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Author Topic: Guillows kit 505 Messerschmitt Bf-109  (Read 3039 times)
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steveneill
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« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2019, 01:55:56 PM »

Watching! Hard build I know.
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« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2019, 05:40:48 PM »

I have been diverted a bit. Spring is here and it has been very cold for Spring. I do not like the cold as much as I did when younger. The weeds are spreading rapidly and were getting out of control so they had to be dealt with. There is only me at home now so my time is spread thinly.

To repeat some information I posted on the DPCM Sopwith Pup thread;

"On the bf109 front. A lot of research into the ‘D’ model flown by the Swiss has revealed a lot of conflicting information even though there is very little info about the C and D models anyway. Most of the ‘fake news’ is in the terminology. The D is a development of the C model of which very few were built. Some C and D models were sent to Spain for trial in that war. All of the C models were powered by a Jumo 210 ( it seems) and some D models were similarly powered and some were powered by an early DB 601 (or DB 600). Out of that mish mash of info it is clear the Swiss Bf109 D aircraft were powered by the Jumo 210. There appears to be little information about the Jumo 210 but quite a bit about the Jumo 211. The 211 IS NOT A VARIANT OF THE 210. The Jumo 211 looks the same as the 210 but it is actually physically larger. It was used to power the JU87 and other bomber types.

Currently drawing new fin, rudder and tailplane for my bf109 because the kit is completely wrong. The engine end looks a bit like a B, C or D But the tail end does not."

The first step in correcting the two ends of the fuselage was to find believable 3 views and and colour profiles. The best two were laid over and under the Guillows plan for comparison. See the attached images.

In addition I realized the Guillows kit tailplane is also wrong. I features fully rounded tips whereas the real airplane was more angular. I am currently working on a revised tailplane which has much the same shape as the real thing and has the same or slightly larger area than the kit version. Doing that made the root chord a bit larger so the fin is also affected. Not done yet.

The third image is a clip from TurboCad.

In all images the Guillows plan details are shown in black.

And I forgot to add: According the a Luftwaffe manual for the bf109C3, the engine may have 1 degree 20 minutes upthrust to suit the alignment angle needed by the engine mounted cannon. This it not clear and not very important for model purposes. The illustrations in the manual do not actually show an engine cannon but there were a few attempts to get successful operation of a cannon with various examples of these early bf109 aircraft. To check more I will need to translate the original German which is printed in an old style font, (think Old English). Not doing that anytime soon.

The bf109C3 manual came from here and there are many others:

https://www.avialogs.com/aircraft-m/messerschmitt/itemlist/category/581-bf109?start=13

You will need to subscribe if you want to download the manuals.



Paul

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« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2019, 03:05:55 AM »

The week just gone has been rather busy and exhausting with non-modelling activities but I have managed to get a little bit done.

The two attached images show my final decisions in making more representative tail surfaces for the Guillows bf109. In the tail plane image, the original Guillows tail plane outline is shown in magenta and my revised design is in black. The other parts of the image show parts of two reasonable 3-views I found on the internet.

In the fin and rudder image, the original Guillows design is shown in blue and my revised design is shown in black.

Both images are 300 dpi and should print at the correct size on most printers. If needed you may have to select 300 dpi in the printer configuration.

Paul
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« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2019, 06:46:48 PM »

A little bit more progress; the fin, rudder and tail plane are done.
 
The nominal thickness of all components is 1.2 - 1.3 mm.

The rudder is hinged with small pieces of cotton bias binding (45 degree threads) which is a bit difficult to handle because it squirms as you try to move it into position. I will use a small piece of aluminium wire between the rudder and lower fuselage to hold rudder settings.

The elevators are hinged with 1/8" polyester ribbon and short pieces of Kraft paper covered florist wire ties. I did a glue test with the polyester ribbon and it stuck acceptably well with the Gorilla carpenter glue that I am using, possibly because the glue squished into the gaps between the threads. I have trimmed the excess ribbon after taking the photo. I had a go at trimming the Kraft paper but decide to stop because there was a risk of breaking the balsa.

The special ribs for locating the tail plane bracing struts are a bit wider that what I had hoped for but so be it.

