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Author Topic: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019  (Read 3377 times)
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billdennis747
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« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2019, 01:24:40 PM »

The situation in FF is that currently there are no penalties on the K factors.  However in future there may need to be to "level the playing field".
Now we´ve seen them, it is clear that the playing field cannot be levelled
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billdennis747
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« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2019, 01:28:37 PM »

In essence a 3 axis gyro is only an electronic version of pendulum control which started probably in the 40's / 50's.
Except that it works, in all conditions
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billdennis747
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« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2019, 01:35:07 PM »

So I don't understand the intransigence of some competitors to the technology advance in using readily available items for an easy life.  
There are always pioneers and then the majority foliow suit when the stuff is widely available' as happened with motor profilers from Atomic Workshop and K&P with indoor electric powered models.
I haven´t seen any intransigence prior to the Nats; just a concern that our activity which has continued with ups and downs for 70 years and is currently healthy, is under very real threat. Nobody flies FF scale for an easy life.
There is no comparison between a timer and s stability device
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Squirrelnet
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« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2019, 02:11:37 PM »

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There is no comparison between a timer and s stability device

I agree with you on this Bill, I think the successful use of Gyros has be very clearly demonstrated to be a game changer. It's really not like pendulum control or other mechanical stabilisers or timers.

 Personally I would like to see some form of points penalty which attempts to level the playing field a bit. We can't roll back the clock and nor should we but I would like to see traditional FF scale models continuing to be competitive and the use of gyros limited to previously un-trimmable designs. How you police that I'm less sure of. I have to say, as well, the work put in by some to make gyros work is inspiring and the results stunning. I wouldn't want to take anything away from that or stop it's progress

BUT as I have said before without some form of scoring system to take the advantage into account the logical conclusion of this is a Piper Cub with 3 axis gyro and throttle control, and a GPS board capable of taking off and landing back at the pilots feet. It could probably even fly a pattern with an inverted pass over the judges head.

In my ideal world the two can exist side by side but it needs some thought and some sort of points benefits for flying without gyro assistance.

Just my two pennies worth





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no1dieselman
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« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2019, 03:18:35 PM »

I had to go back and read it a few times before it sunk in. Gyros, whatever next. This is free flight after all it is supposed to be difficult and the skill is to chose the model and trim it for successful flight. Now some are saying bunging in a gyro is fair because it's progress. Come on lads don't poison everything. I would ban them in rc  as well. If you judge flight performance it should be the pilots skill that makes the difference, not the gyro set up.
I think electronic stabilised and programmed flight should be a seperate class, it is the only fair way to do it.
Doug
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ZK-AUD
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« Reply #80 on: August 31, 2019, 03:19:57 PM »

I didn't see any pictures or details of Derek Knight's Auster.  I'm guessing it's nice.  Size, details, performance anyone?
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Squirrelnet
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« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2019, 03:32:43 PM »

Sorry I seemed to missed it off my upload...here it is

Derek's  Auster scored well in the flying, though I missed seeing myself. It was 3rd in the rubber class
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: BMFA Scale Nationals 2019
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2019, 03:36:42 PM »

Thanks for the results link. Top flight score in rubber will do me nicely thank you!

On the other issue, I'm frankly astonished that there is to be no seperate scoring provision made for models using gyros. Don't get me wrong- I loved watching Steve Glass's flights, and also Ivan's, and look forward to seeing many other previously tricky/impossible subjects in action in the years to come. But Steve's beautiful Typhoon simply fell out of the sky as soon as the gyro battery failed didn't it? Maybe I'm missing something here though as I know next to nothing about either the technology or history of it. It won't affect me directly till people start using them in scale rubber models I suppose.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 05:24:30 PM by Pete Fardell » Logged
Yak 52
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« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2019, 03:39:44 PM »

...performance anyone?...

Hi Mike, I was chatting to Derek about it today and he said it goes well in calm weather but he decided not to bother flying it today - admittedly in 18mph gusting 28mph!

