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Author Topic: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019  (Read 3357 times)
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Squirrelnet
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« Reply #50 on: August 27, 2019, 07:44:40 AM »

Thanks Bill and congratulations on winning the IC class and for placing in all 3 classes.  Grin Grin

Ron I missed the TSR2 but hopefully someone got it
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SP250
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« Reply #51 on: August 27, 2019, 11:56:12 AM »

Bill

Correction/confirmation to your posted final positions above.

Derek Knight was indeed third in Rubber with the Auster.
But it was Mike Smith second in CO2 Electric with the HP 0/400 not Ivan with the TSR2.

I will post all the scores on the scale website as soon as I have them electronically.
Please bear in mind that they will be PROVISIONAL until posted up and stated as final/official/checked etc.

A big thanks to Paul Hoey, the scorer, after Gordon Warburton's retirement, for taking on a thankless task. 
Paul was new to the job, working in hot, adverse conditions for 3 days, (one laptop had to be put in the freezer for 30 minutes so it would boot up after a thermal shut down).  The excel programmes were new for FF and still being tweaked for RC.  CL wasn't done so had to be calculated manually.  So please bear with us for the delay, as Chris Allen is not home for a week and all the score sheets have to be checked for input errors etc. before any results can be called official.

Regards John M
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2019, 04:23:16 PM »

Great photos, Chris- thanks. And thanks for the provisional results Bill, and John and team for all your hard work.
I think I was fairly close to Derek even with my poxy static score, which gives me encouragement. Just need to build a similar HWM to the Comte but to a higher standard and with better documentation, and I might scrape a podium position one of these years.

Anyway- one more (not very sharp) pic from me: Mike Smith’s second placed electric HP 0/400 in action.
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Tim Horne
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« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2019, 07:05:29 PM »

I managed to get to the Nats on Saturday for the first time in about ten years and had a great evening. Very hot weather! Superb models and some great flights (and good company too Smiley).

Here is what I managed to get on camera. Some photos first. These were taken as everyone was arriving and models were being fettled and fueled.

Pete Fardell and his Comte AC-4 "Gentleman"
Stephen Glass (3-view) Typhoon and Chipmunk.
Paul Briggs SE5a.
Ivan Taylor and his fleet. "Claude" TSR2 and Zero. Andrew Hewitt and Eindekker behind.
Mike Smith with HP 0/400 and Sopwith Snipe.
Bill Dennis and Bucker Jungmann, Caproni and RE8.
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Tim Horne
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« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2019, 07:16:20 PM »

Chris Brainwood (Squirrelnet) and Tomtit. Lovely model!
Gareth Tilston with E111 Eindekker.
Ricky Bould's (DHnut) Auster and Comper. Sorry I didn't get them on video Ricky Sad.
Stan Mauger's Vickers Vildebeest. Superb.
A view of the watching crowd. There seemed to be plenty of spectators to me but I don't have recent experience to compare it to.

That's all my photos.
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Tim Horne
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« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2019, 07:32:54 PM »

I took some video too. These are of variable quality (I mean the filming. Judge for yourselves the quality of the flying Wink).
I missed a lot of take offs. Too many things happening at the same time to catch it all! The first vid is of Ivan's hugely impressive TSR2 which I mostly missed filming completely or missed the launch! I have included it even though it's only part of the flight as it's so good to watch.

Ivan Taylor's TSR2 https://youtu.be/VMz8FEKBGus
Bill Dennis Caproni Ca100 https://youtu.be/FDmMjmT5Sio
Stephen Glass Hawker Typhoon. https://youtu.be/7OH-19NOdus
Bill Dennis Bucker Jungmann https://youtu.be/LGL6ced_0QI
Pete Fardell's Comte AC-4, second flight. https://youtu.be/RiY0f6YoZ2A
Pete's Comte again, 3rd flight. https://youtu.be/QBSdnsP41j4
Ivan Taylor's Zero. https://youtu.be/zOB06Bx-F3w
Ivan Taylor's Zero, Into the Sun! https://youtu.be/gWS9AfHsK0g This was the last vid I got as my camera battery ran out; but for me it sums up a perfect end to a summer evenings flying Smiley.