Total weight of tail frame work is 0.66 grams.

Next are the wings while I still think about what is to be done about the fuselage nose.

Paul
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« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2019, 10:33:23 PM »

Paul if I can share what I do to hinge the control surfaces on these small models,  I use 10 amp fuse wire.

Process is simple:

1. using  a pin or fine number drill carefully bore a hole through the outline and into the spacers beyond at your hinge points and matching holes on the other surface.

2. cover the surfaces

3. cut lengths of fuse wire about 1.5 - 2.0cm and insert halfway into the holes of one surface - and apply a tiny drop of cyano on the end of a pin to hold them.

4. offer this up to the other surface and insert it carefully into the corresponding holes

5. using a brush,  paint slightly thinned RC56 canopy glue into the hinge line - this will hold the 2 surfaces together and remain flexible - there is no need to cyano the other half
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« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2019, 03:43:46 AM »

Thank you for the suggestion Mike. I will try it again sometime. I have tried to drill length wise holes in balsa without much luck. The fine drill tends to follow the wood grain and sometimes ends up drilling a hole in my finger. It may be possible to have more success with my small Proxxon drill press but I have not yet tried that.

I should also have mentioned the spars and ribs enclosing the hinge tapes and florist wire ties are laminated from two pieces of nominal 0.65 mm hard balsa. The bendy bits are glued to the first layer and when the glue is dry enough to limit any displacement of them, the second layer is applied with fresh glue.

Paul
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 04:22:53 AM by RolandD6 » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2019, 05:23:32 PM »

Your build is looking great and should be a good flyer.  Guillows are definitely not a competition model, but they are fun to build and fly out of the box.  My BF109 was built out of the box, no modifications and it is the older die cut kit.  I used the kit tissue and painted with Testors acrylics and she flies pretty good on the supplied prop.  Like I said will not win any contest but consistently flies over 20 seconds.  I used to build Guillows kits and replace all the parts and make modifications so it would fly better, by the time I was done making mods she did not look like a Guillows kit.  You can see the modifications from the Guillows BF109 below.  At the end of the day, I spent more time making all the modifications to gain a little longer flight, just was not worth it.  I enjoy building these models out of the box but for better flying models I would build the Diels BF109 or Golden Age Reproductions 109.  Once again the quality of your work is inspiring.  Keep up the good work.
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RolandD6
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« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2019, 07:32:06 PM »

Your build is looking great and should be a good flyer.  Guillows are definitely not a competition model, but they are fun to build and fly out of the box.  My BF109 was built out of the box, no modifications and it is the older die cut kit.  I used the kit tissue and painted with Testors acrylics and she flies pretty good on the supplied prop.  Like I said will not win any contest but consistently flies over 20 seconds.  I used to build Guillows kits and replace all the parts and make modifications so it would fly better, by the time I was done making mods she did not look like a Guillows kit.  You can see the modifications from the Guillows BF109 below.  At the end of the day, I spent more time making all the modifications to gain a little longer flight, just was not worth it.  I enjoy building these models out of the box but for better flying models I would build the Diels BF109 or Golden Age Reproductions 109.  Once again the quality of your work is inspiring.  Keep up the good work.

The model(s) look good but it looks like you are showing two different models, one with a balsa nose, reduced wood in the wings, and scalloped fuselage formers; the other with the plastic nose. I accept that the 'out of box' models will fly outdoors but I want to fly inside a single basket court sized gym with minimal excess space around the perimeter of the court.

Paul
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« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2019, 07:40:33 PM »

A bit more progress on the wings for my 109.

The first two images show the center section (CS) and the last the current state of the wings. I have positioned the completed CS over the plans as a guide for the rest of the structure. The LE, TE and bottom spar are not glued to the CS.

There is still more cleaning up of the LE and TE do be done and I have decided to not fit ailerons. Will take too long to do and adds weight were it is not desirable. I will use Gurney flaps instead. I have also left out the center wing rib. Seems like unnecessary weight to me.