Jon
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billdennis747
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« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2019, 03:45:15 PM »

Mike, it´s the (very) old Aeromodeller plan
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DHnut
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« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2019, 04:49:35 PM »

We in NZ have been discussing this and the correction of the electric parameters in the F4A rules. The thinking is that any new players will have an inclination towards electric power, and use electronic pendulums are now a fact of life, offering some positives in that it allows the building of models with known stability deficiencies. Surely anything that encourages new comers must be good
We already use bonuses for multi engine models so we see no reason that some form of loading could not be used to manage this development. By their very nature these are not going to be easy models to trim initially and this has been already shown.   
The availability of components will occur from the drone world as it already has and at an affordable price so those concerns are met. The availability traditional materials may become more difficult. 
Let us embrace change because ignoring it will not help.
Ricky
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DavidJP
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« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2019, 05:50:54 PM »

I had not realised gyros had been used in FF models.  Again I don’t have a full understanding by any means of how they work or what they can do in a FF scale model.  I have though flown those little indoor helicopters which without a gyro would be uncontrollable almost. So I would be cautious about them.  In drones gyros would appear essential are they not?

I don’t think Ricky it is a case of ignoring change - it is how we accommodate it to keep the field level.  And I would I think be opposed to doing away with the well established FF culture just to attract newcomers.  Let them do something else.

I do not really care about radio now but in principle if flying is part of the contest (as it should be) then how can an aid to help one fly better be allowed.  Possibly only in the case of the full size aircraft being similarly equipped.  But that would need some studying.

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DHnut
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« Reply #87 on: September 01, 2019, 03:04:01 AM »

David as usual an insightful comment. The challenge we have is that is that these new capabilities open up new possibilities but the current FAI rules are not clear on what is allowable. They are currently struggling with the whole gyro ( stablising device ) issue in R/C. The models at the Nationals were only single axis and still required trimming so there was no fundamental change in the process. What I found encouraging was the variety of entrants, the best in many years
What seems to have changed is the approach that sets boundaries but leaves the decision to the modeller as to what they do. I have made kit scale models and elected to paint them knowing I will be penalized but still entered. The current rules have tended to favour certain catagories of model but that appears to have started to change for the better with the use of the electronic pendulum. None of those flying were easy subjects to trim. The only other option would be to start to change tail surfaces to get stable flight but incur a static penalty as a result.
What is pleasing these changes are being discussed together with the means of managing them.
Ricky
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billdennis747
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« Reply #88 on: September 01, 2019, 03:26:22 AM »

The models at the Nationals were only single axis and still required trimming so there was no fundamental change in the process.
 None of those flying were easy subjects to trim.
They are easy to trim. In fact Steve told me they are completely untrimmed, with a cg nowhere near. The gyro fixes everything. Last year, Ivan´s Claude crashed because it was out of trim fore and aft - nothing to do with the gyro ailerons.
The Typhoon is dual axis.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #89 on: September 01, 2019, 03:34:58 AM »

The current rules have tended to favour certain catagories of model but that appears to have started to change for the better with the use of the electronic pendulum.
It is fairer to say that free flight favours certain categories of model. Our rules are remarkably open compared to others, which have an abundance of bonuses and whatever is the opposite of bonus. You build what you want and take your chances. That´s been the attraction of FF scale to me, up until now, anyway.
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DavidJP
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« Reply #90 on: September 01, 2019, 04:57:43 AM »

The current rules have tended to favour certain catagories of model but that appears to have started to change for the better with the use of the electronic pendulum.
It is fairer to say that free flight favours certain categories of model. Our rules are remarkably open compared to others, which have an abundance of bonuses and whatever is the opposite of bonus. You build what you want and take your chances. That´s been the attraction of FF scale to me, up until now, anyway.

I think I go with that.  Although it might take a while to evolve I would be very disappointed to see an erosion of FF Scale as we know it.  I would have thought the bonuses and whatever is the opposite (penalty?) adequately covered the situation.  Yes like you Ricky I would paint a kit scale model simply because that is the way I am.  And take my chances with the rules which I consider both remarkably clear and fair.  I think also over recent years we have seen quite a change in the models now presented in free flight scale - for the better- dihedral being the most obvious. Tail surfaces have been made more scale as well and many models now appear that at one time were considered untouchable.  All without electronic gizmos.  So ingenuity rather than technology can overcome? But that is not to say we discard technology - we accommodate  it fairly.

Possibly I am wrong but my concept of FF Scale is that it exploits the overall skill of the modeller. The ability to produce an accurate well built realistic looking well  correctly flying model.  So if skill is to play a significant  part the use of certain aids that are not conceived and made by the modeller should be taken into account.  My other fixation is that the “winner” should be the “best” not the one with the fattest wallet.  Just old fashioned I guess?
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RalphS
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« Reply #91 on: September 01, 2019, 05:21:38 AM »

I can't see what the problem is.  Just have another class for stabilised FF.  This would apply to pendulum, floating rudder and electronic - so no blurring there.