Tim
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2019, 07:44:01 PM »

Great stuff, Tim! Thanks very much for photographing and filming. I agree your last video is particularly joyous: Ivan’s Zero flying like the mean hunting machine it is with Ian Lever’s plucky Auster suddenly entering stage right and blithely practising a few loops!
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billdennis747
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« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2019, 03:41:52 AM »

That last one! It´s a shame you can´t frame videos, but I couldn´t help thinking it looks like it´s heading for Brazil
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« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2019, 04:03:59 AM »

Thanks Tim ... the videos particularly captured the atmosphere of the evening. Smiley
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« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2019, 04:15:02 AM »

What happened to Typhoon at the end of the flight? It suddenly entered a spin after a very smooth flight? The film is not sharp and unclear in this moment.

Marcin
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billdennis747
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« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2019, 04:18:04 AM »

What happened to Typhoon at the end of the flight? It suddenly entered a spin after a very smooth flight? The film is not sharp and unclear in this moment.

Marcin
Battery failure. The model is untrimmed and unstable - the gyro keeps it flying, until it doesn´t.
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cvasecuk
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« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2019, 04:53:54 AM »

Thank you Tim. I am very envious of you all being able to witness a wonderful display of free flight scale modelling in such lovely conditions.
Ron
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« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2019, 07:21:38 AM »

Thanks everyone for posting and uploading the photos and videos of this event - I've just been wallowing in them. Oh - I nearly forgot - thanks to those who made and flew the models which made the pics and clips possible Cheesy.  There are some absolutely lovely models there.

Stephen.
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« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2019, 09:31:05 AM »

Looking through a book of aircraft I regularly look at, I found myself including subjects that could be gyro stabilised ... is this stabilisation something that will be allowed to continue ... either included in normal competition, or in a separate class?
There is something quite entrancing about that "someone in the cockpit" feel they give.
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Jez Wilkins
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« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2019, 09:51:34 AM »

... is this stabilisation something that will be allowed to continue ... either included in normal competition, or in a separate class?

I think that there were some posts recently, in another thread on here (can't remember where though - maybe somebody else knows) that it was a bit of a 'watching brief' at present, to see how matters develop?

Thanks to all for the pictures and video links - the true spirit of aeromodelling. Smiley

Cheers,

Jez Wilkins 
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SP250
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« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2019, 10:07:12 AM »

Russ

We had a vast amount of discussion on the STC about gyros in the RC classes and last year was the first for them to be allowed. 
A 1.0 vs 9.0 K factor penalty was applied to the scoring if you used a 3 axis gyro.  This proved to be far too harsh. 
This year there is a 50% penalty (5 to 9) and it seems about right.  Although it is a work in progress and further tweeks may be needed.

The situation in FF is that currently there are no penalties on the K factors.  However in future there may need to be to "level the playing field".
As it is emerging technology in FF I do not see that they (gyros) would be banned in the future or penalised beyond use. 
In a nut shell, it is current RC tech and here to stay, so should be embraced with a suitable leveller for those not using one. 

Also as a heads up, I have also (personally not at STC) had a discussion over the use of a quad electronics board and their ability to "return to home" and circle above launch point to be used by some clever person so that the FF model will be circling in the same spot all flight long and eliminate the long downwind retreival for those with older legs.  I assume that the model will just head into wind longer and turn faster when going downwind to keep the circle centered on the launch point.  Watch this space I suspect for someone clever at electronics to give it a go.  This is really only an extension of the FF electric motor profiler which many people already use.

John M
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« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2019, 11:00:43 AM »

Jez,
Yes, I think I have seen some of the discussion ( I suffer from information overload with what I have read and where!)
I was wondering if any further thoughts had been put forward in the light of performances at the Nats.
Jon,
Thanks for the update on the current situation.
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DavidJP
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« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2019, 05:12:33 AM »

I wonder if condoning the use of “emerging technology” is the thin end of the wedge if it is on the basis of it is only an extension of what we use already because when you think about it just about every is such an extension.  I am not sure then where you draw the line.

Free Flight scale was easily defined at one time and so easily understood. Because there was little or no technology anyway and none capable of the things of today.   At what point do you say that is free flight and that is not.  Introducing penalties  is I think not the way to do it but separate classes would not be practical. Again then probably down to good sense and understanding. And we seem rather good at that.
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SP250
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« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2019, 06:16:24 AM »

David

In essence a 3 axis gyro is only an electronic version of pendulum control which started probably in the 40's / 50's.
Some people don't want it because they don't understand electronics - but some people can't build bespoke mechanical pendulum set up which works either.

The use of a 2.4gHz RC Tx and RX with an ESC to cut off power to an electric motor (or and IC engine with a servo) is just a straight forward easy to apply solution to having a complicated mechanical device on board to cut the electrons to the motor.  Simple, straight forward and anyone can do it.