Paul
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« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2019, 02:00:16 PM »

Paul,

You are correct, by pictures are of two different versions of the same Guillows kit.  You are also correct, built out of the box a Guillows 500 series model will not fly very well indoors.  I would definatley do what you are doing if I wanted to fly a Guillows kit indoor, I would probably replace the kit balsa with 1/20 parts and 1/20 stringers.  I started off early in my model building days building Comet, Guillows and Sterling kits out of the box trying to get them to fly not knowing what I was doing.  Once I joined the Scale Staffel and learned how to build and fly I did not touch a Guillows kit for years.  If I did build a Guillows kit I would completely redesign it to fly for max time and that is the picture of the 109 I posted with the balsa nose.  These days it is hard to find a flying field so I just build them out of the box and I am happy with the short flights in the small parks where I fly.  Once again your build looks great.
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« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2019, 11:01:44 AM »

scigs your story is my story . i was the only kid in the neighbourhood building kits  so i built them as per the directions with the wood provided. great builds lousy flights . occasionally i would do one on my own which on occasion worked.  then in my early 40's i came to NB and was able to join a flying club.  my builds improved overnite because i finally had people to talk to about my problems.

 jim Grin
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« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2019, 02:51:53 AM »

Current state of the project.

Wings nearly done. I have to figure out a different way of doing the wing to fuselage fillets (or not bother). A trial attempt using the kit templates was beyond what I could manage with my arthritic fingers.

Wing tips are 4lb/cub. ft. balsa. The original hard kit balsa is underneath.

Total weight to date is 7.6 grams. Don't know how that compares with an 'out of the box' build.

Paul
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« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2019, 05:16:51 PM »

I decided to try adding a little bit of blue foam to the wing roots in a perhaps forlorn hope that it would help me form some wing root fillets. The free edge of the foam is stiffened with 0.4 mm balsa. I used the cutout from the original laser cut sheet wood as a guide for marking out the rib shape, sanded the outer profile on a disk sander and hot wire cut the inner surface, (my free hand hot wire cutting is a bit rough). Final shaping of the foam and 0.4 mm balsa edge was with a piece of finger nail sanding stick spanning the adjacent ribs. The existing balsa structure was protected by thin adhesive tape.

Next step for the wings is a light coat of clear acrylic ink to raise and stiffen the wood fibers for final light sanding.

I am also working on the new nose structure. I plan to build in 1.5 degree down and right thrust. The adjustable thrust bearing can reverse that if needed.

Also starting to develop the printed covering design. I plan to try something little different to what I did for the Sopwith Pup wing covering. It may not work. The fuselage covering is another ball game . To date I have not tried to developed pre-decorated segmented pieces to cover compound curves, nor have I tried to stretch damp Tengujo tissue paper.

Paul
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« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2019, 07:00:44 PM »

Quote
I decided to try adding a little bit of blue foam to the wing roots in a perhaps forlorn hope that it would help me form some wing root fillets. The free edge of the foam is stiffened with 0.4 mm balsa. I used the cutout from the original laser cut sheet wood as a guide for marking out the rib shape, sanded the outer profile on a disk sander and hot wire cut the inner surface, (my free hand hot wire cutting is a bit rough). Final shaping of the foam and 0.4 mm balsa edge was with a piece of finger nail sanding stick spanning the adjacent ribs. The existing balsa structure was protected by thin adhesive tape.

That sounds like a light solution Paul. It looks neat. I often use masking tape as a protective layer of ribs for similar applications. It sticks well and is still thin.

It will be a light model and should fly well. I'm interested to see how you get on with the covering.

John
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« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2020, 02:06:18 AM »

I have not been sitting on my hands and have got a bit done since my last post.

I decided to not use all of the kit plastic molding for the engine cowling, just part of the air scoop underneath. Depending on which 3-view you believe, and by looking at available photographs; the front of the scoop does not line up properly with the engine exhaust ports. The ports can be fudged a bit as well keeping in mind they have an upward slope relative to the nominal horizontal fuselage datum line.

The cross section of the nose looks a bit too egg shaped in comparison to photographs and available three views but I am not going to try to adjust that because the new nose needs to blend into the existing fuselage profile.

I created a 3D CAD model of the proposed new nose that blends the existing fuselage cross section into the round spinner. I used the plan view and side view profiles as a guide to create a simple blend from one end to the other. The 3D model ignores the air scoop but does approximate the continuous contour inside the air scoop.