It would introduce a complete range of new models (and perhaps modellers) rather than the need to keep modelling the same old biplanes or YHWMs. 

I have seen the fantastic effect of gyros in the tiny (about 20" span) r/c P51 and Suhkoi, etc., ready made foam models that handle so well they seem to fly on rails in the windiest conditions.

Good luck to Steve Glass and others who are capable of adapting new technology.

 

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vintagemike
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« Reply #92 on: September 01, 2019, 05:25:19 AM »

Just a thought, isn't it called Free Flight Scale? ie free flight with no artificial means of control?
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #93 on: September 01, 2019, 05:40:02 AM »

I was talking about this with my dad at the nats because he now fits gyros on his big rc scale biplanes. In RC I think they take a big points hit on their take off and landing scores, but for him it’s worth it because it makes flying feasible on much windier days. He says it’s a bit like flying in near ideal conditions all the time. I think most of the biplane flyers were using them. (Sorry, that’s probably just muddying the waters as far as FF is concerned!)

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DavidJP
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« Reply #94 on: September 01, 2019, 06:10:21 AM »

"I can't see what the problem is.  Just have another class for stabilised FF.  This would apply to pendulum, floating rudder and electronic - so no blurring there."

I think the only problem Ralph is the "admin" and judging - not enough "bodies"!

Pete, I think your point, rather muddying the waters, explains why gyros are rightly penalised.  Old bi - planes would not have had gyros, but relied on the skill of the pilot against the conditions.  I recognise though you cannot have scale wind!  And it also illustrates the flexibility of the rules - by all means use a gyro but you will be penalised.  For my part I would be likely to go that route.  My model would be for use outside competition as well so if it meant I could fly with less risk because of my lack of ability then fine!   
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« Reply #95 on: September 01, 2019, 06:18:09 AM »

I attended the FF Indoor Scale Nats this year for the first time. The flight realism between the rubber and electric classes was very marked. Once you have a battery on board there are innumerable aids available. Perhaps the Electric Class should include any model that has electronic flight assisting gizmos??!! I would not include motor cut in this as it does not change the flight profile.
Ron
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billdennis747
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« Reply #96 on: September 01, 2019, 06:22:38 AM »

I can't see what the problem is.  Just have another class for stabilised FF.  This would apply to pendulum, floating rudder and electronic

I agree Ralph, although just for gyro models - the others either don´t work or are certainly not reliable. The problem is there aren´t enough models to sustain such a class. Maybe a solution for the time being, until all these hordes of people attracted by gyros materialise, is to have them in the FF class but just separate out the results at the end. Same number of judges needed.
Trying to find a way of ´levelling the playing field´is futile.
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Squirrelnet
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« Reply #97 on: September 01, 2019, 07:09:06 AM »

Quote
Maybe a solution for the time being, until all these hordes of people attracted by gyros materialise, is to have them in the FF class but just separate out the results at the end. Same number of judges needed

Sounds like a sensible and practical solution
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DavidJP
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« Reply #98 on: September 01, 2019, 07:17:22 AM »

Bill, you say levelling the playing field is futile.  Is this just in the case of gyros?  It seems to me that otherwise the levelling method we have is OK but of course not perfect.

Obviously I don’t have the benefit of your experience so could you elaborate a little please?  And when you say separate  out the results at the end that is when all gyro equipped models are end up  judged against each other alone and not with the “others”?
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Mike Thomas
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« Reply #99 on: September 01, 2019, 07:34:17 AM »

I have just tried looking to the FAI for a definition of free flight, but couldn't find one which was absolute. For instance, the basic definition appears to be (paraphrased) a "form of flight with no external interference after launch". Thus on-board gyros would be acceptable for free flight models. I had always understood however, that for the FAI in particular and for national associations generally, a free flight model must not employ any closed loop on-board system. On that basis, I imagine, gyros would not be acceptable, and neither would a pendulum system. Yet there is a class of model, magnet steered glider (F1E), which is a free flight class operating on a closed loop guidance system.

In other words, I don't think that at the moment, there is a fundamentally coherent and absolute definition of free flight. Any such definition would of its nature be quite independent of what current or future technology may offer and would provide the basis for the rules by which the various classes operate.
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