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Author Topic: My first F1R  (Read 533 times)
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Flyguy
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« on: August 29, 2019, 03:34:56 PM »

Indoor flying begins again next week, so I have to get going on the F1R if I'm ever going to try it this season, have a few pics I can post; A6 (with new prop) and F1L (also with new prop) are ready to go!

I have one question that I'm hoping I can get some help with. I see that the booms are basically set straight with the fuselage, i.e., no raising it at rear or right-turn offset, in contrast to A6 and F1L (mine at least). So apparently all the turn is from the stab tilt. Is that enough? I need to keep it in 20-30ft circles at most, so is the stab tilt sufficient to do that? Just want to be sure, thanks in advance for any help!
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Rossclements
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2019, 03:46:26 PM »

I find that my booms warp in some direction after gluing, so I'll normally use the warp to help get some rudder deflection in. My F1R uses a stab with dihedral at the tips with no rudder, so the curved boom and stab tilt gives me the turn. On models with a flat elevator, people will often offset the rudder for turn if needed. The turn mostly comes from stab tilt though. My model does circles in the 20 foot range.
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Flyguy
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2019, 04:02:59 PM »

Thank you that's enormously helpful - sounds like a little bit of left (meant left, not right above) won't hurt, which is what I was leaning towards. I glued the boom while on the form so it's pretty straight, still fits on the form, so I'll do a little bit of left. The boom fits into the fuselage tube nice, seems like it will just need a pindrop or two of thinned ambroid to hold it, that way I can always thin it with a little acetone and re-angle it if need be, but from what you say it sounds like I shouldn't need more than an itsy bit of left, thanks!
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2019, 02:45:02 AM »

My F1R uses a stab with dihedral at the tips with no rudder, so the curved boom and stab tilt gives me the turn.

Offset the tail posts if you need to adjust the amount of "rudder". In my indoor models I aim for having a wide open turn when there is no tilt (adjusting the "rudder offset" to reach this), and then I add tail tilt if I need to tighten the turn for a smaller flying space.

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Flyguy
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2019, 09:27:14 AM »

Thanks Tapio, that's helpful. I put in a little rudder and will put in a little stab tilt when that's made, seems like that should do the trick. I can always increase the tilt if need be to tighten the turn, as you mention.

Some forms I made a while back to get going - first is for the wing, then the stab/rudder/ribs, finally one for the fuselage and tail boom. They are all 1/16" bass, and I like to seal them with a couple of coats of dope, so water doesn't do anything.
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2019, 11:24:49 AM »

One more thing that may not be obvious: make sure that your tailplane is flat or has warps the same way as wing (port tip slight wash-in). It is easy to have the tail warps reversed to those of the wing, and that efficiently kills the turn, requiring huge amounts of tilt or rudder to compensate. One thing that helps the turn and to maintain the proper warps is to offset the tailplane sideways to inboard, the same way as the wing is offset.
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Flyguy
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2019, 01:41:03 PM »

That's good advice, thanks, will keep that in mind, I'm working on the stab now, let's see how it goes (pretty fast, not much to it!).

Below is my prop block, I think it's important to form both the shape and the pitch while the balsa is nice and soaked (I used to do it afterwards years back, but I think this is better). Second photo is frame I made for covering the prop, formed it on the pitch block.
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Flyguy
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2019, 07:45:16 PM »

First thing I made was the fuselage/tail boom. Did a practice run with some crappy balsa, then some actual attempts. I didn't use my best/lightest balsa (i.e., the best Greenman stuff, thanks Nick  Wink), saving that for after the learning curve! I made both a 5mm and 3/16" fuselage, the latter was lighter, given its smaller, so that's the one I used. I used some .008 for the boom, but it was 4.8 lb, I'm saving the .007 4lb stuff for the next one!. First photo shows fuselage and tail boom, I used a .008 wire pigtail Joshua offers on his site. Fuselage as shown was .13 g, tail boom was .075 g (should be able to get that down to .05 with the lighter balsa).