The new nose will be carved from soft block and the external contours will be guided by hard balsa pieces that conform with the side and top view profiles. I will be using 0.4 - 0.5 mm birch plywood formers at each end and contour gauges for intermediate positions. All of this will be set up in my jig which I will post when I get to that stage.

The first image shows the bits and pieces mentioned so far with the exception of the contour gauges. They have been printed on bond paper and have been laminated to give them a bit of 'body'. I have yet to cut them out. I used paper templates for the plywood and hard balsa parts stuck to the wood with 3M poster tape. The templates will be removed from the plywood after I have drilled four 2mm holes for alignment toothpicks.

In addition to the above I have been working on a technique to colour the tissue covering. Initially I looked at inkjet printing some white tissue but the dark camo colours were a bit problematic. I got what looked to be good results on Glossy Epson Photo Paper using the supplied ICC profile but that is a bit heavy for a model aeroplane. Plain papers were less convincing. The question of course is what do RLM 23, RLM 65 RLM 70 and RLM 71 actually look like. The best source for this information is probably in the plastic modelling world and that is where I ventured. I do have a physical copy of Federal Standard FS595B in the form of fan colour chips and various sources quote small variations of these chips as being similar to the RLM colours. A real boon.

An inkjet printer needs to work with white paper and Esaki White tissue paper is not white, (I don't have any anyway). I do have some good white domestic tissue of similar weight to Esaki tissue but it has almost nil wet strength. The printed colours may have come out 'right' but there are other issues to deal with.

I have decided to use 6 or 7.5 gsm Kozo tissue (Tengujo or Kizuki) coloured with Jacquard Dye-Na-Flow. Experiments to date suggest this combination is the best I have found so far. I will provide more information about this covering technique later when I am actually doing it. There may be issues that I am not yet aware of and do not want to mislead people. I have already done in other circumstances.

I used the services of this web site to get a good starting point for Dye-Na-Flow mixtures for the RLM colours:

https://sensuallogic.com/paintmaker

and this web site to help me estimate what artist colours a reasonably close to the available Dye-Na-Flow colours:

http://www.art-paints.com/

The person behind the last web site does not explain how the listed RGB values were determined but I have taken it on faith that what ever the method, it was consistent even if the actual values published are not technically correct, (what ever that may be).

I decided that some Golden Heavy Body acrylics were a reasonable match to some Dye-Na-Flow colours, at least for a red, yellow, blue, ochre, black and white and that turned out to be so, at least for this project.

The nominal equivalents for this purpose are:

Dye-Na-Flow          Golden Heavy Body

Brilliant Red           Cadmium Red Medium
Sun Yellow              Cadmium Yellow Primrose
Black                     Carbon Black
Cerulean Blue         Cerulean Blue, Chromium
Ecru                      Titan Buff
Titanium White       Titanium White
Ochre                    Yellow Ochre

According to FS595B, Dye-Na-Flow Scarlet is a good enough match to RLM 23 so no mixing is needed. The next four images show 7.5gsm Tengujo tissue coloured to represent the RLM colours. The mixture for each are shown and the tissue samples have been photographed against a white background. The comparison to FS595B was done with no backing to the tissue sample to avoid any influence by a background colour.

More work needs to be done to determine the best way simulating other details on the tissue covering.

More later.

Paul


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« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2020, 01:36:10 AM »

A little bit more progress.

The framework for the nose is in the jig. Very fiddly to get it right. A little bit of thin glue on the joints to hold the bits in place.

The next step is to carefully fit pre-hollowed balsa block between the plywood formers. The removable nose block will be completed when the basic structure is out of the jig.

Also have been experimenting with the tissue covering. Using a generous piece of 6 gsm Kizuki tissue, I managed to achieve a nominal finished weight of 15 gsm; not as good as I had hoped but acceptable. The extra weight is due to the acrylic plastic film I created including the red pigment in the Scarlet Dye-Na-Flow.

