  Many clubs take advantage of this offer as well.

Not quite sure I understand the reference to things jumping around - every thing has remained in the same place other than tidying up the downloads section and the results.  Please address any complaint regarding results to Jo Hallman, as all results now follow her directive of where and how they are displayed.

Cheers John M


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Russ Lister
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« Reply #169 on: September 22, 2019, 11:29:57 AM »

Jon,

I'm just expressing my preference for the older type of website.
Not a criticism of anyone ... more a compliment to Gordon and Ian. What's not to like about a website that was almost invariably updated within a day? The point I was making was that simple and efficient may not be as fancy as some of the modern sites, but the job gets done.
I'll have to demonstrate a jittery site next time I see you!
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« Reply #170 on: September 22, 2019, 11:35:35 AM »

..  I understand the cost saving aspect BTW  Smiley

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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #171 on: September 22, 2019, 12:35:43 PM »

Obviously the website is very clear to a sharp minded individual like me, but I think someone who was not quite so known for his quick thinking and was just browsing the website to see the scale nats results would easily be fooled into thinking they could just go to the 'Contests and Events' tab, then choose 'Contest Results- BMFA' and then go to 'scale', and then to '2019', without realising that after 'Contest Results- BMFA' they need to click on 'British National Championships' before they go to '2019' and onlythen go to 'scale'. Like I said, crystal clear to me, but some people do need spoon feeding.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 12:58:01 PM by Pete Fardell » Logged
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« Reply #172 on: September 22, 2019, 01:02:46 PM »

I think it's time for the old backstop .... I think it's my device. Roll Eyes
Even your very helpful spoon feeding didn't get me there, Pete.
I get folders that won't open.
My last proper job was Estimator, CAD Draughtsman AND IT Manager ... I estimate that I should have drawn the line before I took on IT ...... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #173 on: September 22, 2019, 01:08:22 PM »

To be serious for a moment, could you post a link please ... I really cannot open any results  Sad
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billdennis747
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« Reply #174 on: September 22, 2019, 01:33:06 PM »

Anyway, when you get there, the results are partial, and provisional. When they come through, I hope to see all six flights.
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