Second photo is a prop blade in the jig, I've made a few blades so far.
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Re: My first F1R
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Flyguy
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2019, 12:31:55 PM »

Here's the fuselage/boom together (boom is flat with a little left) with the tungsten bracing (hard to see). Weight as shown is .21g

Next are two prop blades and a hub. For the hub, I rolled some tissue on .047 wire, put in a little balsa hub, put in the .008 wire, then lightly soaked the tissue with a little thin CA, turns it semi clear and it almost looks like plastic tubing. Final photo is the completed covered prop, blades held in the hub with a dot or two of thinned ambroid. weight of finished prop is .088g.
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Flyguy
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2019, 03:52:21 PM »

Ok, got the stab, wing, rudder ready to go, really nothing to them, longest part was making the outline and letting it dry. Came out nice, which makes it hurt more when you screw them up during the covering! Only good part is that it takes no time to rebuild them. off to the basement, fingers crossed...
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Flyguy
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2019, 10:22:19 AM »

Close call, almost screwed up the wing, but I avoided tragedy this time - a few days ago, when I leaned over a sprayed prop blade to pick it up and put it on the covering frame, I forgot that I had my reading glasses in my top pocket, of course they landed squarely on the blade, so that was the end of that!

Only took a few minutes to get the stab/rudder on the boom, second photo. Put on the prop and motor and got the CG, so it's ready for the wingposts, I've noticed that with wide wings, to get a say 5% margin of stability, the wing ends up being pretty far back.
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LASTWOODSMAN
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REAL PLANES HAD ROUND ENGINES AND TWO WINGS



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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2019, 10:46:56 AM »

Hi Flyguy!   Your covering in the first pic, looks really well done !!   Shocked Shocked   Thanks for all the pics!

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OH, I HAVE SLIPPED THE SURLY BONDS OF EARTH ... UP, UP THE LONG DELIRIOUS BURNING BLUE ... SUNWARD I'VE CLIMBED AND JOINED THE TUMBLING MIRTH OF SUN-SPLIT CLOUDS ...
Flyguy
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« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2019, 11:15:03 AM »

Thanks Richard, covering is always hit or miss with me - it's either perfect or a disaster, there's never any in-between! Just hoping now that I don't screw up the wing posts and we're ready to go.
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Olbill
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« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2019, 11:22:09 AM »

I wouldn't be tempted to try to remove the little wrinkle in the wing. A little saliva or super thin 3M77 will pull it out but will probably deform the TE on such a light model.

Anyway both parts look great!
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Flyguy
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« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2019, 11:43:10 AM »

OK I shouldn't say 'perfect', got excited there! I did a little saliva on the frame when I let the wing sit on the board overnight, but mostly just to keep it nice and flat. I think you're right that saliva-ing out any little wrinkles, though tempting, might distort it, so I'll leave it alone. Now I remember why I gravitated as a kid from microfilm to EZB (back when EZB's were heavier), A6 and F1L feel like lumber after this, so they are a bit more relaxing!
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Flyguy
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« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2019, 06:38:25 PM »

OK, finished! Total weight is .52 grams, I wasn't going for superlight on the first one, so I'm pretty happy with that weight, I can lighten the fuselage and boom on the next one by using lighter balsa, this almost has me thinking of trying to find some Y2K film as well, haven't needed it for A6 or F1L because they are already at the minimum weight, but no minimum here. But let's see how this thing holds up flying-wise, seems pretty fragile, but it flew in a living room test! I tried a .5g motor but it seemed too much, was heading for the ceiling with not too many winds, so I'll probably go a little lighter, like .4. Trying out my new A6 prop has top priority when flying starts, but after that I'll give this thing a shot!
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Skymon
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fly it



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« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2019, 05:10:31 AM »

Super job Flyguy!
520mg is pretty awesome for a first build. The wood on an F1R is very fragile and tough to work well with.
Your build looks really neat, the prop especially, I guess you are using FP as the blades seem to have a bit of offset to get a little torque twist.
All of your planes are very neatly built.

Y2K film sounds like a great idea for F1R, but there is not a lot of covering on one of these little planes, so it won't make a lot of difference.
I am sure there are some scraps floating about from those builders who make the bigger planes.
I've been promised some pieces but nothings ever turned up.

When you say 0.5g motor, is that g/m?

I fly a very similar plane on 0.75g/m rubber - about 250mm long, looped and tied.
Should be over 2000 turns on a full motor.

You're brave flying one of these in a living room - going to be a lot of bouncing off walls.
Not sure mine would survive that.

It's fascinating building these planes and tweaking the materials to lower the mass.
My props are constantly heavier than they need to be.
I need to use some Greenman wood for the next parts.
All my parts so far have been from scraps of average wood.

When will you be flying it in a large space?