So I don't understand the intransigence of some competitors to the technology advance in using readily available items for an easy life. 
There are always pioneers and then the majority foliow suit when the stuff is widely available' as happened with motor profilers from Atomic Workshop and K&P with indoor electric powered models.

John M
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« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2019, 06:44:19 AM »

Quote from: DavidJP
I am not sure then where you draw the line.
I don't think we can, nor should we. If we do we risk turning aeromodelling into a fossil hobby and for a hobby that has always embraced new technologies that would be rather sad. 

From what I've seen the controlled adoption of newer technologies into competition models is the only sane thing to do and, as you say, refining class definitions will prevent unbalanced competition.

I think cost may be the biggest concern. It doesn't affect non-competing types like me, but if you need expensive* technology just to be competitive then there is a risk that you reduce number of people who can afford to enter competitions and given that lack of entries to competitions is a recurring topic I can't see this being a welcome development.

Lurk.

*"Expensive" is a subjective measure.  My "horrendously expensive" is another's "dirt cheap".
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DavidJP
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« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2019, 09:16:04 AM »

Yes.  I hope my ravings came across as simply “thoughts”.  I am not a competitor of any note and am not entitled to grind any axe.  I use things like Atomic Workshop boards etc. Bowden for example used radio.  As did most of that generation - a “natural” thing to do.

I suppose my concern is that by embracing technological developments we do not lose the concept of “free flight”.  Have I got it right though.

An electronically controlled cut for the power source is not going to enhance the flight.  It is simply a more efficient and reliable method.

I am not conversant with electronic pendulum systems and don’t know therefore if I could make one. I did make a bare mechanical pendulum system years ago but it only “worked” to stabilise the model after a fashion but that could have been down to me.  Is there a simple drawing or explanation please of how to make an electronic pendulum system please. I might have a go.  I take it that this system is solely on board and stabilises the model with no remote “interference”?

So that enhances the flight but is really just like down or side thrust but a little more sophisticated - it is continually making adjustments but at its own command.

Now as Lurk says cost could be a concern and result in a form of elitism.  Certainly I think this has happened in FAI where apparently to be competitive you need to spend thousands on models ready to go from Ukraine.  So should the builder of the model rule include the electronic aids?  Hmmm. Could get complicated!  I certainly could not make from scratch a board of the type sold by Atomic Workshop.  Don’t have the soldering skills for a start.  But those boards are probably comfortably within everyone’s budget.  So what about a ceiling for the price of a bought component?  Honesty will play a large part of course.  But it does anyway.

Presently the FF Scale community seems a friendly and sensible crowd.  I am a little concerned though that fragmentation does not start occurring due to the relaxation or acceptance of devices that might be regarded as “not quite cricket”.

How essential are these devices.  We see many models flying beautifully in all senses without any electronic aids.

Well I suppose these aids assist the producing of models that otherwise would not be attempted because they will otherwise not fly!  Now if the competitor with such model gets a bonus for the type of model but has not built the “device” which helps it to fly well so suffers a penalty is that not reasonably fair?  If he has entered a challenging model with a home built “aid” he does not suffer a penalty.  He benefits from being skilful which is the name of the game anyway.

I am not sure I agree with your claim Lurk that we should not draw a line. That can apply to aeromodeling generally but  not I think to FF Scale.  For it to retain the ”image” it has to be free flight.
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Bryanair
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« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2019, 11:16:21 AM »

The PROVISIONAL Results have been posted for all scale classes (RC, FF & CL) flown at last weekend’s August Nationals.

Look here https://bmfa.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=3280&language=en-GB&PortalId=0&TabId=1584
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billdennis747
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« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2019, 12:17:59 PM »

The PROVISIONAL Results have been posted for all scale classes (RC, FF & CL) flown at last weekend’s August Nationals.

Look here https://bmfa.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=3280&language=en-GB&PortalId=0&TabId=1584
Thanks Bryan. I guess that, as an actual competitor at the Nats, my individual email alerting me to the results ( a week after the event)  has got stuck in the pipes.
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« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2019, 12:32:22 PM »

Bill

You need to subscribe to receive email news updates.

https://scale.bmfa.org/provisional-nationals-scale-results
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billdennis747
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« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2019, 01:01:39 PM »

Thanks Brian. I didn´t know that but my point was, I shouldn´t have to
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