If that result can be maintained, the finished covering weight on the wings should be about 1 gram.
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« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2020, 05:18:11 AM »

I'm enjoying your careful analysed approach to this Paul. You should get a good nose contour with those keel pieces. However your work on mixing to get the right colours is well past my level of building. Nicely done.

John
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« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2020, 05:14:51 PM »

I'm enjoying your careful analysed approach to this Paul. You should get a good nose contour with those keel pieces. However your work on mixing to get the right colours is well past my level of building. Nicely done.

John

Thanks for the pat on the back John.

I have a long way to go yet.

Paul
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« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2020, 07:05:40 PM »

A little more progress. Wings are covered.

Not a spectacular success. There are wrinkles and the RLM 70 colour is not black enough. The small sample I made looked OK but clearly it was not right as you can see. The RLM 71 is reasonable as is the RLM 65 (early version).

The tissue paper is 6gsm Kozo and the colours are hand painted before the tissue was applied to the wing frame. In effect it is an acrylic film reinforced with koso fibres. I am using Jacquard Dye-Na-Flow which is a very thin acrylic paint with the properties of fabric dye. The main issue when doing this type of work is controlling the rapid spreading and feathering of a colour into an adjacent colour. This is not an issue when there is only one colour when the rapid spreading is desirable because it helps to even out the colour distribution.

The colour separation, spreading and bleeding was controlled by additives. I did the bottom first and from what I learned, tried another technique for the top surfaces. All future models will be more simple so the covering task should be easier, with the exception of one other model in the pipeline which is three colours with a metallic sheen. Creating a metallic background sheen should not be difficult because I did it years ago by accident and I do remember how it happened.

Finished weight is 3.73 grams. I have not covered the bottom centre section because I will be fitting some fill-in structure to eliminate the horrible gap in the fuselage profile.

Paul

i
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« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2020, 08:45:25 PM »

Amazing work Paul!!  At 3.73 grms you'll have to nail it down so it doesn't float away.
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« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2020, 08:52:14 PM »

Very nicely done, RolandD6 Grin Really like your attention to detail. What is the paint scheme you've chosen? Swiss or other neutral country? I think your printed tissue came out well. Really looking forward to seeing your bird to completion.

Cheers,
Rhys
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« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2020, 11:32:21 PM »

Thank you for the kind words Don and Rhys.

The colour scheme is for one of the Bf 109D airplanes that the Swiss purchased from Germany before WW2 began. Originally the aircraft were in standard Luftwaffe colours but with white crosses on a red ground. They found that was not sufficient to differentiate their Bf 109s from Luftwaffe aircraft so the red and white stripes were added.

The tissue is not printed. It is hand painted. There is more acrylic film than tissue fibres in the covering. The film was formed over stretched Glad Wrap and the film is mostly Jacquard Dye-Na-Flow. The Glad Wrap was only used to help form the acrylic film. It was removed before the film was applied to the model.

Currently working on the balsa nose that will replace the plastic one in the kit. The kit nose does not get close to the shape of the Bf 109D. Also I want a decent way for adjusting the inevitable side and down thrust.

Paul
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« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2020, 04:47:55 AM »

Sorry, RolandD6. If I had read your earlier post more thoroughly I would've known that your coloring process was far more involved than a "printed" one. Forgive me. It seems quite an intricate process...one that I would need to see to fully understand it.  Thanks for letting me look and learn. 

Rhys
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« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2020, 12:26:29 AM »

Quote
Also I want a decent way for adjusting the inevitable side and down thrust.

Paul, In a recent aeromodeller article - September 2019 Chris Edge P24, on E36 models. a down/sidethrust adjustment method was shown. Basically a stationary ball attached to the fuse and a  triangular mounting plate pivoted on it, with adjustments made by 3 screws at the corners. If a bead was used, pivoting on the front of the nose block with the shaft passing through it and 3 tiny screws on the front plate side and down thrust would be adjustable.

The screws would need to be tiny - from old watches, servos etc and perhaps it would take too much room or be too heavy or not strong enough.

However food for thought.

John
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« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2020, 01:41:26 AM »

Thanks for the tip John but I already have a pre-manufactured method that involves a PTFE ball, a length of tube and three set screws.

I will draw a sketch later and post it. Cannot do that now because I am not home.

Paul
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