Si
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Flyguy
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« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2019, 12:39:51 PM »

Thanks Si, your F1R thread was fun and informative to read. Yes, the blades are fixed and are flaring, I thought I should start with that (also I'm a bit of a skeptic and am not convinced that VP is needed, aren't the current records with a fixed prop?). I also have a VP F1R hub from Joshua that I can try later, that was part of the motivation (and it might make me take back what I just said about VP!).

I'm going with an 11" motor, seems fairly typical, and the total weight of that was .5g, people seem to use in the range of .35-.5g. I put on about 600 winds and it climbed, seems like it should be at most in the cruise phase at that point, so I made a few .35g motors to try.

It is interesting to find out where you can tweak it to lower the weight. In my case, most of the weight saving should come from using lighter sheets for the fuselage and tail boom (i.e., the good Greenman stuff). The second plane is where you figure out a lot of that stuff!

I remember years back from microfilm that some people really went nuts and built incredibly light, one puff of air and it's gone! That's probably the nice part about minimum weights, seems like .6 gram would be a good minimum for entry F1R, still pretty light but not that difficult to get to, and it would be a little sturdier. But it was fun to shoot for under .6, I'm surprised that it got close to .5, of course I'm already thinking about saving another .1 on the next one!

Flying in NJ at Teaneck starts tomorrow, but the humidity is supposed to be over 70% so I think I'll wait until next week to give it a try!
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Skymon
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fly it



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« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2019, 06:14:26 AM »

My building takes the iterative approach too.
I built four sets of F1R prp blades, dropping weight each time.
I couldn't quite believe the wood sizes to start, so I chunked it up.

The VP gives you more duration in lower ceilings apparently.
Having seen Tony Hebbs model circulate for over 20 minutes under a 30ft ceiling, I am confident it works.
However, I have no idea how to make that tiny little marvel actually work well.

So I'm on fixed for now.
There's a lot to be learned about rubber and props just winding and watching.
I can cruise nicely with FP and adjust winds for no touch flights, creeping up to the ceiling.
But I put the VP on and I nose dive.
I put my lightest blades on the VP and some heavier ones on the FP - so they are identical mass, but still the VP dives.


It's interesting to note that F1R has no material restrictions, but I have yet to see anything apart from Balsa on them.

I wonder when carbon will creep in. I wonder if it will, it's pretty dense and would need to be in tiny, tiny sections.

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Flyguy
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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2019, 12:20:24 PM »

My building takes the iterative approach too.
I built four sets of F1R prp blades, dropping weight each time.

Yes, I'm doing the same thing, kind of got it down now and the blades go together pretty fast. I used .017 x .020 for the prop outline and ribs, so I don't think there's much more to do there, probably could narrow down the spar a little more, but I want to see how it flies first before I do that. Main savings appears to be with the hub. The original, on the left, was rolled on .047 and weighs about .028g. I made a new one on .040 wire, trying to use the minimum of tissue, and this one, on the right, weighs .019g, so that's good. The vp hub weighs .045.

It's interesting to note that F1R has no material restrictions, but I have yet to see anything apart from Balsa on them.

I wonder when carbon will creep in. I wonder if it will, it's pretty dense and would need to be in tiny, tiny sections.

I hope carbon doesn't creep in, I thought I might have to use boron on the wing, but it looks OK so far, we'll see. I think F1R might escape the hi-tech materials because it's pretty small, the benefit probably kicks in for larger models like F1D.

Interesting about the diving problem you're having with the VP, it's not the weight so I wonder. It might be awhile before I get around to trying the VP hub, but I'll eventually report back on what happens.
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Skymon
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fly it



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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2019, 07:14:37 AM »

I tried and tried to get the prop down in weight.
I used .017 square outlines in the end.
and .017 ribs.
My biggest issue was the spar.

Quality wood in thinner sections.
My spar is 60% of my prop weight.

I used 4.5# wood and tapered from 1.2mm to 0.5mm and my hub uses polyimide tubing, not tissue.
So I need to stay 1.2mm diameter at the large end.

I am off to fly in the UK NATs tomorrow, so I';ll see how it goes Smiley
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Flyguy
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« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2019, 09:26:43 AM »

Good luck at the NATS! I'm curious about the polyimide tubing, I've seen it mentioned before but I don't know anything about it. The lightest hub I've made so far with CA'd tissue and .008 wire is 19mg, how much does one with the tubing weigh? the lightest prop (including hub) so far is 80mg.
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